1. MAKEDON@ubvm: Macedonian Discussion Mailgroup Announcement. 2. Macedonian Arts Council Notice. Comment: Below are details on a newly created discussion group, MAKEDON List. Its a continuation of the previous MAK-TALK group, with a few more features available so operation made easier, and distributions made more reliable etc. MAKEDON List is a welcome addition to our existing MAKNWS-L Macedonian News service. Rgds, Sacha sachz@raid.ctpm.org Sydney, Australia ================================ MAK-NEWS ==================================== Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Sacha Shopov Subject: This Discussion Group Zdravo Makedonci and fellow readers to MAKEDON list, A few words from the group coordinators. The configuration file on MAKEDON list has been adjusted. * Subscription= Open,Confirm * Send= Private The first line asks new subscribers to confirm their subscription by sending an 'ok' back to the list. This helps in sorting out problems with how the server interprets your email address, and saves on bounces in the future. The second line checks whether the person is actually on the group before distributing their post. This saves on misdirected distributions such as new subscription requests etc. This is why the first line is also important since it compares your entry which must match exact. Since I subscribed many of you from MAKNWS-L by hand there may be *some* inconsistencies. If you get any error messages complaining about this simply: unsub makedon and then again: sub makedon Sacha Shopov [in my case] which should fix this problem. [email to the listserver at listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu address] MAKEDON is also avaliable in DIGEST mode which collects all the posts in the day and sends them to you as a batch file at the end of the day. Set it by: set makedon digest [email this again to listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu address] * Macedonian Discussion List * * MAKEDON is a mailing group which caters for discussions * regarding the Macedonian Republic in both the English and * Macedonian languages. MAKEDON List runs in parallel with * MAK-NEWS (MAKNWS-L@UBVM). To join the discussion group * simply send your message to MAKEDON@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu * after having subscribed. The group at this stage is * unmoderated, but this may change according to how it * is treated by its users. With the topic of Macedonia being * a delicate issue, if your intention is purely to irritate * then save yourself the trouble. * * Discussions are basically stimulated from Macedonian * sources such as those on MAKNWS-L@UBVM, and here are * further analysed. Readers of MAKEDON should really be * on the sister group MAKNWS-L. * * Every posting made to this group is also automatically * posted to Vardar BBS in Macedonia. They may also reach * the Macedonian BBS in Canada. * This is the description for our MAKEDON group. The group has been operating in test mode for the past couple of weeks, with an average of 6 postings per day, so should remind people (set makedon digest) may be a good option to set. Many however prefer to receive the posts as they arrive. Some personal comments. I am happy to keep the group open and unmoderated to both new subscribers and postings sent to the MAKEDON group. Objectives are to hopefully engage in some constructive discussions regarding Macedonia, focusing on the Republic. Some people are also unable to reach the UseNet groups easily - however this is not meant to be a replacement for the Macedonian usenet group ANM. Further, many readers who wish to participate need not be too tecnically oriented. Simply 'r'eply to the posting and it will be automatically sent to the group, the same as if you sent it to MAKEDON@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu. Make sure you do NOT send server requests to this addres unless you enjoy hearing people complain to you. Please use listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu for sub/unsub/digest/etc functions. Acceptable languages of discussion are English and/or Macedonian. Finally, If I see the group getting out of hand and degenerating to that of the usenet groups I will not hesitate to tighten the group. Rgds, Sacha MAKNWS-L/MAKEDON Coordinator sachz@raid.ctpm.org [<-- email me here now pls] Sydney, Australia ================================ MAK-NEWS ==================================== From Pavlina Proevska The Macedonian Arts Council, a non-profit organization founded to promote Macedonian cultural heritage will publish the sixth issue of its quarterly newsletter 'Macedonia, Curiosum Mundi" in early August. This month's issue will be dedicated to the St. Elijah uprising of August 2, 1903. It will also feature a special report on the Council's First Annual Luncheon held in late May at the Plaza Hotel in New York as well as a preview of the Struga Poetry Festival to be held in late August in the Republic of Macedonia. If you would like to support Macedonian culture and the activities of the Arts Council, you may subscribe to the newletter by sending a check or money order, in U.S. dollars, for a yearly subscription of $25.00 payable to the Macedonian Arts Council. Our address is P O Box 905 New York, NY 10023. For inquiries, you may call us after 6:pm weekdays at (212) 799-0009. The Editor. (end) Xref: ennews alt.news.macedonia:5491 soc.culture.greek:33585 soc.culture.bulgaria:9946 Path: ennews!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!eve.adam.com.au!eve.adam.com.au!not-for-mail From: geophill@adam.com.au (George Phillipou) Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.bulgaria Subject: Re: More real history Date: 24 Jul 1994 23:43:26 +0930 Organization: ADAM Pty Ltd. Lines: 177 Message-ID: <30tsu6$ivi@eve.adam.com.au> References: <301qms$dhv@tequesta.gate.net> <1994Jul20.100708.3107@enea.se> <30k95e$plh@tequesta.gate.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: eve.adam.com.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] (mango@gate.net) Slavko Mangovski writes: /What follows is a piece of real history (against non-real, doctored, ^^^^^^^^^^^^ That is when it agrees with Slavko's ideas it is "real history" when it doesn't it is "false" history. Simple enough. /propaganda history) and I dedicate it to all Bulgarians, semi Bulgarians, /Greeks, semi Greeks and Mr. Chia with the hope that they might learn /something. It is written by the renowned British historian R.G.D. Laffin /who had spent some time in Macedonia as a member of the British Corps /attached to the Serbian Army in 1917. This is from his book The Serbs /(pp. 54-66) which was published the same year. / /**** /The first point to grasp about the Bulgars is that, unlike the Serbs and /the Russians, they were originally not Slavs at all. Serbs and Russians may have been designated as "Slavs" at a point in time, but does anyone know who they were originally? The correct term for the Bulgarians of this period is "proto-Bulgarians". /When the Serbs and the Greeks achieved their independence the Bulgars made /no sign of life. This is utter nonense. For example read Loggio GC "Bulgaria: Past and Present" (Manchester, Sherratt & Hughes, 1936, pp314-318) for a more informed resume. In fact Loggio concludes :- "It may be said that the revolutionary activities of the Bulgarians contributed a great deal more to further the independence of their neighbours than that of their own." /To Western Europe of the middle of the nineteenth century the Bulgarian race /was unknown. More ignorance. What about the following few texts? I am certain there are many more. >1810-Phillips R "Manners, customs, and curiosities, of the people of Turkey" >1831-Cousnery EM "Voyage dans la Macedonie, contenant des recherches sur l'histoire, la geographie et les antiquites de ce pays" Paris. >1841-Prof Griseback "Reise durch Rumelien und nach Brussa im Johre 1838" Gottingen, Vol II. >1842-Robert Cyprien M "Revue des Deux Mondes". >1847-Neale J "A History of the Holy Eastern Church". >1854-Edmuns S "Travels in European Turkey: Through Bosnia, Servia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Roumelia, Albania, and Epirus; with a visit to Greece and Ionian Isles, and a homeward tour through Hungary and the Sclavonian Provinces of Austria on the Lower Danube". [seen as a >1856-Ubicini MA "Letters on Turkey: An account of the religious, political, social, and commercial condition of the Ottoman Empire; the reformed institutions, army, navy, e&c, &c", London. /Starting from their legal basis in the tenth clause of the Sultans firman /of 1870, the Bulgars have conducted a continuos campaign by fair means or /foul to prove that the inhabitants of Macedonia are Bulgars. The people ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ /themselves did not know what they were. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Typical Serbian ideology and strongly embraced today by Slavko and his mates in many of their postings. Thus to defend and justify their own present identity Slavko et al decree that the Macedonian people of the nineteenth century were morons of such exceptionally low IQ who could not even rationalise their own being. And these people like Slavko, Zoran etc demand our respect?? But what do they respect? The answer is simple - only the reflections of themselves in the mirror. /Amongst those people came the agents of the Bulgarian Exarchate and a /revolutionary committee called Internal Organization. The fairest means ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ /which they adopted was that of building schools and churches .. /The foulest means was the simple terrorization by murder, arson and pillage, /of those who would not declare themselves Bulgars or rather Exarchists. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ .. /I cannot pretend to speak with any authority about he true affinities of ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ /the Macedonian population. They differ from village to village. The ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Then why make any conclusions. /people of Ekshisu fired on the Serbian troops in August last. The people /of other villages have welcomed them. Lescovatz village, near Florina, is /Turkish. Batachin is Vlach. If you study books on the population you will /nearly always find that the author has some strong bias. There is no /other explanation of the extraordinary different figures and arguments /produced. (Despite the various estimates given there seems to be a /general agreement among the Bulgarian, Serbian, and German writers to put /the Greeks at about 200,000 and the Slavs at something over a million). /The people whom one author classes as Serbs another counts as Bulgars, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Only if that author is Serbian!! /ther Serbs or Bulgars, if they could be assured of a stable /government. If historical arguments count for anything, Serbia has the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ /better claim, for the medieval Serbian empire has left many traces in ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ /Macedonia, in the way of architecture and writings, while the short lived ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ /Bulgarian empires covered the country only in the dark ages. The district ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ .. /studied the question. The Macedonian child must have gone through a /bewildering education in Serbian Macedonia. Starting perhaps with being /educated as a Greek in a Patriarchist school, he then discovered, after /the conversion of his father and schoolmaster, that he was a Bulgar. Then /came the Serbian army and annexed the country, whereupon our lad found /that he was a Serb. Since 1915, no doubt, his village has changed its /tune again and he is a Bulgar once more. / /With these sudden changes, with all the uncertainty of life and property /to which he was subjected by his Turkish masters and by the Bulgarian, /Serbian, and Greek comitadji bands before the recent wars, with the /futile, lazy and corrupt government of the Turkish days and its legacy of /stagnation, the Macedonian peasant has never had a chance. The villages ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ /behind our lines are now enjoying such a peace as they have not known for ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ /years, though, of course, commerce on an ambitious scale is impossible ^^^^^^^^ Is that why thousands on thousands of Macedonians fought in WWI in the 5th Macedonian Regiment under the command of Boris Dringoff as part of the Bulgarian National Army? .. /****** /The conclusions from the above are as follows: /1. The only Bulgarians in Macedonia were those bulgarized by their /propaganda. If you believe that conclusion based on this article, then you must also believe that the main Bulgarian agents forcing (torturing, killing) the Macedonian people to declare themselves BULGARIAN were the members of IMRO like Delcheff, Gruev, Sandanski etc. Then how is it that you and your Macedonist mates hold IMRO in such high regard and extoll the virtues of people like Delcheff and Gruev as national "Macedonian" revolutionary heroes, when Laffin claims they were no more than "Bulgarian" agents?? Slavko, please rationalise this obvious paradox to me. /2. There were few Greeks in Macedonia. /3. The population identified itself as Macedonian I see nothing in the article which suggests that the term "Macedonian" was not simply used as a geographic descriptor to circumvent an individual requiring to declare his self-identity to a foreign Serbian army during a War. Moreover based on Laffin's limited sample, which he himself acknowledges, one cannot presume the "population" identified as "ethnic" Macedonians as you wish us to believe. These are again nothing but your own personal conclusions (as always) unsubstantiated by the very reference you present. Why don't you post the opinions of some Macedonian Revolutionaries like Delcheff, rather than Serbophiles?? No wonder the latest issue of the ^^^^^^^^^^^ "Guardian" claims the Macedonian youth of RoM are becoming increasingly pro- Serbian. Is this not part of your whole nefarious reason for all this distorted rhetoric you continually espouse? / /Thank you /Slavko George