========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 02:12:25 CST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Luben Todorouski Subject: Re: Kire & Opozicijata In-Reply-To: <199410311312.HAA40658@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>; from "M Petkovski" at Oct 31, 94 1:00 pm Napolno se slozuvam so tebe Misko stose odnesuva do opozicijata, samo bi sakal da nadopolnam nesto. Inaku sum (porano ne bas klucen, a sega voopsto neaktiven clen) na opozicijata (prvo MAAK a posle VMRO-DPMNE). Se razbira deka so site stavovi i site nastapi na site od clenovite na ovie partii ne se slozuvav i seuste ne se slozuvam. Moeto clenstvo vo ovie partii pred se se bazirase na mojot makedonski patriotizam i na faktot deka uste odamna pred da pocnaat da duvat vetrovite na demokratijata vo MK bev politicki determiniran kon desno. Sto se odnesuva do DP, imav sansa samo da go pratam nastanuvanjeto na partijata, bidejki vo meguvreme ja napustiv MK. Niv sudejki po lugeto koi ja formiraja partijata, (Gosev, Marijanovic, Panovski i dr.) pobrgu bi gi definiral kako partija na centarot (po malku desno orientirana). Razlikite megu DP i VMRO-DPMNE se sustestveni, taka da za nekoe pretopuvanje na VMRO vo DP negledam sansi a nitu ni realna osnova. So ova ne ja isklucuvam moznosta za koalicija. No problemot vo MK e vo toa sto ne postoi politicka atmosfera, koja bi dozvolila alijansa duri megu politicki subjekti so mnogu pobliski gledista i interesi. I opozicijata ne se pokaza imuna na nasledstvoto na bivsiot sistem i "brain wash"-ot. Samata organizacija na politickite partii vo MK, e primitivna. Site se organizirani po ugled na starit SK, so centralni komiteti. Aktivnosta i imidzot na partiite naj cesto se vrzani za edna licnost (liderot na partijata, koj e for ever) ili mala grupa okulu nego. Clenstvoto obicno treba samo da slusa, a ako ne se slozuva togas moze da si formira svoja partija (od tuka tolku mnogu partii vo tolku mala zemja). Idejata za partiski konvencii, frakcii i usoglasuvanja na interesi im e na site strana, kolku sto im bese stran poimot demokratija pred 15 god. Partiite ne izgledaat na politi- cki organizacii kade lugeto so isti i slicni interesi i idei se sobrani za da na najdobar nacin istite gi ostvarat, po pat na izlaganje na razliciti stavovi i gledista. Imamame samo odnos na ovcar i stado. Vo takva situacija pozicijata e nadmokna. Toj sistem od davna go imaat izgradeno i razraboteno i kako takov prirodno im lezi (uste od vremeto na Lenin). Zatoa posle edno nogiot starec si imame drug mudar starec (Big Nose and he realy sucks). Ne poradi negoviot golem nos, tuku celiot sistem na mudri starci i ovcari smrdi. Samo toj sistem ne bi postoel ako ne postojat ovci. A bez ovci nema ni sisanje. Po nekogas se prasuvam, dali opozicijata e dovolno vnatresno silna da go srusi ovoj sistem ili samo se obiduva da bide noviot ovcar. Da stane nov ovcar nema realni sansi, bodejki go ispusti vremeto (za razlika na situacijata vo Hrvatska na primer). Edina sansa i e vo vnatresno prestruktuiranje i toa dlaboko. Samo taka ke bide mokna da go srusi sistemot na post-kumunisticki primitivizam, koj voopsto ne e podobar od kumunizmot kako forma na drzaven kriminal svojstven za site totalitarni rezimi. Sto se odnesuva do VMRO, tuka ne bese samo romatizam vo prasanje tuku i hrabrost. Zatoa sega imame drzava (kakva takva). Pobedata e ocigledna. Pro jugoslovenskiot blok na partii stana Sojuz za Makedonija. A Jugoslavija ni e samo siromasen sosed. Za albanskiot problem, toj e opsto makedonski problem, nasleden od bivsa Jugoslavija. Ne gledam sustestvena razlika megu partiite od levo idesno. Levite samo go polzuvaat svojot prirodno vroden hipokritizam (bratstvo edinstvo=sozitelstvo). Hipokritizmot ne dava rezultati, samo gi odolzuva problemite, pravejki gi uste poteski. Resenieto go gledam vo noviot sistem, so koj i ovcarite na Albancite ke bidat otfrleni od igra (dosega kaj niv nekoi raboti dosta ubavo rabotat). Toa ke go likvidira postoenjeto na albanski partii vo Makedonija (albanski partii moze da ima samo vo Albanija). A problemot ke bide problem na malcinstva i toa ne isklucivo na nacionalni malcinstva (albancite se samo edno od nacionalnite malcinstva vo MK). Za koj problem iskreno pozeluvam da se resi najliberalno mozno, sto e del na tradiciite na makedonskoto osloboditelno dvizenje. Za DP vazat istite problemi. I pokraj faktot deka idejno poprilicno sum odalecen od niv, gi respectiram nekoi od nivnite vidni clenovi kako borci za demokratizacija (Marijanivic) i drzavno osamostojuvanje (Gosev, Panovski) na Makedonija. Samo se plasam da ne zaglavat vo vodite na malo-graganizmot, kako sto znaese Ligata za Demokratija da zaglavi porano. Tie mozebi ke bidat glavnata sila za gradenje na noviot sistem. Sepak resenieto go gledam vo edukacija vo nov oblik (privatni skoli, slobodni mediumi). A tuka po se izgleda makedonskata emigracija ke treba da dade pridones. A vo nea spagame i jas i ti Misko, kako i pogolem del na preplatnicite na MAKEDON. Blagodaram za vnimanieto Bube problem. Ne gledam sustestvena razlika megu partiite, levite samo svojot ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 19:02:13 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Elections > > A sega kje te povikam LICHO i po IME I PREZIME da gi > > navedesh onie koi napravile pari so shverc na nafta > > i se finansieri na DP. > > Ako ne go napravish toa, kje te smetam za neseriozen. > > Ako bas te interesira, ke ti pratam mail licno. Namerno ne sakav da > spomenuvam iminja... Edniot indirektno i go kazav minatiot pat, ti A zoshto da ne gi spomenuvash iminjata? Barem DP nema partiska policija. > teknuva (minister vo prethodnata vlada, a?). Ako mislish na bivshiot min. za stopanstvo - kolku shto jas znam, toj ne e aktiven i toa bajagi vreme. > > Povtorno te povikuvam da gi navedesh po ime i prezime > > onie koi spored tebe razocharuvaat shto se prikluchile > > kon dotichnata partija i da navedesh zoshto istite > > treba da razocharuvaat. > > E zini da ti kazam... Izvini, ama povazno mi e prijatelstvoto so niv, > odkolku toa dali ti mene ke me smetas za seriozen ili neseriozen. A > pricinite gi navedov... (aj malce nie sega, dosta oni...) Strashno jako prijatelstvo e toa koga tie tolku te razocharale so nivnite izjavi. > > Zaprashaj se od kade mu se parite na G-dinot Frchkovski > > za noviot mercedes ili garderobata (sekogash se pojavuva > > vo garderoba so min. vrednost od 1500 DEM), koga na > > pochetokot od svojata ministerska rabota imashe samo > > velosiped i stari pantaloni? > > Ete... Tipicen primer za atak na licnost... Ima edna praksa koja tuka > se vika negativna kampanja (koga go napagjas konkurentot). Taa se > deli na napad na licnosta, i napad na sodrzinata. Veruvaj mi, vtorive > davaat podobri rezultati (provereno so istrazuvanja). 1. Mislam deka prvata kampanja masovno ja primenuvash vo tvoite diskusii. 2. Sekoja politichka lichnost vo edna drzhava, stanuva i javna, a so toa i javnosta ima pravo da bara informacii za negoviot zhivot. Kako del od taa javnost go postavuvam gorenavedenoto prashanje - kako toa nikoj da ne se najde pameten pa duri i da odgovori edno postaveno prashanje? > > Opozicijata, opozicijata, opozicijata, opozicijata.... > > Dali vo tvoite kritiki ima mesto i za pozicijata? > > Kontrapitanje.... Ima li vo TVOITE kritiki mesto i za opozicijata... Ima. Ne mi odgovori na moeto prashanje. KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 19:02:39 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Elections Vladimir Ogjanovski reche: > > Primer e. No pogledni so kogo kradele - ispagja > > deka LP se sekogash tamu kade shto treba da se > > krade, a bogami i 90% od parkiralishtata gi zedoa > > lugje od LP (publikuvano duri i od rezhimskite vesnici > > kako NM i Vecher). > > E, dobro... kradat, ama ne sami. Dali toa znaci deka koga opozicijata > ke bide sama na vlast nema da krade? Sega e primorana, posto neli LP > kradat, pa im turile noz pod grlo... Ili ke kradete i vie, ili... 1. Toa se nekoi gradski pratenici na VMRO-DPMNE koi kradele, a ne na (celokupnata) opozicijata. 2. Nekoi lekcii (ne site) VMRO-DPMNE gi nauchi, pa ovoj pat VMRO-DPMNE ima daleku podrugachija obrazovna struktura na svoite kandidati (mnogu povisoka), za razlika od prvite izbori. > > PROMENA? Zarem ne mislish deka tokmu ti dokazhuvash > > kolku kaj nas se' e crno i deka lugjeto poprvo bi ja > > prodale dushata na gjavolot za da otidat na zapad, otkolku > > da zhiveaat vo .mk, da rabotat po kafichi i da "zarabotuvaat > > 1000 DEM"? > > Lele... me videl Kire koga trguvav so gjavolot... Ti rekol nekoj deka si bukvalista? > Ssega na strana Kire, mnogu ti fala sto me prasa za ova... Za razlika > od tebe, sto edvaj cekas da izbegas i da ne se vratis (ne samo ti) > jas dojdov ovde za nesto sto se vika "strucno usovrsuvanje". Dojdov > da naucam nesto. Ako site razmisluvaat kako tebe, turi i pepel na > nasata tolku sakana (barem na jazik) makedonija, za koja ako treba i > zivotot ke go dademe... Ako bas te interesira, tamu mnogu podobro > ziveev nego tuka i (neznam dali ke mi veruvas, a i ne moras), mnogu > polesno se pravat pari vo Mk, nego tuka.... Samo treba da poglednes > okolu sebe i da otvoris oci. Uspehot ne vika "eve sum". Treba da se > potrudis malku. Da bilo taka lesno, site ke vozea BMW (son na site > makedoncinja). Od pogornoto mozhe da se zakluchi deka: 1. Tebe so sila te nateraa da odish na struchno usovrshuvanje, bidejkji ti vo nikoj sluchaj ne si sakal da ja napushtish "majka Makedonija" 2. Tolku ti bilo poubavo vo .mk da edvaj chekash da se vratish nazad (postojano se javuvash na airport da kupish avionska karta, ama stalno te ubeduvaat deka site se prodadeni) 3. Vo USA nema business - najdobriot business e vo .mk 4. Amerite pojma nemaat shto e toa zhivot, politika, business... seto toa go znaat mnogu podobro makedoncite ...a ustvari, IMHO, tvojata poenta lezhi vo tvoeto sfakjanje deka uspehot lezhi vo prikluchuvanje kon kriminalcite ("ako ne mozhesh da gi pobedish, pridruzhi im se"). KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 18:51:27 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Pechat Sasha Konechni reche: > Od ova mnogu dobro se gleda deka vo Makedonija ne mozhe da ima nezavisen > pechat. Nezavisen pechat mora da zhivee od prodavanje na primeroci. > So takov mal broj na prodadeni primeroci eden vesnik ne mozhe da opstane. > Zakluchok e deka vo Makedonija mozhe da postoi samo subsidiran pechat. > Koj mozhe da go subsidira pechatot? Ili drzhavata ili nekoj od nadvor. > Ako e drzavata togas se partiliite koi shto se na vlast. Ako e > od nadvor togash e USA ili Evropska Zaednica. 1. Za da pechatot ima visok tirazh - treba da se ima kvaliteten pechat 2. Koga drzhavata finansira vo pechatot, ne znachi deka finansiraat partiite koi se na vlast. Zarem ochekuvash deka koga kje se smeni vlasta, site novinari ednostavno kje si naprvat brainwash i od sledniot moment kje stanat provladini (nakloneti kon novata vlada)? > Isto e i sto pechatenje na knigi. Nikogash vo makedonija nema da ima > izbor na na pechateni knigi. Za da se isplati pechatenej na edna kniga > mora taa kniga da se prodade vo dovolno primeroci. No ovoj problem go > imaat i mnogu pogolemi i posilni zenji kako na primer Belgija i Holandija. > Na primer vo Belgija i Holandija ima okolu 20 miljioni luge koi > zboruvaat Holandski. > Vo Belgija i Holandija tehnichkata literatura 99% e na Angliski. A dali si videl stranska literatura vo Makedonija? Jas da - na sporadichni mesta i toa mnooogu shturo, obicho po samo eden primerok od sekoja kniga i toa site nabaveni ilegalno (chitaj shvercuvani) i plus so visoki (monopolistichki) ceni. Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 18:49:16 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Glasanja Denes, pokraj drzhavnite izbori, se sproveduvashe i "glasanjeto" za novi izbori, organizirano od strana na opozicijata. Zborot glasanje go staviv pod navodnici, bidejkji ne se raboti za pravno glasanje so nekakvi pravni posledici i pravno legalni rezultati. Glasanjeto e zamisleno samo kako edno protestno simbolichko glasanje. Inaku, brojkite se ushte ne se poznati, no, sepak, objaveno e deka vo 50% od izbornite kutii postaveni vo opshtina Bitola (onie postaveni za naselenieto od gradot Bitola, bez selata) imalo okolu 13,000 livchinja. Tochnite rezultati se ochekuvaat utre napladne, koga kje se odrzhi press konferencija. Vo Skopje, glasanjeto beshe voglavnom organizirano na ploshtadot "Makedonija". Nekolku kutii bea postaveni i vo nekoi od perifernite naselbi na gradot Skopje, kako i po okolnite sela. Vo tekot na denshniot den, go posetiv plosthadot "Makedonija" dva pati, i toa okolu 12 chasot i okolu 17 chasot. I vo dvata termina, spored moja slobodna procenka, na plosthadot imashe okolu 2,000 lugje, koi se razbira ne stoeja (toa ne beshe miting), tuku se raboteshe za lugje koi chekaat na redici da glasaat ili se na minuvanje. Nimalku iznenaduvachki, golem del (ogromen) bea mladi i toa na 18-35 godishna vozrast. Ne mozhe a da ne se nametne prashanjeto deka, neli e najgolem dokaz deka vo ovaa drzhava neshto ne shtima, koga ogromen procent od mladinata (do 35 godini) ne se slozhuva so ona shto momentalno se sluchuva? Anyway, da prodolzham so ovoj neformalen "report". Paralelno so glasanjeto beshe ovozmozheno i zapishuvanje na razlichni komentari od strana na glasanjeto, komentari koi samo vo Skopje gi ima povekje od 40,000 (spored prvite viduvanja) i koi najverojatno kje bidat publikuvani vo najskoro vreme. Posle 18 chasot, bea zapaleni i pogolem broj svekji (toa se praveshe i vo tekot na celiot den, no, nemashe golem efekt zaradi dnevnata svetlina) koi sozdadoa interesna atmosfera. Ova mozham da go procenam samo od slikite koi gi vidov na TV i od ona shto mi go prenesoa drugi, bidejkji, kako shto vekje rekov, vo toa vreme ne bev na ploshtadot. Inaku, od drzhavnite izbori seushte nema nekakvi oficijalni rezultati. Spored nekoi neoficijalni rezultati, odzivot na glasachite se dvizhi od 20 do 50%. Kolkav e "vistinskiot" (spored drzhavnata izborna komisija), najverojatno kje doznaeme denovive, dodeka kolkav e vistinskiot odziv - najverojatno nikogash nema da doznaeme. Ako nekoj ima nekakvi prashanja neka poveli. Dokolku sum vo mozhnost, rado kje odgovoram. :) -------------------------------------------- Update (ponedelnichki) 1. Na deneshnata press konferencija, g. Petar Goshev, megju drugoto izjavi deka vo kutiite se izbrojani nad 450,000 glasachki livchinja za novi izbori. 2. Vchera, do 18:30 chasot, spored drzhavnata izborna komisija, odzivot na "drzhavnite" izbori iznesuvashe okolu 33-35%. Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 18:52:20 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Elections Vladimir Ogjanovski reche: > > Premnogu lesno pomina preku temata za 'daleku > > od perfektno organizirani izbori'. Ako e taka, > > zoshto se priznavaat izborite? Zatoa shto i odgovora > > na garniturata koja go napravi haosot? Vo sekoja > > posthena zemja, za vakvi raboti - SAMATA vladata > > dava ostavka. Sakate primer - pred nekolku dena, > > vo Koreja se srushi most. Premierot VEDNASH ponudi > > ostavka (za tamu nekoj si most!). Koga toa kje se sluchi > > vo nashata zemja? > > Da pocekavme prvo da zavrsea izborite pa da gi komantirame... A? Ne i obrnuvash dostojno vnimanie na mojata komparacija. Veruvam deka istiot premier (koreanski) bi dal vednash ostavka so samiot chin na krshenje na Ustavot so nezatvaranje na izbirachkite spisoci, 8 dena pred izborite. > Bas bi sakal povekje informacii za taa ispoved na liceto... Koj e, od > kade e, na kakvo rabotno mesto bil, za kogo naviva vo izborive... Znaesh i samiot deka takvi informacii ne mozham da gi dadam (i onaka reche deka kontaktirash so Kiro G., pa verojatno prvo shto kje mu go kazhesh e imeto na novoinkriminiraniot), no, mozham samo da ti kazham deka se raboti za visok funkcioner od sluzhbite za javna bezbednost na MVR. Mozhebi naskoro kje mozhe i da se prochita neshto na ovaa tema, po mediumite. > Bas mi e zal za toa sto ne si dobil pokana. Ama i od mojata familija > nemle dobieno pokani. I stari i mladi. Ocekuvash aplauz na ova? Ili ednostavno go prenesuvash kako corpus delicti A za tvrdenjeto deka izborite se "apsolutno fer, demokraski i chesni". > > NIKOJ ne prevzede odgovornost okolu ovaa farsa, a ne mozhe > > da se sluchila od racete na nekoj drug. > E, za toa si u pravo. nekoj treba da leta od rabota... Kako na primer organizitarot - vladata? > > Onie chesnite si go kazhaa svoeto - Rafe Cherepnalkoski > > (chlen na Drzhavnata Izborna Komisija) dade ostavka vo > > koja se naveduvaat prichinite. > > Rafe da ne e clen na nekoja od opozicionite partii, ili barem > simpatizer? Ne e. > > Ako ima interesiranje, mozham da ja prenesam vo celost > > ostavkata na g-dinot Cherepnalkoski. > > Ima kire, ima... Ama te molam, daj ni malku "background" za covekot. Ushte malku trpenie - utre (se nadevam) kje ja pratam na MAKEDON. > > Najprvin, izborite se APLA lazhirani. > > Nikoj ne e vinoven dodeka ne se dokaze sprotivnoto (pressumed > innocent)... Za zhal, ne postoi pravna drzhava vo RM, pa za da mozhesh da dokazhuvash neshto. Nehsto slichno kako vo filmot Brief Pelican (ili beshe obratno - Pelican Brief?), ako si go gledal, se razbira. > Ocigledno situacijata so informiranjeto i ne e taka mracna, cim > citate i stranski vesnici. Bas me cudi kako "komunjarite" ne gi Aha, ne e strashna, osobeno zaradi faktot deka eden Financial Times e 160 MKD, t.e. 6.2 DEM. Kolku e vo London? > zabranile? A bas bi sakal da gi procitam tie statii. Mozes li da mi > navedes podatoci koga se objaveni, vo koi vesnici, datumi i sl. Edno > sto sakam jas da gi procitam, a drugo da vidam, brate dali toa ti si > gi procital ili ti gi raskazale. Dotichnite vesnici gi imav pred mene - taka da, mozhesh samo da me optuzhish deka lazham, a preostanuva auditoriumot da zakluchi koj lazhe, a koj ne, vo sluchajot. Ako uspeam povtorno da gi dobijam istite vesnici, kje go imash toa zadovolstvo da gi dobiesh i baranite podatoci. > > Se slozhuvam deka treba da se objavi vesta koja se > > ima vo toj moment, no, NE beshe objavena takva vest, > > tuku beshe objavena izmislena vest. > > Toa e spored tvoeto ubeduvanje... Inaku, izmislena vest ne postoi. > Vesta moze samo da bide vistinita ili nevistinita. Izmislena vest == nevistina. > > Od dve prichini: > > 1. Ne sum diplomat > > Toa sto ne si diplomat i ne e nekoj dokaz deka gi poznavas rabotitei > deka objektivno gi gledas (ova vtorovo osobeno se gleda...) No e dokaz za moeto lichno ubeduvanje, t.e. deka zad stavot shto go iskazhuvam stojam jas i lichno jas, a ne nekoja si sluzhba, drzhava itn. koja mi gi pishuva govorite, mi gi predodreduva slednite chekori i plus me plakja za seto toa. > > 2. Na stranskite zemji im odgovora nesposobna vlast, na > > koja kje mozhe da i se diktira nadvoreshnata i vnatreshnata > > politika => diplomatite davaat podrshki. > > Toa e povtorno tvoe licno, laicko gledanje na rabotite. Odamna ne sum > slusnal vakvo nezrelo razmisluvanje. Blagodaram za komplimentot. Od porakite koi gi isprati poslednite nekolku dena se zdobiv so vpechatok deka osobeno te biva za delenje komplimenti. IMHO, povekjeto diskutanti na MAKEDON vekje go delat istoto mislenje, pa mozhebi e vreme malku da go namalish istoto delenje, bidejkji site se uverija vo tvoite gorenavedeni kvaliteti? > > A deka vlasta e nesposobna, dokaz e i toa deka postojano, bez > > prestanok, se naglasuva shto stranskite diplomati ili vesnici > > rekle za ova ili za ona. Koga kje se napravi neshto, se cheka > > reakcija od stranskite mediumi, pa da se reche deka "ova beshe > > dobar poteg". > > Znaci spored tebe vlasta e sposobna ako od site strani, site vikaat > deka ne cini. Vlasta pravi poteg X => negativni kritiki od site > stranski mediumi => sposobna vlast. Bravo... Bas logicen zaklucok. Vlasta e sposobna togash koga samite posledici kje kazhuvaat kolku nejzinite potezi se pravilni ili ne i koga kje ima obraz i fakti da im ja objasni pravilnosta na nivnite potezi na poshirokata javnost, a ne da go pravi toa so nekakvi si napisi. KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 19:01:20 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Elections Zaradi moja greshka, del od porakata ne beshe prosleden, pa ovaa poraka ja isprakjam po vtor pat, so delot koj nedostasuvashe: Vladimir Ogjanovski reche: > > Da ne odime vo ekstremi... A, baska (iako ne go obozavam dzingo) > prasaj gi lugjeto od kratovo sto mislat za nego. Gi prashuvam (imam rodnini tamu). Vo DZingovo veruvam deka on the record, nikoj nema ni da se obide da kazhe nekoj losh zbor za nego. Probaj da gi prashash off the record i kje se iznenadish. > > Ne. Demokratija e koga prevzemash tuzhba, i ako ti > > e osnovana, se presuduva vo tvoja korist. Demokratija > > NE e koga ne podnesuvash (opravdana) tuzhba, samo > > zatoa shto znaesh deka rezhimskiot sud nema da presudi > > vo tvoja korist. > > Prvo podnesi,pa pocekaj da vidis dali ke ja odbijat, pa sudi dali > sudot e rezimski ili ne. Lesno e da se opravduvas kako ne si podnel > tuzba, zatoa sto odnapred znaes deka ke ja odbijat. Vidovitost?!! Znaat zaradi prethodno podneseni tuzhbi koi bi bile ochigledni i vo nekoi banani-drzhavi. Samo pogledni gi prigovorite. Site 116 na DP i >90 na VMRO-DPMNE se odbieni. Ne sluchajno gi spomenuvam prigovorite samo na ovie dve partii - vo izbornata edinica 103, g-dinot Tortevski (DP), megju drugoto, naveduva deka izborite vo negovata i.e. treba da se ponishtat bidejkji nastanalo ochigledno krshenje na zakonot za izborni edinici, pri shto gragjani koi treba da glasaat vo i.e. 103, bile upatuvani vo i.e. 108 i obratno. Prigovorot na g-dinot Tortevski e odbien, dodeka POTPOLNO istiot prigovor na kandidat za pratenik od strana na Republikanskata partija, od i.e. 108 e PRIFATEN i e ponishteno glasanjeto vo 7-8 izborni mesta vo istata izbornata edinica. Objasnuvanje? > > Deka javnite glasila vo Makedonija se rezhimski, neobjektivni, > > provladini i prodolzhena raka na partiite na vlast - *fakt*. > > Zasnovan na sto? Na nivnata celokupna rabota. 50 godini so "Nova Makedonija" ...SIGURNO! > > Deka mediumite, direktno ili indirektno upravuvani od strana > > na VMRO-DPMNE (Glas, Delo, KRT) se isto shto i rezhimskite > > vesnici, samo od obratnata strana - *fakt*. > > Izvini, ama Delo za sebe tvrdi deka e nezavisen vesnik. Ostaj ti Delo shto tvrdi. I rezhimskite vesnici tvrdat deka ne se rezhimski. > > Koga ja spomena Demokratija (inaku glasnik na SDSM), veruvam > > deka misleshe na Demokratski Forum (glasnik na DP). > > Ocigledno rabotite si pocnal da gi pratis pred kratko vreme. Vednas > po osamostojuvanjeto na makedonija, izleguvase eden vesnik sto se > vikase demokratija. Prvo se zaleta da bide dneven vesnik, po 1 mesec > se transformirase vo nedelnik, pa sega ne znam, verojatno stanal > desetogodisnik. Sluchajno da ne mislish na "Republika"? Vesnik "Demokratija" nikogash nema postoeno (a da prestaneshe i so tvoite kvalifikuvanja?). > Ne postoi zavisno ili nezavisno novinarstvo (glasilo). Ima objektivno > i neobjektivno. Imaat potpolno isto znachenje vo kontekstot, pa ne gledam potreba od igranje so zborovi. > > "Da ne se lazheme", Makedonecot ne e ljubitel na > > pishaniot zbor bidejkji vo Makedonija praktichno i > > ne postoi pishan zbor. Koga posleden pat vo Makedonija > > si videl KVALITETNA kniga, napishana od stranski avtor, > > a prevedena na makedonski i pechatena od makedonska > > izdavachka kukja? > > Koga posleden pat si videl prevod na makedonski jazik na > > nekoja struchna kniga? > > Koga posleden pat si videl makedonski kvaliteten i objektiven > > dneven vesnik? > > I posle ochekuvash Makedonecot da e ljubitel na pishaniot > > zbor? > > Imase kire, imase... Ama lezea na zaliha. Ushte eden od odlichnite potezi na garniturata? > > Ne znam od kade ti se brojkite, no, momentalno, tirazhot > > na Nova Makedonija e okolu 7.000, dodeka na Vecher - 6.000. > > A od kade ti se tebe. Da ne te izvestuva licno odgovorniot za tiraz > vo NM? Ako tolku te interesira od kade mi se mene, mozam da ti pratam > mail licno. Ne me interesira ni najmalku. Ako gi kazhesh tuka, kje gi prochitame, otherwise, ne mi trebaat. A od kade jas znam - 2 meseci (pred 1 godina i 9 meseci) bev vo srceto na mehanizmot na "Nova Makedonija", a povekje od 8 meseci (do pred 1 godina do pred 4 meseci) bev i honorarec-novinar na dodatokot za kompjuteri, objavuvan vo Vecher. A bidejkji jas ne si igram "Krienka" i ne nudam nekakvi si tajni mail-ovi (ushte PGP javna shifra da mi pobarash i se' kje stane prilichno interesno :), kje ti kazham deka brojkite se dobieni lichno od g-dinot direktor na pechatnica. KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 19:03:25 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Transliteracija Ne prochitav nikakvi komentari na tekstot za transliteracija? 1. Po koj raspored kje pishuvame na ovaa lista? 2. Zainteresirani li ste za file-ovite koi gi spomenav? 3. Kje voveduvame li paralelno kirilichno/latinichno pishuvanje? Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 19:02:57 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Civilizacija Do site diskutanti na MAKEDON mail listata. Poslednite nekolku dena, golem del od diskuiite preogjaat vo pogreshen pravec. Tonot se povekje stanuva cinichen, porakite navredlivi, a celite na diskusiite se povekje stanuvaat izvitopereni. Zarem ne mislite deka nemame nikakva potreba od gubenje energija na takvi bezpotrebni raboti? Pozdravi, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 00:10:59 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Humor #1 Baravte humor. :) Deset storii za da vi go razubavat denot. Samo nemojte ni sluchajno da gi pokazhuvate na vashiot sysadm. Mozhe da dobie nasty ideas. :> BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL #1 I'm still bored. But at least now the radio's off, it was on it's 12 repeat of "Wildfire" THIS WEEK, and it's only Tuesday; shit I hate that. So anyway, I quicklime the engineer to remove any fingerprints and then FedEx him back to headquarters and set about waiting for the engineer. Now the second engineer only has to come out after another 4 hours, there's no death of engineer penalty clause, (but I'm thinking about asking for one) so I've got to fill in some time. This guy's going to be a technical engineer, the sort that comes in with a raggedy tie where he got it caught in the drum printer at 3000 rpm a couple of years ago, and he'll have the grazes on the face that indicate that he didn't get the gate open in time... I know these sorts... So I fill in a couple of hours by killing users off and deleting their files, then waiting for them to call... "Um, I can't find my files" the wimpering simp on the phone says "Files? What files?" "The files in my account. My thesis, my research - all gone!" "Gone ay? What's your username?" "TURGEN" "TROJAN?! LIKE THE CONDOM?" "No TURGEN. T-U-R" "OH Turgen, like TURD, but with a GEN instead of a D... Ok lets see" I make vague clicking noises my dragging the quicklimed man's fingers back and forth across the keypad. "Uh-huh" >drag drag< "Yeah.." >dragedy poke< "AH! - You haven't got any files" "I KNOW!" "Well, what are you calling ME for? We don't make the files you know, we just look after them. And chopitty-chop too, your thesis looks like it's due in a couple of days.." I hang up - he'll call back. Meantime I open up a copy of "VMS BASTARD OPERATORS MANUAL FROM HELL" I'm reading the article I sent in about getting rid of those trouble users... "... Modify the user's password minimum from 6 to 32 letters, give the password a 1 day lifetime, set it so that they HAVE to use the password generate utility when they change their password (so their password will always be something that looks like vaguely pronouncable line-noise), add a secondary password with the same as the above, then redefine their CLI tables so that the only command that works is DELETE, and all other commands point to it." Beautiful. Shit I'm good. He calls back. "MY FILES ARE GONE!" he screams, panicking. "Did you have a backup?" I ask, as sweet as pie. "But that's what you people are supposed to do!" he sobs. "Yeah, well we did - but then we switched to those 8mm tapes, and they're the same size as the ones in my video camera, so I've been using them to tape the neighbour's sex romps..." I hear the revolver go off, but what the hell, it's 5pm, and not my problem... KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 00:11:31 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Humor #2 BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL #2 I'm sitting at the desk, playing x-tank, when some thoughtless bastard rings me on the phone. I pick it up. "Hello?" I say. "Who is this?" they say "It's me I think" I say, having been through a telephone skills course. "Me Who?" "Is this like a knock knock joke?" I say, trying anything to save myself having to end this game. Too LATE! I get killed. Now I'm pissed! "What can I do for you?" I ask pleasantly - (one of the key warning signs) "Um, I want to know if we have a particular software package.." "Which package is that?" "Uh, B-A-S-I-C it's called." >clickety clickety d-e-l b-a-s-i-c.e-x-e< "Um no, we don't have that. We used to though.." "Oh. Oh well, the other thing I wanted to know was, could the contents of my account be copied to tape to I have a permanent copy of them to save at home in case the worst happens.." "The worst?" "Well, like they get deleted or something..." "DELETED! Oh, don't worry about that, we have backups" (I'm such a *shit*) "What was your username?" He gives me his username. (What an idiot) >clickety clikc< "But you haven't got any files in your account!" I say, mock surprise leaping from my vocal chords. "Yes I have, you must be looking in the wrong place!" So first he spoils my x-tank game, and now he's calling me a liar... >clickety click< "Oh no, I made a mistake" I say Did he mutter "typical" under his breath? Oh dear, oh dear.. "I MEANT TO SAY: That username doesn't exist" "Huh? >wimper< It must do, I was only using it this morning!" "Ah well, that'll be the problem, there was a virus in our system this morning, the... uh... De Vinci Virus, wipes out users who are logged in when it goes off." "That can't be right, my girlfriend was logged in, and I'm in her account now!" "Which one was that?" He tells me the username. Some people NEVER learn.. "Oh, yeah, her account was just after we discovered the virus." >clickety clikc< "..she only lost all her files" "But..." "But don't worry, we've got them all on tape" "Oh, thank goodness!!!" "Paper tape. Have you got a magnifying glass and a pencil. SEE YOU IN THE MACHINE ROOM!!!! NYAHAHAHAHAHA!" I'm such a prick! KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 00:13:08 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Humor #4 BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL #4 It's a thursday, and I'm in a good mood. It's payday. I think I'll take some calls. I put the phone back on the hook. It rings. "I've been trying to get you for hours!" the voice at the other end screams. "Not, it can't be hours" I say, putting Blade Runner back into it's cover and looking at the back, "it was more like 114 minutes. I was on a long phone call with the big boss, trying to get you users some better facilities" Hook; Line; and Sinker... "Oh. I'm sorry." "That's ok, I'm a tolerant person" I make a mental note to change his password to something nasty in the next couple of days. "Um, I need to know how to rename a file" he says. Oh dear... Hang on, it's payday isn't it?! I'm in a good mood. "Sure. You just go 'rm' and the filename" "Thanks" "No worries" (Now I'm in a REALLY good mood. I think I just might write that script to make saving impossible on rogue at random times like I've been thinking about) The phone rings again. "Hello?" "Hi there" I say "Is this the Operators?" "Yes it is" I say, nice as pie. "Could you get my printouts out please. I need them urgently, and I printed them over 5 minutes ago". "Your username?" I ask He gives it to me, and I write it down for later. "No worries at all!" I say, and head to the printers. There's a HUUUUUUUGE pile of printouts there, and sure enough, his is at the top of the pile. I pick it up, split it out of the rest and pour our ink-stained cleaning alcohol all over it, run it over a couple of times with the loaded tape trolley then slam it in the tape safe door some times as well. Beautiful. "Here's your printout" I say "Sorry about the delay, we've got a few printer problems." He takes a look and shits himself. "Well, can I print it again?" he asks, worried. "Sure you can" I say "But no promises, the printer's a bit stuffed today". "Well can I print it on laser - is that working?" "Yeah of course, but that'll cost you" I say, oozing compassion for the geek. "It doesn't matter about the cost, THIS IS URGENT!" I slide-on back into the printer room and put in the toner cartridge we save for special occasions - the one that prints thick black lines down the middle of the page and is all faint on one side. It took me quite a while to make it like that too. The printout shoots through and I bring it out immediately. I don't want to miss this! "W-w-what's happened to my printout?" he geek-squeals at me. Lucky I wrote that username down - I'm really starting to develop a taste for torture. "Well nothing. I mean sure, it's a little soiled, but that cartridge has already done 47 thousand pages and been refilled 17 times. It's quite good compared to some we get" Geek pays up and starts blubbing. "Hey now. There's no reason to cry! Have you got a disk with your work on it?" He gives me a box of diskettes and I step inside and run them across the bulk eraser. I come back out again. "Sorry, I just remembered, our machine is on the fritz, you'll have to take these to the other side of campus to the machine there, it'll print them ok, and it had a brand-new toner yesterday." "GREAT!" "No worries. Oh, and hold the disks above your head the whole way there, the earth's magnetic field is particularly strong today." "Huh?" "No arguements, just do it." He wanders off, hand held high. Shit I hate myself sometimes. KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 00:14:01 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Humor #5 BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL #5 I'm bored senseless, so I pass the time by reading users email. I must admit that today's lot is PARTICULARLY boring, not one good message in all of them. I was expecting at LEAST some veiled reference to a grope in a storeroom, but nothing. So I'm bored senseless by the usual drivel about some relative's surgery and how the weather is over the other side of the world - that sort of crap. To relieve the boredom, I remove a e-mail party invite from a user's mail and post it under the senders username to alt.singles.with.severe.social. dysfunctions on news, and make a note in my diary to be there with my camcorder. Should be a blast! Next in line is the online medical records database, in which the company doctors store the current medical histories of the staff. I grep it quickly for "herpes" and "syphillus" and sell the results to the local scum newspaper. I cover my tracks by adding an entry to one of the doctor's online electronic diarys for yesterday saying "$500, Med Recs To Paper" I think that's all it should take.. I move some tapes from the racks to the trolley to make it look like we really use them, then start looking thru archie listings for a hidden x-gif site. I find one then start a batch job running under some user's account to get them all back, charged to him. I make sure he's got enough disk for the job by removing any files not related to the task at hand. Like all those "Doctorate Final Report" papers that have got quite large in the last couple of weeks. I go back to the mail now, as something's bound to have happened. I do a grep on all mail files for the words "pregnant" and "family way", and post them anonymously to the local general interest newsgroup. Then, before anything can happen, the power goes out! The next second, the phone rings. "Hello?" I say, annoyed - the coyote was just about to kill roadrunner again! "Has the comput.." I hang up. This is a matter of life or death. Quick as I can I rip the computer power cable out of the UPS and plug the TV in. Damn! Wylie missed again! Meantime, all the alarms are going off like crazy as the disks spin down, but that's ok, because my Mac and Terminal are hardwired to the UPS in any case; and I'm at the Beer Factory level in Dark Castle too. The phone rings, so I pull the PABX breaker on the UPS switchboard and it stops. Now to look like I'm working. I break out the puck and the hockey stick and play a little one-on-wall. From the observation window it'll look like I'm being blindingly efficient, as per usual. 10 Minutes later, the power is back and we're two HDA's down, but what the hell, I haven't lost a man, I'm onto the final screen, and there's more cartoons! The phone rings, it's a luser. (What a surprise) "Computer Room" I say, being efficient "Hello, when will the compu..." I hang up. I'm doing well in the screen, all I need do is get past the wizard who throws spells at you and I'm in! The phone rings again. I put it on hands free. "Computer Room" I shout, still deep in the game. "I've lost my files" a user whines over the loudspeaker "You bet you have" I say, as my concentration lapses just long enough for me to get zapped by the wizard. "What was your username?" I say, all sweetness and smiles He tells me, I look, and he's right. Shit, and I didn't even do it! Not to be outdone, I change his login directory to the null device, set his path to "." and redefine the command "news" to execute a script in his old login directory to send a nasty message to the equal opportunities officer, then delete itself. Now that's trying! KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 00:15:59 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Humor #7 BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL #7 So I manage AT LONG LAST, to get a couple of hours off for lunch, AND, because I can't leave my desk unattended, I get the janitor in and have him sit in my chair. I tell him that all he has to do is make sure the receiver doesn't accidentally get put back on the hook. He agrees and I'm off. First stop, the bank. I change a $50 note into quarters and then ask to see a balance of my account. Then I yank the power lead out of the teller's vdu. It dies. I say I'm in a hurry and is the manager around? He rolls over like a man-sized twinkie and asks what the problem is. I say that all I want is a balance of my accounts. I cross my fingers. YES! He finds the vdu lead out, plugs it in, and logs in, TO THE MANAGER'S ACCOUNT. Now's my chance - I slip up against the counter, slopping 200 coins across the counter. The manager ignores it, but all the tellers dive for the money. I watch, unobserved, as the manager types in his password at the breakneck speed of one character a minute. At that rate I should've got $100 worth.... He finishes typing. "MONEY". What a toughy! Well, that's my mortgage taken care of tonight... A user that I recognise from "D(eletion) day '89" approaches. I think he's going to talk to me. Even the bank manager is shaking his head furiously. But it's too late, he stops. "Um, excuse me, Could you tell me what is the best computer to buy to do my thesis on? ?! Right. "You've heard of Commodore 64's?" I ask "Yes?.." "Avoid them like the plague! Not many people know this, but computers aren't made to handle that much memory - it's over 64,000 things, more in some cases. It's a recipe for disaster!" "Oh!" "Try something safe and proven. A ZX81 with dual cassette drive if you can get it. The 1K ram model. Write that down. Don't buy a disk drive - You know how they're always failing, but music cassettes last forever!" "Hey thanks!" "No worries. What was your username again?" He tells me. Just in time for D-Day 92. You'd think they'd learn. I get back to work and the janitor's asleep at the terminal. I ask him if he wants to work here too, but he likes the ability to bust in on people when they're in the toilet... I put the phone back on the hook, and straight away it rings. I hate it when it does that, it takes me AGES to get my walkman phones in. It's the hottest hosemonster I've ever met, and she's got a computer problem! I love it when that happens! "What's your username?" I ask She tells me (as if I didn't know) Quick as I can I read all her e-mail (mostly boring stuff), then grep everyone else's mail files for her username. Nothing. Excellent! "What's the problem?" I ask, all smiles and charm. "I can't save my documents, it says something about space." "Not a problem for long" I say, and delete everyone else on the same disk as her. "You should be fine now.." "Thank you so much" she gushes. I make a mental note to do something to her account again tomorrow. "No worries." The phone rings almost before I've got it on the hook. "My files are all gone!" a voice whines out at me. "When did this happen?" I ask. "Just now..." he says, through the tears. "I see. Well, I wouldn't worry, there's three days till the end of the semester, if you work day and night until then, you should get at least a C-" He sobs a couple more times then hangs up. What a wimp. THE PHONE RINGS AGAIN! "The screen on my PC is really dim". The woman at the other end says "Should I wind the brightness knob up?" "NO!" I scream "Don't touch that knob! Have you any idea of the radiation that comes out of that thing when the knob gets wound up?!!!!" "Well I..." she says, all uncertain "TAKE MY ADVICE!" I say "There's only ONE way to fix a dim display, and that's by power surging the drivers" The words "power surging" and "drivers" have got her. People hear words like that and go into dummy mode and do ANYTHING you say. I could tell her to run naked across campus with a powercord rammed up her backside and she'd probably do it... Hmmm... "Have you got a spare power cord?" "No.." "Oh well, never mind, we'll have to do the power surge idea... Ok, quick as you can, I want you to flick the power switch of your PC on and off 30 times" "Should I take my disks out?" "NO! Do you want to lose all your data!?!" "Oh. No! Ok.." I listen carefully.. .. ...clicky..clikcy...clikky.. .. .. ...clicky. ...cliccy.. . . BOOM! Amazing, it probably made it to 27 - the power supply usually shits itself at 15 or so... "MY COMPUTER BLEW UP!!!" she screams at me down the line "Really? Must've been a dodgy power supply! Lucky we found out now! Is your machine still under warranty?" "NO!" "Dear oh dear. Well, Best get it repaired then. Did you backup your files?" "Yes, to the system, Yesterday, but all this morning's work is gone!" "Oh dear. What was your username, I'll just check that your backups worked ok?" She tells me.... KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 00:16:48 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Humor #8 BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL #8 I'm at my desk as usual, and a user calls. "Hello Computer Room, Simon here, How can I help" I answer "I can't get into my account!" A user mumbles at me. "What was your username please?" I say They give me their username. No worries. I look in their account. "No worries, it was just a badly made login file. I've fixed it, you should be able to login." "Thanks!" "No worries. Have a nice day!" WHAT IS THIS? you're asking yourself. Has the BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL turned over a new leaf? Sold out?! GONE INSANE?!!! Nope. The BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL is being logfiled. And if that's happen-ing, I'm being bugged as well. So I'm being nice till I can find the bugs. It shouldn't be long - bear with me. Ah. One in the phone handpeice. Basic. But then the boss is a sneaky sort, so there's probably a couple more. Ah! And another in the base of the phone and one inside my keyboard. Time for a mad coffee-spilling frenzy. This is a big job, so I bring the whole jug over and wait for a witness. The System Manager comes in. "Where's that report of mine?" he asks in a surly manner - he's obviously pissed that I haven't implicated myself yet. Antagonist Identified. As the Principal of "BASTARD OPERATOR SCHOOL" (me) will tell you, "There's no problem so large it can't be solved by killing the user off, deleting their files, closing their account and reporting their REAL earnings to the IRS" I pull his printout from under the coffee jug where I put it, and the coffee splashes all over the phone and keyboard, which for some reason were stacked on top of each other. "Woopsy!" I say, mock horror on my face. The System Manager's face tells me I was right in my guess. "Don't think you'll get away with this!" he snarls and stomps off. I click on the ethernet monitor and watch the traffic coming out of his PC. Ah! A memo, authorising the termination of my contract, going to the laser in the director's office. I make a few alterations to the file in the spool directory and let it go to it's destination. I run my dinky little program that deposits -522 to the PC and our mainframe shits itself. Later, while booting, I'll remove that nasty logfile business. Next, I wander into the comms room and plug my earphone into the spare RS232 port in the Directors office. It's amazing how simple it is to bug an office once it's got data lines going to it! Director: "Are you sure about this?" SysMgr: "OF COURSE!" Director: "You don't want to reconsider?" SysMgr "NEVER!" Director: "Very well, I'll fax it to staffing now.." SysMgr "EXCELLENT!" Two seconds later the System Manager strolls in smiling. "Well, I'll really miss you Simon.." he says, full of himself. "Oh?" I say, all sweetness and charm "Where are you going?" "No Simon" he says, with glee "You're going" "A PROMOTION!" I say "You've finally written that letter to the head of staffing telling him he's a bum-sucking arse bandit and that you quit?" "No..." "Are you sure? It's much better than the one about me being fired.." "Y.." His eyes widen slightly It's like clubbing a seal to death with a foam cushion. He runs to stop the fax. Only, having just resigned, >clicky cklikcy< his card key no longer works... Ametuers... The Phone rings. It's the same guy as before. "I can get into my account now, but I've run out of disk" "Hang on, I'll see what I can do" >clicccky<... rm -r * KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 00:17:40 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Humor #9 BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL #9 I'm driving to work and I'm stuck behind this old guy, the classic slow driver from hell, whose car red-lines at 20 mph and can't take corners at more than 5. I honk my horn but his hearing aid's probably turned way down to "whisper", so I'm stuck. I make a mental note of his license plate. In fact, I did that 60 times a minute for 15 and a half minutes. Oh dear.. oh dear.... Looks like another call to the DMV Database to register a vehicle as stolen by out of town arms dealers... I get to work, flick the excuse page over. "ELECTROMAGNETIC RADIATION FROM SATTELLITE DEBRIS". Fair enough, it looks like it's going to be a good day. I log into "FUCKYOU", (the help-desk enquiries username) and go into mail. There's 3 new messages, the first of which is 117 lines long, so it's obviously a storyteller. Shit, I hate that. Instead of saying "My account needs more disk space" they tell you about how they're doing this bit of research for a lecturer and how it's got to be in yesterday, and they almost had it but their second cousing twice removed had a perforated herpes scab and lost a lot of blood and had to be rushed into hospital... etc etc. I delete the message. Second message I read, but it's one of those people who can't handle the mail interface and send a null message, so all you get is headers. I reply to the message saying "No worries, we can do that by next tuesday". Hope it was important. The last message I leave for tommorrow, because Saturday would be a dull day if I ever had to work then. The phone rings. I thought I'd fixed that! I put it on hands free so I can slop some pizza into the microwave. "Yes" I call "Something's wrong with my Boot disk, I can't login to the server". "Have you got your disk with you?" "Sure!" I go get the disk and put it and the pizza in for 5 minutes on "ULTRA-NUKE". Six minutes later, he rings back. "It still doesn't work, and now my disk makes a funny noise and smells." "OH SHIT! It's that electromagnetic radiation from satellite debris again!" "Really? I think I heard about that!" (What a tool!) "Yep, I'm sorry, you'll have to buy another disk" "Oh, that's ok, I don't mind, the old one was getting worn. Thanks" "Sure, no worries. And be sure to run it through our virus checker FDISK when you get a lot of important data on it..." "I will! Thanks!" "That's Ok - it's my job!" Xcbzone is running really slow so I kill off a whole lot of database backends that seem to be hogging all the cpu and get back into my game. Much better. It isn't easy on the frontline, work work work... I go to the cafeteria for a quick 2 hour snack - they're so nice to me there. They always have been, ever since that computer glitch that registered their kitchen as an organ recipient - very messy. I grab a couple of cans of coke and some cheese things and cruise on back to the office via the first year computer funamentals lab. I look in the window on the scene that unfolds itself to me - a lab full of first years with no demonstrator. WELL I'LL JUST HAVE TO HELP! I walk on in. "Right, I'm your temporary replacement demonstrator and today we're going to put our assignments aside for half an hour to learn about the REMARK function, or, as it's known to the computer literate world, rm.." I should have been a teacher you know - I've got this way with people... KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 00:18:06 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Humor #10 BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL #10 I get invited to a lecture as a guest speaker in "Computing Operations Fundamentals", so I leave the control room in the capable hands of Sam, the janitor and cruise on down. The lecture starts and goes ok, then there's a 10 minute period where students get to ask a "real operator" questions that they have about operations. I get out my pad and pen. "Before we get started" I say, "could you just call out your username before you ask me a question, I find it easier to apply your problem to terms you would understand better" The lecturer eats all this up - the personal touch really gets to them. "First Question, You over there.." "What do you think of the privacy of individuals on a shared system?" "What was your username please?" "CMS1103" KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 00:14:48 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Humor #6 BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL #6 It's friday, so I get into work early, before lunch even. The phone rings. Shit! I turn the page on the excuse sheet. "SOLAR FLARES" stares out at me. I'd better read up on that. Two minutes later I'm ready to answer the phone. "Hello?" I say. "WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN, I'VE BEEN TRYING TO GET YOU ALL MORNING?!" I hate it when they shout at me early in the morning. It always puts me in a bad mood. You know what I mean. "Ah, yes. Well, there's been some solar activity this morning, it always disrupts electronics..." I say, sweet as a sugar pie. "Huh? But I could get through to my friends?!" "Yes, that's entirely possible, solar activity is very unpredictable in it's effects. Why last week, we had some files just dissappear from a guys account while he was working on it!" "Really?" "Straight Up! Hey, do you want me to check your account?" "Yes please, I've got some important stuff in there!" "Ok, what's your username..." He tells me. Honestly, it's like shooting a fish in a barrel. Twice. With an Elephant Gun. At point blank range. In the head. (Do I really need to tell you the clicky clicky bit? I think not) "How many files are in your account?" I ask "Um, well there should be about 20 in my thesis writeup, 10 or so with the data for it, and another 20 or so in a book that I'm writing" "Hmmm. Well, I think we caught it just in time. You've still got 2 files left... .cshrc and .login" "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaggggggggghhhh!" He sobs into the receiver a bit - it really turns my stomach. "What can I do?" he sniffs. "Ok, do you have any of your stuff backed up on floppy?" "Some, but it's weeks old!" I fire up the bulk eraser. "Ok" I say "How about I come out and load all that data onto your account pronto so you can get some work done?" "That'd be great, but it's all at home" he wimpers. "I spose I'll just load it all in myself tonight" "Sure. But remember what I said, solar flares are bad for disks and machines. Protect your disks from solar activity to prevent them losing their data" "How do I do that? Wrap them in tin-foil?" "NO! TIN FOIL'S THE WORST THING! YOU KNOW WHAT TIN FOIL DOES IN A MICROWAVE DON'T YOU?!" "Yes.." "Then don't use it. There's only one thing that protects disks from solar activity.." "What's that?" "MAGNETS. Wrap your disks up in a pillow case with lots of magnets - Solar Flares hate that" "Wow! Thanks" "No worries at all..." Shit I'm good! KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 00:12:14 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Humor #3 BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL #3 So I'm working so hard I barely have time to drive into town and watch a movie before I told people their printing will be ready. The queue's WAAAAY too long to have everything printed (and sorted) by the time I told them, so I kill all the small jobs so there's only 2 left and I can sort them in no time. Then, after the movie, (which was one of those slack Bertolucci ones that takes about 3 hours till the main character is killed off in a visionary experience) I get back and clear the printouts. There's about 50 people waiting outside and I've got two printouts. That's about average for me. I thought I'd killed more tho. Anyway, I put out the printouts and walk slooowly inside, fingering the clipboard with "ACCOUNTS TO REMOVE" in big letters on the back. No-one says anything. As usual. . . . I'm sitting back in the Operations Armchair, watching the computer room closed circuit TV, which just happens to be connected to the frame-grabber's Video player (sent off for repair, due back sometime in '94) when the phone rings. That must be the 2nd time today, and it's really starting to get to me! "Yes?" I say, pausing the picture. "I've accidentally deleted my C.V!" the voice at the other end of the line says. "You have? What was your username?" He tells me. What the hell, I AM bored. "Ah no, you didn't delete it - I did." "What?" "I deleted it. It was full of shit! You didn't ever get more than a B- in any of your subjects!" "Huh?" "And that crap about being a foreign exchange student, that was your girlfriend and we both know it." "Huh?!!" "Your academic records. I checked them, you were lying.." "How did y.." He clicks. "It's you isn't it? THE BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL!" "In the flesh, on the phone and in your account.... You shouldn't have called you know. You especially shouldn't have given me your username.." >clickety< >click< "Neither should you have sent that mail to the System Manager telling him what you think of him in graphic terms..." "I didn't send any.." >clickety< >click<...... "No, you didn't did you? But who can tell these days. Not to worry though, It'll all be over VERY soon.." >clickedy clikc< "..change my username back, and..." "b-b-b.." he blubs, like a stood-up date "Goodbye now" I say pleasantly, "you've got bags to pack and a life to start over..." I hang up. Two seconds later the red phone goes. I pick it up, it's the boss. He mumbles the username of the person I was just talking to, mentions something about a nasty mail message, and utters the words "You know what to do...", with the dots and everything. Later, inside the Municipal Energy Authority Computer, as I'm modifying the poor pleb's Energy Bill by several zeros, I can't help but think about what lapse of judgement - what act of heinous stupidity causes them to call. Then, even later, when I'm adding the poor pleb's photo image over the top of the FBI's online "MOST Wanted Armed and Dangerous, SHOOT ON SIGHT" offenders list, I realise, I'll probably never know; but life goes on. A couple of hours later, as I see the SWAT vehicle roll up outside the poor pleb's apartment I realise that for some, it just doesn't. But tommorrow is another day. KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 11:09:37 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Perica Babanovski Subject: Vo presret na MOV '95 Vnimanie, sledi vic. Rated: R --------- Mesto na nastan: kafana "LOVAC" - Kumanovo. Na masata prazni ccasski od rakija, poluprazni ccassi so vino, nekolku tavi od kumanovski mezal'k (mmmm, go zaboravivme vo delot za makedonski gurmanluci). Okolu masata isposednato veselo drusstvo i razgovara sekoj so sekogo. Vo glavna uloga: dvajca novo-komponirani bizmismeni (ne e peccatna grsska) od gorespomenatiot grad. - Abe, aj malce tissina, da vi kazzu kako besse, sve po red. Ja i pobro bemo ti, neli, u Milano, u Italiju. Ccule ste za on'j tim kude igra Panccev, neli. E, pa bemo ti mi tamo, u t'j ist grad, da mavamo bizmis sas zzabari. Zavrssimo ssto imasmo da zavrssimo, i odluccimo poslednju veccer da idemo ti mi fino-lepo u teatar. Ccule ste valjda za onija slavni Milanski Slube. Idemo mi da vadimo karte za veccernju pretstavu na balet. Prassuju gu prodavaccku na karte dali ima negde blisko kude da si meznemo sirenje sas salaticcku i da si pijnemo rakijccku. Ona zinala u mene kako tele u ssarena vrata, gleda me i ccudi se. Na kraj mi vika: "Abe, da si kupite joss ednu kartu, pa stavite si meze i rakiju na sedisste izmedju vas, nema problem." Ja gu gledam nessto ccudno, pa vikam: "Aj, nek ti bide. Daj vamo tri karte." E, zemamo ja i pobro meze i rakiju, casske i tanjircciki i pravo u milanski slube. Stignamo tamo tri saata pred poccetak, taman da si zememo dussu malce. Meznamo si ubavo, ama pusta rakija, malce besse. Samo ssto zavrssimo sas mezenje, dojdeva muzikanti i poccnava da sviriv. Abe, ssto da vi kazzuju, nemav blage veze sas muziku. Ovija nassi vranjski cigani mozze da gi vikamo "Maestro" i kapu da im skimnemo. I taman spremimo se sas pobru da si idemo, k'd iskocci ed'n malecak, kelav cciccica, obleccen u kaput sas opass, zastana pred muzikanti, izvadi od pod kaput ednu stapetinku i zapreti im: "Ili ke svirite kako treba, ili ke vi e*u majku!". Abe, da znajess kako ubavo poccnava da sviriv, mene tuga okolo srce me stisnala. Svireva takoj muzikanti, svireva, tiki odedanput dignava se ccerge. K'd tamo, ssto ke vidimo, edna kurva da ti se soblaccala gola. Zdrvi se, jadna, k'd vide deka tolko narod gu gleda, pa fati da trcci navam-natam po daske. Nema kude da se skrie. K'd ono, da ne ti bide sama. Pojavi se i ed'n kurvar koj bija sas njuma. Pa i on k'd gu pomava, jadna, da ne znae dali da bega od njega ili da se krie od publiku. Mavava ti se oni takoj po daske, mavava se, ama na kraj ov'j gu zgrapcci, digna gu gore, pomirissa gu, pa dal mu zasmrde, ssto li mu bidna, k'd gu zadzzipi... I spusstiva se t'ga ccerge. E, toj da ti bide balet. E, ama ne e toj kraj na priccu. Ja i pobro iskaccamo od salu i ssto da vidimo, guzzva se stvara. Aj, da ne iskoccimo prosti, da ne propusstimo nessto ssto ni je pod nos, otidemo da vidimo ssto se dessava. K'd tamo, deliv kaputi. Ja si zema ccetiri, a i pobro ne zema pomalko. Neka se najdev za doma, leb i vodu ne trazziv. Aj, zziveli s'ga. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Se nadevam deka kje vi se dopadne vicot. Dokolku ne, mozze da se zzalite na Kire. I onaka ovie denovi groto od replikite bea nameneti za nego. Pa, da ne izleze ccovekot od forma, nema smisla. Samo se sseguvam. Primetivte, neli? Pozdrav do site MAKEDON-ki/ci/ccinja Perica ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 14:36:03 GMT-5 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: VLADIMIR OGNJANOVSKI Organization: Indiana State University Subject: Re: Kire & Opozicijata Bube pisuva: > po lugeto koi ja formiraja partijata, (Gosev, Marijanovic, Panovski i dr.) > pobrgu bi gi definiral kako partija na centarot (po malku desno orientirana) Koga se formirase partijata navistina bese partija na centarot, megjutoa podocna zavrte nesto povekje od "malku" kon desno. Toa e i osnovnata pricina zasto partijata (koja iskreno receno imase golemi sansi da gi dobie ovie izbori) pomina slabo na izborite (dali se namesteni ili neorganizirani-toa e diskutabilno prasanje). Partijata (Gosev) gi pravese istite greski na DPMNE. Prvo sto pocna so izrazen anti-albanizam (albanofobija), drugo, dominanten nacin na sopstvena promocija i bese preizrazeno napagjanje na protivnikot po principot "drzte go lopovot" (sto vo eden moment pocna da iritira), namesto sopstvenata promocija i nametnuvanje na glasacot da gi vrsi so istaknuvanje na sopstvenite prednosti (programa, stav kon demokratijata i sl). Da go analizirase dotogasniot nastap na DPMNE, i da ucese od nivnite greski DP sega ke bese partijata sto ke slavese pobeda. > No problemot vo MK e vo toa sto ne postoi politicka > atmosfera, koja bi dozvolila alijansa duri megu politicki subjekti so mnogu > pobliski gledista i interesi. I opozicijata ne se pokaza imuna na nasledstvo > to > na bivsiot sistem i "brain wash"-ot. Samata organizacija na politickite part > ii > vo MK, e primitivna. Site se organizirani po ugled na starit SK, so centraln > i > komiteti. Aktivnosta i imidzot na partiite naj cesto se vrzani za edna licno > st > (liderot na partijata, koj e for ever) ili mala grupa okulu nego. Clenstvoto > > obicno treba samo da slusa, a ako ne se slozuva togas moze da si formira svo > ja > partija (od tuka tolku mnogu partii vo tolku mala zemja). Toa samo govori za nedovolnata zrelost na opozicijata. Ako, nim navistina im e vazna idninata na makedonija, a ne toa koj ke bide na vlast, ke sednea, ke se dogovorea i ke nastapea zaednicki. Megjutoa, site tie "lideri" i lidercinja se tolku samouvereni i bolni za vlast, koja tolku mnogu ja posakuvaat i ne sakaat da ja delat so drugi, sto prosto se zaslepeni i ne gledaat sto se slucuva okolu niv. Posle nekoj drug im e kriv sto komunistite povtorno dobivaat povekje glasovi. Toa go pokazuva i golemiot broj opoziioni partii vo makedonija. Vnatrepartiskata borba ne e borba na razlicni idei, tuku borba za toa koj ke bide lider (ovcar), i sekoj sto ne se slozuva so aktuelniot lider (se sekjavas na ona "hocu da budem kalif umesto kalifa) si formira svoe, pomalo i ne tolku silno stado. Taka namesto vo Makedonija da imame edna ZDRAVA, kvalitatna opoziciona partija vo koja ke se vodi borba megju razlicni (megjutoa ne i sprotivni) idei, imame edno cudo mali i nekvalitetni partiicki, koi sami ama bas nisto ne i mozat na pozicijata. Toa sto e nedostatok na opoziijata e prednost na pozicijata. 3 glavni levo orientirani partii, koi sekogas koga e potrebno, naogjaat zadnicki jazik i nastapuvaat edinstveno. I bidi siguren deka ke gi dobivaat site naredni izbori se dodeka clenovite na opozicijata se borat koj da bide ovcar na svoeto stado. >Samo toj siste > m > ne bi postoel ako ne postojat ovci. A bez ovci nema ni sisanje. > > Po nekogas se prasuvam, dali opozicijata e dovolno vnatresno silna da go sr > usi > ovoj sistem ili samo se obiduva da bide noviot ovcar. Ocigledno e..... Tokmu toe e i poentata na celokupnata moja dosegasna diskusija. Onie sto ja sledat bez "crno-belite" naocari, verojatno svatija deka so nieden zbor ne ja pofaliv segasnata vlast. Daleku sum od pozitivno mislenje za nea. Megjutoa, i pokraj site negativnost sto taa gi pokaza, morame da priznaeme deka ne se bas site nejzini postapki ni tolku losi. Se slozuvam deka e vreme e za promeni, no nema nisto poloso od promena, zaradi promena. A alternativite sto vo momentov ni se nudat se tokmu toa. Ostanuva (kako sto vekje ednas rekov) od trite zla da se izbere najmaloto, sto ama ic ne me raduva. > Levite samo go polzuvaat svojot prirodno > vroden hipokritizam (bratstvo edinstvo=sozitelstvo). Ne, tuku se obiduvaat problemite da gi resat bez pogolemi potresi i na nacin sto ke gi zadovoli i dvete strani. > (dosega kaj niv [albancite] nekoi raboti dosta ubavo rabotat). Toa e zatoa sto se edninstveni vo svoite stavovi, i osnovniot motiv im e nivnite celi da se postignat, a ne im e bitno KOJ ke go ostvari toa. > Samo se plasam da ne zaglavat vo vodite > na malo-graganizmot, kako sto znaese Ligata za Demokratija da zaglavi > porano. Tie mozebi ke bidat glavnata sila za gradenje na noviot sistem. > Jas iskreno se nadevam.... megjutoa, za zal izgleda do togas ke pomine uste mnogu vreme (ucenjeto na tugjite greski nikogas ne ni bilo jaka strana). > Sepak resenieto go gledam vo edukacija vo nov oblik (privatni skoli, > slobodni mediumi). A tuka po se izgleda makedonskata emigracija ke treba > da dade pridones. A vo nea spagame i jas i ti Misko, kako i pogolem del > na preplatnicite na MAKEDON. Ako ne se lazam, toa ne moze da se postigne ako nikoj od nas ne se vrati doma. Vlatko O. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 15:44:34 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Pismo do nepoznatoto "drugarce" Zoja. Hey Vlatko Cingoski: Prvo se javuvash na Makedon i si zemash sloboda da me vregash kako jas cel den nishto ne sum rabotela i samo poraki sum chekala. Potoa mi prakash poraki (zoshto privatno, jas nemam nishto da krijam i od nishto ne se sramam?) koishto lugeto tebe ti pratile privatno za da mi se pofalish i da mi dokazhesh deka imash luge na tvoja strana i na nekogo jas sum mu odela na nervi. Pretty pathetic, I would say. Sega pak mi velish: " no nemoj da si zemas takva sloboda da nekogo kogo ne go poznavas dovolno go ramnis na isto ramniste so tebe," koga ti ochigledno si zemash sekakvi slobodi i donesuvash zakljuchoci za mene. Ne mi e jasno od kade ti mene me poznavash, da mozhesh da davash izjavi kako: "Vtoro treba da sfatis deka site ne se kako tebe i deka ima luge vo Makedonija koi so svojot trud i rabota kako i so vrednbostite koi gi poseduvaat uspeale da se izborat za pozicijata i mestoto koja ja imaat vo zivotot." i "ova e samo uste eden dokaz deka premnogu dobro se poznavas sebe si," i t.n. I ushte ednash povtoruvam, ostani na temite koi se zboruvaat na MAKEDON, i prestani lichno da napagash. Tolku jas imav da kazham, ne zasluzhuvash poveke so tebe da si go gubam vremeto. Neka ti e so sreka. Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 15:59:08 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Si odat, si odat... Hi Perica: Jas se slozhuvam so se ti shto kazha. Sepak, ponekogash mi se chini deka nie (Makedoncite) premnogu ochekuvame opshtestvoto da stori za nas. Na primer, stalno se zhalime (veke so godini) za nashata vlada, nashite upraviteli, no nema nekoe poorganizirano dvizhenje neshto da se promeni. Mi izgleda ponekogash deka chekame spasitelot da dojde. Ami, eve neli pak lugeto glasale za istite rakovoditeli, tie shto , spored nekoj, i go dovedoa ova opshtestvo do kade e sega. Site se zhalime za korupcija, no pak "pile ili bomboniera mu nosime na doktorot ili zaposluvachot" (ova e metaforichno, nemoj na vrat da mi ripnete i da go sfatite bukvalno.) Ne velam deka jas ili ti sami mozheme se da promenime, no sekoj mozhe neshto malku/ili mnogu da doprinese. Od druga strana pak, ima korupcija i vo SAD i vrski i rodnini igaat isto golema uloga, samo SAD e tolku ogromna i lugeto se mnogu mobilni, taka da seto toa e na drugo nivo. Ljubljana e dobar primer. Tochno e deka Makedonija treba da gi "neguva" i iskoristvuva svoite talenti. No pokraj toa, makedonskite talenti treba da se inventivni, da prevzemaat inicijativa, da gi mobiliziraat lugeto i da stvaraat sami biznisi i rabotni mesta za sebesi i za drugite. I da, eden nachin e da se pronajdat patishtata za dobivanje na obrazovanie vo dobri svetski univerziteti, kako shto vie ste storile. Da se nauchi kako se raboti na svetsko nivo i da se prenesat znaenjata. na primer, neli zborevme so Boris deka toj, i site vie, treba da napishe kniga za drugite studenti da se zapoznaat so mozhnostite da se studira vo stranstvo. Jas se sekavam koga bev tamu vo uchilishte mislev deka studiranje vo stranstvo e eden nedostapen son za koj morash da imash teshki vrski. Verojatno mnogu drugi deca tamu seushte go delat toj vpechatok. Sakam da kazham , da , ne chini vo Makedonija, no se zavisi od vas/nas dali toa ke se promeni. Ne samo kritiki, tuku i konstruktivni predlozi i reshenija da se diskutiraat. Mozhe ova na mnogu ke im se chini premnogu idealno, no toa chuvstvo na bezpomoshnost e shto gi drzhi makedoncite pokoreni. Amerikancite, od druga strana, sakaat da zhiveat so mototo "I can do anything I set my mind to" and "we are not going to take this." Dodeka nie ne pochneme da ja prevzemame taa filozofija i chekame Gligorov ili Georgievskli ili Goshev da ni ja reshi problematikata, nishto ne pravime. Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 16:17:14 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Kire & Opozicijata RE: Samata organizacija na politickite partii vo MK, e primitivna. Site se organizirani po ugled na starit SK, so centralni komiteti. Aktivnosta i imidzot na partiite naj cesto se vrzani za edna licnost (liderot na partijata, koj e for ever) ili mala grupa okulu nego. Clenstvoto obicno treba samo da slusa, a ako ne se slozuva togas moze da si formira svoja partija (od tuka tolku mnogu partii vo tolku mala zemja). Idejata za partiski konvencii, frakcii i usoglasuvanja na interesi im e na site strana, kolku sto im bese stran poimot demokratija pred 15 god. Partiite ne izgledaat na politi- cki organizacii kade lugeto so isti i slicni interesi i idei se sobrani za da na najdobar nacin istite gi ostvarat, po pat na izlaganje na razliciti stavovi i gledista. Imamame samo odnos na ovcar i stado. Vo takva situacija pozicijata e nadmokna REPLY: Seto ova se vodi na patrijahalniot model na familijata/opshestvoto. Glavata na "familijata" i tie shto treba sosem da go slushaat, koi se isto vo odredena hierarhija. Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 18:08:17 GMT-5 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: VLADIMIR OGNJANOVSKI Organization: Indiana State University Subject: Re: Si odat, si odat... Zoya: > No pokraj toa, makedonskite talenti treba da se > inventivni, da prevzemaat inicijativa, da gi mobiliziraat lugeto i da > stvaraat sami biznisi i rabotni mesta za sebesi i za drugite. Se slagam so tebe Zoja. Na toa se odnesuvase i del od mojata diskusija. Megjutoa, kaj nas seuste vazi filozofijata "da si najdam jas ladovina vo drzavna rabota". A, dodeka da ja najdat ladovinata, visat na spisok kako nevraboteni i si go gubat dragocenoto vreme po kafani. Nema vise zagarantirano rabotno mesto. Sekoj treba SAM da si obezbedi egzistencija, a eden od nacinite e i sopstven biznis. Uste eden problem e toa sto kaj nas cim se spomene biznis se misli na bogatenje (pa duri i preku nokj), a ne kako na uste eden od nacinite da se obezbedi pristoen prosecen zivot. > I da, eden > nachin e da se pronajdat patishtata za dobivanje na obrazovanie vo dobri > svetski univerziteti, kako shto vie ste storile. Da se nauchi kako se raboti > na svetsko nivo i da se prenesat znaenjata. A ne da se misli kako da se izbega od tamu i nikogas povekje da ne se vrati... > Sakam da kazham , da , ne chini vo Makedonija, no se zavisi od vas/nas dali > toa ke se promeni. Ne samo kritiki, tuku i konstruktivni predlozi i > reshenija da se diskutiraat. Ne, nie cekame prvo da ni obezbedat idealni uslovi, pa posle da pocneme da predlagame resenija/rabotime/sozdavame. Koga ednas ke svatime deka NIE sme tie sto gi sozdavame uslovite. > Amerikancite, od druga strana, sakaat da zhiveat so mototo "I can > do anything I set my mind to" and " Ona sto najmnogu mi smeta kaj nas e toa sto site razmisluvaat negativno, nihilisticki. Ne moze da ti se sluci nesto ubavo ako non stop ocekuvas da ti se sluci nesto loso. THINK POSITIVE !!! Nekoj predhodno spomna za toa na makedon deka, kaj nas nikoj nikogo ne fali. Ama za toa, za kritikuvanje, prvi sme. Ova ne cini, onoj e glup, onega ne go biva, onoj e kriv sto mene mi e loso... Ova pocnuva uste od osnovno skolo (ucitelkite gi vikaat roditelite samo ako imaat da im kazat deka deteto im e loso), prodolzuva vo sredno, a kulminira na fakultet (profesorot se trudi da vidi kolku NE znaes i sto NE si naucil, a ne kolku znaes). Taka, od strav da ne bide kritikuvan mladiot covek nisto ne ni prezema. Po zavrsuvanjeto na obrazovanieto covekot izleguva taka NEGATIVNO "brainwashed" i nastroen, sto odbrambeniot mehanizam mu nalaga i toj da kritikuva se i sekogo. I taka u krug... Zatoa THINK POSITIVE !!! i ke vidite kako ke trgne na podobro. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Za pocetok, Kire moze da ne informira i za toa kako stojat rabotite na JAZZ festivalot, kako pomina MAKFEST, koj izdal nova kaseta, sto se slucuva vo muzikata (pop - folk). Ne zastana valjda zemjata so izborite... \\"// ) * * ( \___/ Vlatko O. PS. Ne znam dali toa sto probav da go nacrtam lici na "smiley" (poveke lici na kvisko), ama... malku fantazija.... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 19:55:48 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: YES Subject: Re: Humor #1 In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 1 Nov 1994 00:10:59 PST from To whom it may concern: Please remove me from your mailing list effective immediately. Thank You, E. Netos ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:28:59 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: Transliteracija In-Reply-To: <9411011111.AA17423@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija" at Oct 31, 94 07:03:25 pm > > Ne prochitav nikakvi komentari na tekstot za > transliteracija? > 1. Po koj raspored kje pishuvame na ovaa lista? > 2. Zainteresirani li ste za file-ovite koi gi spomenav? > 3. Kje voveduvame li paralelno kirilichno/latinichno > pishuvanje? > > Pozdrav, > KiRe ViDiMCHe > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - > = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = > = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = > - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Hi this is just a test, I want to check something out, so don't bother. Alex ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:46:51 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: no subject Just hating this system Alex. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:56:05 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: Transliteracija In-Reply-To: <9411021131.AA13579@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Aleksandar Aleksov" at Nov 2, 94 12:28:59 pm > > Ne prochitav nikakvi komentari na tekstot za > transliteracija? > 1. Po koj raspored kje pishuvame na ovaa lista? > 2. Zainteresirani li ste za file-ovite koi gi spomenav? > 3. Kje voveduvame li paralelno kirilichno/latinichno > pishuvanje? > > Pozdrav, > KiRe ViDiMCHe > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - > = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = > = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = > - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Hi Kire i site ostanati, bidejki vo Makedonija demokratskite glasanja se osporeni jas predlagam da sprovedema na Makedon edno glasanje za nachinot na transliteracija. 1. Jas sum za sledniov nachin: gj,zh,dz,lj,nj,kj,ch,dzh posebno od prichina shto lj,nj oficijalno taka se pishuva. 2. Za zhal go izbrishav tvojot fajl, taka da nema odgovor za ova. 3. Ne doagja vo predvid, jas sum striktno protiv ! Primi pozdravi od Alex P.S. Ne da sum vljuben vo moeto ime, no koga nekoj od the rest of Makedon kje pratat Mail sekogash pishuva od kogo e porakata, dodeka kaj mene pishuva namesto ime samo To Multiple recipients..... What's wrong !!!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:29:09 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Sasha Konechni Subject: Transliteracija In-Reply-To: <9411011111.AA07347@sun4nl.NL.net> > Ne prochitav nikakvi komentari na tekstot za > transliteracija? > 1. Po koj raspored kje pishuvame na ovaa lista? Mene mi izgleda deka najdobro bi bilo da pochneme da ja koristime transliteracijata predlozena vo predlog standardot, (C) Medis Informatika 1994, imeno tockata (E) vo pismoto od Kire. Imam tuke edno prasanje, zamerka. Ovaa tranliteracija se razlikuva smao vo edna bukva od povkjeto drugi transliteracii koi shto jas sum gi videl i upotrebuval. Se raboti za kirilichnata bukva "C" kako vo cveke ili Goce Ovaa bukva vo poveketo transliteracii se pisuva so dve latinksi bukvi: TS tsveke, ili Gotse Me interesira dali nekoj znae zoshto vo Makedonskata transliteracija predlozhena od Medis Informatika ne e upotrebeno "ts" tuku "c"? Kako shto gledate i jas samiot upotrebuvam "c" namesto "ts". Ova go pravam bidejkji mi e polesno, no se prashuvam dali mozhebi ne e podobro da se koristi neshto shto e vekje vo shiroka upotreba, otkolku neshto shto e vo upotreba samo megju nas. Imam ushte edno prasanje. Dali nekoj znae shto kje bide so oficijalnite dokumenti, kako na primer pasoshi i izvodi od matichni knigi. Imeno, transliteracijata na Makedonskite iminja na ovie dokumenti e mnogu vazhna rabota, narochno za nas koi sme nadvor od M. Dosega na ovie dokumenti se koristeshe Hrvatskata latinica, shto e mnogu nezgodna tuka vo stranstvo. Na primer moeto ime na makedonskiot pasosh e napishano: v Sasa Se razbira deka vo stranstvo najchesto nemaat mozhnosti da go napishat sh so kapata i toa se pretvara vo "s", taka da moeto ime stanuva Sasa Ova nikoj ne znae kako da go izgovori. Mnogu bi bilo fino koga i na pasoshite i drugite dokumenti bi se upotrebuvala transliteracijata predlozena od Medis. Me intresira dali ima nekoi oficijalni predlozi vo Makedonija i vo vrska so ova? > 2. Zainteresirani li ste za file-ovite koi gi spomenav? Jas rabotam na Unix i Mac. No verojatno e dobro da gi stavime programite na nekoe mesto kade shto ke bidat pritapni do site, pa koj saka mozhe da si gi zeme. Edno mozhno mesto e databankata na listserverot kade shoto e makedon. Treba da se vidi samo kako ova da se izvede tehnichki. > 3. Kje voveduvame li paralelno kirilichno/latinichno > pishuvanje? > Ova mi izgleda mnogu teshko izvodlivo vo praktika. Niz svetov se upotrebuvaat mnogu razlichni kompjuteri, Unix, Vax, Mac, PC, i mnogu drugi od lugjeto koi chitaat makedon. PC se samo eden mal del od upotrebuvanite. Softwerot koj shto momentalno postoi e samo za PC. Ovoj software da se prevede na sekoj mozhen sistem e golema rabota i teshko izvodliva. Sasha ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:27:46 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: transliteracija zdravo Kire i site ostanati, Bidejki vo Makedonija demokratskite glasanja se osporeni, barem nie da glasame za metodot na koj shto kje komunicirame preku makedon. Se nadevam deka barem tuka nema da ima manipulacii... 1. Jas sum za metodot ch,sh,zh,dzh,gj,kj,lj,nj - pogotovo poradi toa shto lj,gj,lj,nj se vo oficijalna upotreba. 2. Za zhal go izbrishav tvojot tekst, a memorijava ne me sluzhi bash najdobro, taka da neznam za koi fajlovi zboruvash. 3. No way, nikako paralelno kirilica i latinica, jas sum protiv toa. Pozdravi Alex ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 08:47:27 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: bage Subject: jogurt i burek To: makedon@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Subject: jogurt i burek Edno osvezuvajne: Jogurt i burek Edemo ja i Stefka burek, i cudimo se. Dobar burek, nema ni mnogo voda u jogurt. Zasto? Sto e razlog za dobar kvalitet i zasto e dobar burek k't ni pekari ni direktor na mlekari ne se kandidirav za pratenici? Takoj mislejci zasto ga pogodile pekari burek i zasto opozicija gi utnala izbori, pocnamo jos po ed'n cetvrt s's meso. Objasnue mi ona s's mrsni ruke kako vu dale dvojku na izbiracko mesto zatoj sto gu nemalo u spisak a nemala ni uverenje za drzavjanstvo, a ja s's puni usta vikam "Takoj e! Trebaja e Frckovski da dojde licno kude tebe i da ti donese 100 grama kafe i uverenje za drzavjanstvo, posto ti celu godinu prodavas zevala i ne moga da si izvadis edno uverenje!" Zazbori se covek pa se zabravi. K't se osvestimo, iskoci deka smo izele po dva cetvrta i dve osminke, po stomak i usta na gragjanke sto gi nema u izbiracki spisak! Samo sto iskocimo od "Beli peciva" i pojdemo nakude pazar, pocna Stefka da ofka, da se sviva i da zapomaga, kako da vu e Pero Gosev od cicu brat! "Ovoj e falsifikat burek, ovoj e sabotaza i namestaljka, skida me zeludac i obrca mi se stomak!" Tam'n da gu pridrzu i da gu odvedu do prvu klupu, snemogna i ja! Muka mi, loso mi! Pocna da pljukam kako opozicija, ama nacionalna, i da trazu sodu bikarbonu u tasnu! Idemo dvete, tetravimo se, zanesamo se, neznaemo sto da pravimo. Ja kako VMRO u desno, ona kako Demokratska u centar, pa na desno! Da idemo natamo, da ne idemo, da stoimo, da senemo.. Nema sanse da stignemo do pazar, svesni smo, ama inaet ne ni dava da se vratimo s's prazni krosnje! Ne se trpi muka od stomak, ne mozemo natamo peski do pazar i nazad, ama ne se trpi majtap od Evku k't ce ne vidi kude se vracamo prazni od pazar: "sto e ovoj komsike, ostanase vi omiljeni partie bez glasovi, a vi gledam ostanale ste bez pazrl'k! Duplo prazno!" Svesni za poseldice, iznenadeni i zbunjeni od neocekuvan razvoj na dogagjaji, pocnamo da se vrtimo u krug da najdemo nekoe avto, polk drzejci se za stomak da se odvlecemo do doma, ama Stefka insistirase da napravimo na lice mesto miting i ed'n miran protest s's nemirno vikanje i parole: "Uaaa burek! Izlzavane da se pree(j)demo! Sve da se ponisti, da ni gi vrativ pare i mesto s's meso da si kupime burek s's sirenje, ili eventualno po dve mekice!" Kako se bese zapalila Stefka, ona bese spremna i da telefonira od prvu kafanu i da ga vika prestavnici KEBS, Savet za Evropu i sl. ama ja zastana pred njum kako Ljupce pred masu pred Sobranie i kaza: "Am'n nemoj, i mi ce se izblanirano! sto ako ne prasav koj ne teraja da edemo po ednu tepsiju burek? Sto ako kazev deka drzava i megjunarodna zaednica ne odgovarav za golem apetit i mal kapacitet na zeludnik na dve gladne za vlast, odnosno burek, partiski opredelene zene?" I dobro sto gu smiri! Ne se buta drzava i ne se praviv nemiri zatoj sto nekoga ne ga izglasale, a ne se ide ni protiv kumanovski burek i nadaleko cuen jogurt zatoj sto na nekoga mu se usladilo, pa zaboravija kolko i sto moze! Plus toj, ov'j narot e na kraj na izdrzljivost! Izdrza muski kampanju za prv krug, izdrza zenski izbori, s'k se trudi da izdrzi silno vikanje i plakanje na deca sto mislejale deka ce gi dadev cokoladu a dale gi lizavce. Dali s'k mi dve treba da ga dokusurimo? Sto e drzava bez vlas i sto e dorucak bez burek? Nisto! Doma k't stignamo, cutajce ulegnamo u portu i odma ispimo po edn "reglan". Ne rucamo, preskocimo gu i veceru, samo ne gu preskocimo emisiju u koju pozicija i opozicija se raspravljava zasto da idev i zasto da ne idev u drugi krug. Gledamo i cutamo. Samo u edn moment k't mu se obrna Ljupco na Frcka i k't mu kaza sve sto mu tekna, k't mu nabroi za sto sve e kriv, Stefka plesna s's ruke: "Mico, pa ov'j zabravi da mu kaze deka e kriv i za nas burek!? steta, b's ubavo i efektno ce si ga zavrsese govor!" Ja ne moga nisto da kazu, posto on k't zavrsi pojde mi nesto nagore. Zatoj odma se fati za kutiju lekovi i udri jos ed'n reglan, a kako pojacanje i ed'n apaurin. Pozdrav od Stefka i Mica ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 13:04:47 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Humor #11 Po greshka, prikaznata za Operatorot vo Humor #10 beshe skratena. Eve ja vo kompletnata verzija, koja ima i soodveten kraj. BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL #10 I get invited to a lecture as a guest speaker in "Computing Operations Fundamentals", so I leave the control room in the capable hands of Sam, the janitor and cruise on down. The lecture starts and goes ok, then there's a 10 minute period where students get to ask a "real operator" questions that they have about operations. I get out my pad and pen. "Before we get started" I say, "could you just call out your username before you ask me a question, I find it easier to apply your problem to terms you would understand better" The lecturer eats all this up - the personal touch really gets to them. "First Question, You over there.." "What do you think of the privacy of individuals on a shared system?" "What was your username please?" "CMS1103" >Scratchy scritch< "Computer Privacy... Hmmm. This is a toughy really. You mean stuff like reading the email between you and your counsellor about you not wanting to come out of the closet?" "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGH!" "AH. Well, he seems to have left - must have picked a bad COMPLETELY RANDOM example. Next question. You, over there..." "CMS1136. I was.." "Ah yes, 1136 the only person on campus who subscribes to alt.sex.buggery.by. sailors.dressed.in.mums.clothing" "It's purely for research purposes!" "I'm sure it is. You do a lot of story posting for a researcher don't you?" "NNGggggAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGHGH!" "Next please..." ... .. Two minutes later, the lecture theatre's empty. That's the problem with students today, they just don't want to learn. I go back to control and Sam's asleep at the console again. I think he's after my job. I make a mental note to tap into the salary database and cancel his health and accident insurance payments. You can't be too careful.. I put the phone on the hook for the first time this afternoon and it starts ringing almost immediately. THAT'S IT! I redirect it to 911 catch a bit of shuteye. That'll teach them. OOPS! Almost forgot to turn over the excuse calendar. "STATIC FROM NYLON UNDERWEAR" Nope, too plausable - although in some cases I could do an on-site check. Nah, can't be stuffed. I'll pick another one. "STATIC FROM PLASTIC SLIDE RULES" Now THAT'S one with a challenge! I unredirect the phone and drag the rubbish bin so it rests on the printer's stacker - another job well done. The phone rings - this could be the big one! "Hello?" "Hi, Um, how do I spell-check my file?" "Simple, just type `spell' and the filename" "Thanks". I'm so bloody nice this morning. Especially as I know that my version of spell introduces errors instead of detecting them. Things like changing friend to freind and vice-versa. What the hell. The phone rings - it's them again. "There's something wrong with spell". "What makes you think that?" "Because my file is all corrupt now!" "That doesn't sound like spell to me. Are you logged into thru PC?" "Yes, but I can.." "Please, leave the technical diagnosis to me... Now, is there a plastic ruler somewhere on or in the desk?" "Um >clunka<, yes..." "Right. You've got a static buildup on your hard-drive caused by the changing electrostatic field generated by the ruler - the same one that makes bits of paper stick to it when you rub it up and down your arm..." DUMMY MODE ON "Oh. What do I do?" "You know how you get paper off a ruler by hitting it on a table lots of times? Well do that with your PC. Say 20 times - lift it about a foot off the desk & drop it." "Oh. OK" >crash< >crash< >crash< "Um, the screen went dark" "That's ok, it's supposed to do that - keep going. And when you're finished, do the screen as well, that static may have gone up the wires to it." >crash< >crash< >crash<... I hang up. I get up and go out to the public area to put honey in the floppy drives when a guy who looked like Lee Harvey Oswald runs up to me and shoots me, only the sound comes from the machine room, and I can hear the ex System-Managers chuckle.... Later, in the ambulance, I realise. I forgot to get the guys username... Then everything goes dark. --------- KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 13:05:58 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Pozicija-Opozicija Vlatko reche: > Toa samo govori za nedovolnata zrelost na opozicijata. Ako, nim > navistina im e vazna idninata na makedonija, a ne toa koj ke bide na > vlast, ke sednea, ke se dogovorea i ke nastapea zaednicki. Megjutoa, > site tie "lideri" i lidercinja se tolku samouvereni i bolni za vlast, > koja tolku mnogu ja posakuvaat i ne sakaat da ja delat so drugi, sto > prosto se zaslepeni i ne gledaat sto se slucuva okolu niv. Posle nekoj > drug im e kriv sto komunistite povtorno dobivaat povekje glasovi. > > Toa go pokazuva i golemiot broj opoziioni partii vo makedonija. > Vnatrepartiskata borba ne e borba na razlicni idei, tuku borba za toa > koj ke bide lider (ovcar), i sekoj sto ne se slozuva so aktuelniot > lider (se sekjavas na ona "hocu da budem kalif umesto kalifa) si > formira svoe, pomalo i ne tolku silno stado. Taka namesto vo > Makedonija da imame edna ZDRAVA, kvalitatna opoziciona partija vo > koja ke se vodi borba megju razlicni (megjutoa ne i sprotivni) idei, > imame edno cudo mali i nekvalitetni partiicki, koi sami ama bas nisto > ne i mozat na pozicijata. > > Toa sto e nedostatok na opoziijata e prednost na pozicijata. 3 glavni > levo orientirani partii, koi sekogas koga e potrebno, naogjaat > zadnicki jazik i nastapuvaat edinstveno. I bidi siguren deka ke gi > dobivaat site naredni izbori se dodeka clenovite na opozicijata se > borat koj da bide ovcar na svoeto stado. > > Ocigledno e..... Tokmu toe e i poentata na celokupnata moja dosegasna > diskusija. Onie sto ja sledat bez "crno-belite" naocari, verojatno > svatija deka so nieden zbor ne ja pofaliv segasnata vlast. Daleku sum > od pozitivno mislenje za nea. Megjutoa, i pokraj site negativnost sto > taa gi pokaza, morame da priznaeme deka ne se bas site nejzini > postapki ni tolku losi. Se slozuvam deka e vreme e za promeni, no > nema nisto poloso od promena, zaradi promena. A alternativite sto vo > momentov ni se nudat se tokmu toa. Ostanuva (kako sto vekje ednas > rekov) od trite zla da se izbere najmaloto, sto ama ic ne me raduva. > > Levite samo go polzuvaat svojot prirodno > > vroden hipokritizam (bratstvo edinstvo=sozitelstvo). > > > Ne, tuku se obiduvaat problemite da gi resat bez pogolemi potresi i > na nacin sto ke gi zadovoli i dvete strani. Celovo ova go citirav bidejkji me zaintesira tvojata rechenica deka so nieden zbor ne si ja pofalil segashnata vlast. A celiot citat se sostoi od falbi. Anyway, 1. Velish deka opozicijata e bolna za vlast, shto ne go odbivam an blok (sigurno go ima i toa), no, i ne go prifakjam kako neshto stoprocentno tochno. Od druga strana pak, "zaboravash" da kazhesh deka istoto e i so pozicijata. Ili pak mislish deka bidejkji sega se tie na vlast, oni vekje zaboravile shto e toa glad, borba za taa ista vlast i deka kje ostanat tamu samo ako nekoj im reche? Ne. Mislam deka okolu borbata za vlast, ne mozheme a da ne recheme deka i pozicijata i opozicijata potpolno isto se odnesuvaat, t.e. ostavaat takov vpechatok. 2. Velish deka trite levi partii sekogash rabotat so konsenzus. Me interesira dali povtorno kje go kazhesh istoto, koga (ako) kje javat deka SDSM formirala ednopartiska vlada, kako shto beshe vchera najaveno na A1. :)) Izgleda deka onie shto ne se gladni za vlast, naednash se polakomija? :)) Spored NM, SDSM vekje ima 57 pratenici, a spored televiziite, vekje ima 61 pratenik, shto znachi i ne e nezamislivo tokmu toa da se sluchi - SDSM sam da formira vlada i da gi shutne LP i SP vo opozicija. Seto toa i ne e taka zaprepastuvachki, koga kje se znae faktot deka vo proshlite 3 godini, LP najmnogu zemashe pari i deka Stojan Andov praktichno ja finansirashe kampanjata na SZM (ne toj lichno, nego so partiski pari). Zarem mislite deka takva lamja kakva shto e SDSM bi dozvolila takvo neshto da se sluchuva i vo idnina? Prva prilika - SDSM kje go shutne LP, pa togash kje pravime muabet za konsenzusi pomegju trite levi partii. 3. Velish deka pozicijata saka da gi reshi problemite bez potresi. Mislam deka e moshe lesno da se predvidat problemite koi tek kje se stvorat so reshavenje na prethodnite problemi so odrzhuvanje na status-quo, otegnuvanje na problemot, nametnati privremeni reshenija i sl. Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 13:06:57 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Sistem Vlatko reche: > > No pokraj toa, makedonskite talenti treba da se > > inventivni, da prevzemaat inicijativa, da gi mobiliziraat lugeto i da > > stvaraat sami biznisi i rabotni mesta za sebesi i za drugite. > > Se slagam so tebe Zoja. Na toa se odnesuvase i del od mojata > diskusija. Megjutoa, kaj nas seuste vazi filozofijata "da si najdam > jas ladovina vo drzavna rabota". A, dodeka da ja najdat ladovinata, > visat na spisok kako nevraboteni i si go gubat dragocenoto vreme po > kafani. Nema vise zagarantirano rabotno mesto. Sekoj treba SAM da si > obezbedi egzistencija, a eden od nacinite e i sopstven biznis. Uste > eden problem e toa sto kaj nas cim se spomene biznis se misli na > bogatenje (pa duri i preku nokj), a ne kako na uste eden od nacinite > da se obezbedi pristoen prosecen zivot. Se slozhuvam. Nemoj da mislish deka jas lichno mislam deka vladata e losha bidejkji ne im obezbedila mesto pod sonceto. Ona shto jas go velam e deka Vladata treba da ti obezbedi uslovi vo koi ti mozhesh da go najdesh svoeto mesto pod sonceto. A za nihilizmot - seto toa e posledica od shkolskiot sistem, za koj i samiot ukazha deka e katastrofalen. Eve, lichen primer. Celo moe shkoluvanje se trudev da ukazhuvam na nedostatocite na shkolskiot sistem, nikogash ne odev "ladno" spored nametnatite pravila koi ja unisthuvaat zdravata logika na uchenicite i gi pretvoruvaat vo beznadezhni roboti koi samo chekaat neshto da im se kazhe i da napravat. Za ovoj sistem e krivo min. za obrazovanie. I seto toa ne bi bilo tolku strashno koga povekjeto profesori bi prevzemale del od rabotite vo svoi race i bi napravile soodvetni izmeni. No, za zhal, tokmu tie se onie koi revnosno go primenuvaat propadnatiot sistem. Primer: onie koi se obiduvaat da ukazhat na slabostite - najmnogu nastraduvaat i se okvalifikuvaat kako 'buntovnici bez prichina' itn. I kako posle seto toa da rechesh deka imash zdrava sredina za razvoj, koga de facto nemash? > > I da, eden > > nachin e da se pronajdat patishtata za dobivanje na obrazovanie vo dobri > > svetski univerziteti, kako shto vie ste storile. Da se nauchi kako se raboti > > na svetsko nivo i da se prenesat znaenjata. > > A ne da se misli kako da se izbega od tamu i nikogas povekje da ne se > vrati... Se osekjam prozvan (ne se lutam). Prashanjeto ne e dali smee ili ne smee da se razmisluva taka - prashanjeto e zoshto mladite razmisluvaat na toj nachin. Veruvaj, do pred 6 meseci nemav namera da "izbegam". Duri bev tolkav idealista (naivec ili kako sakash kazhi go) i ne sakav ni da odam vo USA da zavrsham IV godina i pokraj toa shto mi se nudeshe taa mozhnost. Veruvav deka chovek ako se izbori, deka mozhe da promeni barem del od sistemot. No, "otkriv" deka za se postoi nekoja granichna linija, posle koja sfakjash deka se borish so veternici i deka promeni vo ovaa sirota pusta zemja definitivno nema da nastapat ushte dooolgo vreme, pred se, bidejkji najgolemiot del od lugjeto koi se sposobni taa promena da ja napravat - voopshto ne sakaat da ja napravat, a shto e ushte polosho, onie na koi najmnogu im trebaat tie promeni, ili seushte ne sfatile deka tie promeni navistina im trebaat ili pak si teraat po ona staroto deka "navednata glava, sabja ne seche". Ne veruvam deka promeni mozhat da nastapat preku nokj. Fakt e deka ne mozhe toa odednash da se sluchi i vlasta da se sostavi iskluchivo od kvalitetni i kompetentni lugje, no, spored mene, moshne vozmozhno e da se sostavi vlast koja kje ima odreden sluh za promenite, so shto dobar del od kvalitetnite lugje na posreden ili neposreden nachin kje se vkluchat vo toj proces. Kako posledica od tie promeni, sledniot mandat kje se sostavi ushte pokvalitetna vlada i toj proces kje teche. Problemot e shto takov proces ne se predviduva od strana na aktuelnata vlast. > > Sakam da kazham , da , ne chini vo Makedonija, no se zavisi od vas/nas dali > > toa ke se promeni. Ne samo kritiki, tuku i konstruktivni predlozi i > > reshenija da se diskutiraat. > > Ne, nie cekame prvo da ni obezbedat idealni uslovi, pa posle da > pocneme da predlagame resenija/rabotime/sozdavame. Koga ednas ke > svatime deka NIE sme tie sto gi sozdavame uslovite. Greshish. Uslovite se sozdavaat koga kje go zavrshish svoeto obrazovanie, no, dodeka si vo obrazovniot sistem, DRUGI ti gi sozdavaat uslovite. Da, da, znam deka kje rechesh deka chovek mozhe da raboti na svoja raka - tokmu toa go pravam vekje 12 godini, no, dali e navistina polezno za opsthestvoto taka, sekoj na svoja raka da go usovrshuva svoeto obrazovanie ili pak toa usovrshuvanje da se vodi preku dirigentskata palka na samiot sistem? Vprochem, prashanje e kolku lugje kje gi prevzemat rabotite vo svoi race. Pogledni gi samo studentite i studentskite organizacii. Edinstveniot motiv i cel na najgolemiot del od studentite e kako-taka da se stigne do diploma, a NE im e cel da se zdobijat so nekakvo znaenje, so nekakov kvalitet koj podocna bi go primenile. Ova osobeno e karakteristichno za studentite od vnatreshnosta (50% od site studenti) koi ako treba bi bile i gazeni i tepani od strana na prof. i sistemot - samo za da stignat do parcheto hartija, koe praktichno nishto ne zhachi. > > Amerikancite, od druga strana, sakaat da zhiveat so mototo "I can > > do anything I set my mind to" and " > > Ona sto najmnogu mi smeta kaj nas e toa sto site razmisluvaat > negativno, nihilisticki. Ne moze da ti se sluci nesto ubavo ako non > stop ocekuvas da ti se sluci nesto loso. THINK POSITIVE !!! Nekoj > predhodno spomna za toa na makedon deka, kaj nas nikoj nikogo ne fali. > Ama za toa, za kritikuvanje, prvi sme. Ova ne cini, onoj e glup, > onega ne go biva, onoj e kriv sto mene mi e loso... Ova pocnuva uste > od osnovno skolo (ucitelkite gi vikaat roditelite samo ako imaat da > im kazat deka deteto im e loso), prodolzuva vo sredno, a kulminira na > fakultet (profesorot se trudi da vidi kolku NE znaes i sto NE si > naucil, a ne kolku znaes). Taka, od strav da ne bide kritikuvan > mladiot covek nisto ne ni prezema. > > Po zavrsuvanjeto na obrazovanieto covekot izleguva taka NEGATIVNO > "brainwashed" i nastroen, sto odbrambeniot mehanizam mu nalaga i toj > da kritikuva se i sekogo. I taka u krug... Zatoa THINK POSITIVE !!! > i ke vidite kako ke trgne na podobro. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Se slozhuvam so sevo ova. I nemoj da mislish deka ne mislam positive. Tokmu zatoa i baram promeni. > Za pocetok, Kire moze da ne informira i za toa kako stojat rabotite > na JAZZ festivalot, kako pomina MAKFEST, koj izdal nova kaseta, sto > se slucuva vo muzikata (pop - folk). Ne zastana valjda zemjata so > izborite... Ne si svesen kolku navistina zastana zemjava zaradi izborite. :)) Duri i grupite se vrtkaa natamu-navamu po mitinzi, konvencii itn, pa taka nastana nekoja polarizacija duri i kaj estradnite umetnici (Igor Dzhambazov bukvalno beshe vo ekstaza koga izvikuvashe "Za Sojuzot za Makedonija!"). Za Jazz-ot, za zhal, ne mozham mnogu da kazham, bidejkji ne najdov vreme da otidam na nieden koncert. Se spremav da odam na Chick Korea, no, koga ja vidov programata (Korea imashe solo piano koncert), se otkazhav, bidejkji, IMHO, Jazz ne e Jazz ako nemash maximalna ispolnetost na prostorot i toa so povekje ispolnuvachi i povekje instrumenti. Za MAKFEST ne me prashuvaj, takvi raboti ne sum pratel, niti kje pratam. Za onie shto se interesiraa za filmot "Before the rain". Denovive slushnav nekoj report deka filmot zapochnal da se prikazhuva niz Kanada, a MISLAM deka rekoa i niz Amerika. Vnimavajte na kino repertoarot vo svoite gradovi! :) Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 13:39:20 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: yane Subject: Kumanovski Burek so Jogur To: makedon@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Subject: Kumanovski Burek so Jogurt (humoreska) Po izlivite na bes i nemok na nekoi frustrirani osobi na MAKEDON po izborite vo MK, predlagam malce humor. I, eve go vo tekstot sto sledi. Se nadevam deka za burekot ne e kriva pozicijata. Yane.... ____________________________________________________________________ Edno osvezuvajne: Jogurt i burek Edemo ja i Stefka burek, i cudimo se. Dobar burek, nema ni mnogo voda u jogurt. Zasto? Sto e razlog za dobar kvalitet i zasto e dobar burek k't ni pekari ni direktor na mlekari ne se kandidirav za pratenici? Takoj mislejci zasto ga pogodile pekari burek i zasto opozicija gi utnala izbori, pocnamo jos po ed'n cetvrt s's meso. Objasnue mi ona s's mrsni ruke kako vu dale dvojku na izbiracko mesto zatoj sto gu nemalo u spisak a nemala ni uverenje za drzavjanstvo, a ja s's puni usta vikam "Takoj e! Trebaja e Frckovski da dojde licno kude tebe i da ti donese 100 grama kafe i uverenje za drzavjanstvo, posto ti celu godinu prodavas zevala i ne moga da si izvadis edno uverenje!" Zazbori se covek pa se zabravi. K't se osvestimo, iskoci deka smo izele po dva cetvrta i dve osminke, po stomak i usta na gragjanke sto gi nema u izbiracki spisak! Samo sto iskocimo od "Beli peciva" i pojdemo nakude pazar, pocna Stefka da ofka, da se sviva i da zapomaga, kako da vu e Pero Gosev od cicu brat! "Ovoj e falsifikat burek, ovoj e sabotaza i namestaljka, skida me zeludac i obrca mi se stomak!" Tam'n da gu pridrzu i da gu odvedu do prvu klupu, snemogna i ja! Muka mi, loso mi! Pocna da pljukam kako opozicija, ama nacionalna, i da trazu sodu bikarbonu u tasnu! Idemo dvete, tetravimo se, zanesamo se, neznaemo sto da pravimo. Ja kako VMRO u desno, ona kako Demokratska u centar, pa na desno! Da idemo natamo, da ne idemo, da stoimo, da senemo.. Nema sanse da stignemo do pazar, svesni smo, ama inaet ne ni dava da se vratimo s's prazni krosnje! Ne se trpi muka od stomak, ne mozemo natamo peski do pazar i nazad, ama ne se trpi majtap od Evku k't ce ne vidi kude se vracamo prazni od pazar: "sto e ovoj komsike, ostanase vi omiljeni partie bez glasovi, a vi gledam ostanale ste bez pazrl'k! Duplo prazno!" Svesni za poseldice, iznenadeni i zbunjeni od neocekuvan razvoj na dogagjaji, pocnamo da se vrtimo u krug da najdemo nekoe avto, polk drzejci se za stomak da se odvlecemo do doma, ama Stefka insistirase da napravimo na lice mesto miting i ed'n miran protest s's nemirno vikanje i parole: "Uaaa burek! Izlzavane da se pree(j)demo! Sve da se ponisti, da ni gi vrativ pare i mesto s's meso da si kupime burek s's sirenje, ili eventualno po dve mekice!" Kako se bese zapalila Stefka, ona bese spremna i da telefonira od prvu kafanu i da ga vika prestavnici KEBS, Savet za Evropu i sl. ama ja zastana pred njum kako Ljupce pred masu pred Sobranie i kaza: "Am'n nemoj, i mi ce se izblanirano! sto ako ne prasav koj ne teraja da edemo po ednu tepsiju burek? Sto ako kazev deka drzava i megjunarodna zaednica ne odgovarav za golem apetit i mal kapacitet na zeludnik na dve gladne za vlast, odnosno burek, partiski opredelene zene?" I dobro sto gu smiri! Ne se buta drzava i ne se praviv nemiri zatoj sto nekoga ne ga izglasale, a ne se ide ni protiv kumanovski burek i nadaleko cuen jogurt zatoj sto na nekoga mu se usladilo, pa zaboravija kolko i sto moze! Plus toj, ov'j narot e na kraj na izdrzljivost! Izdrza muski kampanju za prv krug, izdrza zenski izbori, s'k se trudi da izdrzi silno vikanje i plakanje na deca sto mislejale deka ce gi dadev cokoladu a dale gi lizavce. Dali s'k mi dve treba da ga dokusurimo? Sto e drzava bez vlas i sto e dorucak bez burek? Nisto! Doma k't stignamo, cutajce ulegnamo u portu i odma ispimo po edn "reglan". Ne rucamo, preskocimo gu i veceru, samo ne gu preskocimo emisiju u koju pozicija i opozicija se raspravljava zasto da idev i zasto da ne idev u drugi krug. Gledamo i cutamo. Samo u edn moment k't mu se obrna Ljupco na Frcka i k't mu kaza sve sto mu tekna, k't mu nabroi za sto sve e kriv, Stefka plesna s's ruke: "Mico, pa ov'j zabravi da mu kaze deka e kriv i za nas burek!? steta, b's ubavo i efektno ce si ga zavrsese govor!" Ja ne moga nisto da kazu, posto on k't zavrsi pojde mi nesto nagore. Zatoj odma se fati za kutiju lekovi i udri jos ed'n reglan, a kako pojacanje i ed'n apaurin. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 15:10:12 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Perica Babanovski Subject: Please Help This message is moving around the country rather quickly. I have not left the header addresses in order to keep the message as short as possible. > -------------------------- [Original Message] ------------------------- >Subject: Lost kids > >PLEASE PASS THIS ON AND CROSS POST TO ALL NEWSGROUPS NO MATTER HOW >INAPPROPRIATE... > >2 Children are missing due to a car-jacking in South Carolina. One boy is 3 1/2 >and his younger brother is 13 months (aprox). They were taken during a >car-jackin. > >The lic. plate number is GBK-167 (South Carolina) its a Burgundy 4 door Mazda >with a USC (univ, S, Carolina) bumper sticker plus a dent on the front bumper. > >Please report ANY INFORMATION TO 1-800-522-5681 OR YOUR LOCAL FBI OFFICE. If >anyone has an FBI e-mail address perhaps they would be kind enough to post it. > >I understand that this is NOT the proper newsgroup to post this, please accept >my apologies. But let's ALL lend a hand and help these kids get back to their >parents if we can. > >AGAIN PLEASE CROSS POST TO EVERY PART OF THE NET THAT YOU THINK WOULD HELP >SPREAD THE WORD. > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 02:25:33 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Muzika Me interesira kakva se muzika slushate i toa pokonkretno, koi pravci, koi grupi, omileni pesni itn. :) Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 17:16:20 +1100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Todd Mickov Subject: Macedonian Mountains - Crying OUR MOUNTAINS ARE CRYING FOR US I recently came across a very moving and profoundly meaningful and sad Macedonian song. The song I think was composed by Ljupco Trajkovski - - Fis, a distinguished Macedonian composer of contemporary folk music. This composition of almost unrivalled musical qualities was performed at a fairly new Macedonian Festival INTERFEST - Bitola, Macedonia in June 1991. The song was impeccably sung in duet by Rosana S.Todorovska and Naum Petreski. I thoroughly recommend you to have a listen to it. The song is about the plight of the Macedonian children refugees from Aegean Macedonia (Deca Begalci) during their exodus from the Greek Civil War. It is a very strong song, a song of utter longing, conveyed through in very powerful of lyrics and a fine melody. The following is a reproduction of the lyrics in Macedonian & English, I translated the song into English in a more liberal translation rather than a literal word-to-word translation. It may be further reproduced for fair use only. Todd Mickov *********************************************************** PLACHAT ZA NAS PLANINITE Deca bevme, komu zgreshivme, vinovni shto bevme bez vina, kolku teshko koj ne prokolna zhivotot po svetot ni mina. A plachat, plachat za nas planinite, senkite pod maslinite, a vo nas, gori vo nas i vekuva rana shto peche ne se lekuva. I niz svetov nam nasekade srcata ni gi otvorija, samo TAMU nema vrakjanje, portite ni gi zatvorija. A plachat, plachat za nas planinite, senkite pod maslinite, a vo nas, gori vo nas i vekuva rana shto peche ne se lekuva Ej kolku tezhat TAMU planinite, teshki se i gorchinite, na site kleta ni e sudbinata isto ne boli dalechinata. KAJ I DA SME NE GO ZABORAVIVME, DETSTVOTO SHTO TAMU GO OSTAVIVME. I \ I / \I/ --------- * --------- / I \ / I \ I THE MOUNTAINS ARE CRYING FOR US We were children, whom did we do any wrong, guilty of bearing no guilt, it's so hard, whoever cursed us, to spend our lives throughout the world. But they're crying, the mountains are crying for us and the shades in the olive trees, and inside of us, a neverending burning wound inside of us, that cannot heal. And throughout the world they opened their hearts to us, but still there is one PLACE of no return, they closed our gates to us. But they're crying, the mountains are crying for us and the shades in the olive trees, and inside of us, a neverending burning wound inside of us that, cannot heal. Oh how much the mountains weigh over THERE, even more so our bitterness, damned is the fate that befell us and the painful distance that aches from afar. WHEREVER WE ARE, WE HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN THE CHILDHOOD WE LEFT OVER THERE. ***************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 05:48:23 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Si odat, si odat... RE: Ama za toa, za kritikuvanje, prvi sme. Ova ne cini, onoj e glup, onega ne go biva, onoj e kriv sto mene mi e loso... Ova pocnuva uste od osnovno skolo (ucitelkite gi vikaat roditelite samo ako imaat da im kazat deka deteto im e loso), prodolzuva vo sredno, a kulminira na fakultet (profesorot se trudi da vidi kolku NE znaes i sto NE si naucil, a ne kolku znaes). Taka, od strav da ne bide kritikuvan mladiot covek nisto ne ni prezema. REPLY: Da, ispitite bea poveke kako stapici, "a minefield test." Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 05:50:21 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Muzika Bash bev na Rolling Stones concert vo Oakland, California. Znam deka tie ne se nova grupa, no muzikata im e "vechna," a i imaat dobri novi albumi. Se nadevam deka jas ke sum tolku energichna kako Mick Jagger vo 50-tite godini; chovekot trchashe natamu navamu kako da e 18 godishen. Scenata i specijalnite efekti im bea dosta interesni, no edinstveno "usherite" (kontrola na bileti i chuvari na red) bea mnogu dosadni i stalno ne gnjavea samo vo sedishte da sedime (koncertot beshe vo stadion). Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 05:53:40 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Sistem RE: Ona shto jas go velam e deka Vladata treba da ti obezbedi uslovi vo koi ti mozhesh da go najdesh svoeto mesto pod sonceto. REPLY: Tochno Kire. Nie pak morame da zahtevame od vladata toa da go stori i da i pomogneme na vladata pri obezbeduvanjeto na tie uslovi, t.e. da uchestvuvame zaedichki pri vospostavuvanjeto na tie uslovi. Morame da si pogledneme dlaboko vo sebesi zatoa shto uslovi ne se stvaraat samo od strana na vladata, tuku celoto drushtvo treba da uchestvuva i da si ja prilagodi "kulturata" kon odredenite celi. Sekako, upravata e taa shto treba da povede, no, pak, upravata e del od nas/ nash izraz, i nie sme del od upravata. Nekoj bi rekle, vladata/upravata e nashatat "reflekcija" vo ogledaloto. Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 12:46:15 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: Muzika In-Reply-To: <9411030149.AA04088@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija" at Nov 3, 94 02:25:33 am > > Me interesira kakva se muzika slushate i toa pokonkretno, > koi pravci, koi grupi, omileni pesni itn. :) > > Pozdrav, > KiRe ViDiMCHe > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - > = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = > = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = > - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Skoro seshto, vsushnost anything but pop !! Sisters of Mercy, Cure, Ex-Nirvana, Soundgarden, Dead can dance, RHCP, a posebno sakam filmska muzika ( nezavisno od toa dali muzikata e score, ili povekje posebni pesni ), Vangelis, Jean-Michelle Jarre, Front 242 a mozham da kazham deka mi se dopagja i The Prodigy. Greetings Alex ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 10:01:15 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Andrej Kocev Subject: Re: muzika Kire, aaaaaah... muzika, great topic. I listen to a variety of music, but I favor classical. I like everything by Chopin. I also love to listen to (and play) classical guitar. Are there any classical guitarists among you MAKEDONERS? BTW, I'm going to see a classical guitar concert here in Boston this Saturday. The guitarist will be performing some Balkan pieces written by Dusan Bogdanovic'. They are Yugoslav folk tunes (including Makedonso Kolo) arranged for solo guitar. Should be fun. -andrej ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 16:34:45 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Muzika Zoya reche: > Bash bev na Rolling Stones concert vo Oakland, California. Znam deka tie ne > se nova grupa, no muzikata im e "vechna," a i imaat dobri novi albumi. Se > nadevam deka jas ke sum tolku energichna kako Mick Jagger vo 50-tite godini; > chovekot trchashe natamu navamu kako da e 18 godishen. Scenata i > specijalnite efekti im bea dosta interesni, no edinstveno "usherite" > (kontrola na bileti i chuvari na red) bea mnogu dosadni i stalno ne gnjavea > samo vo sedishte da sedime (koncertot beshe vo stadion). Rolling Stones se ok, ama odsekogash, nekako mi izgledale kako bleda kopija na The Beatles. T.e. ne kako kopija, tuku kako paralelna grupa, koja sakala da im parira so neshto pooshtra muzika (ala heavymetal-ot pred nekolku godini). Velish deka e 'vechna'. Hmmm.. mozhebi, no, ne mozheme a da ne priznaeme deka vo minatoto, sepak, imaa podobri pesni. Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 16:35:24 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Muzika Alex reche: > Skoro seshto, vsushnost anything but pop !! > > Sisters of Mercy, Cure, Ex-Nirvana, Soundgarden, Dead can dance, RHCP, a > posebno sakam filmska muzika ( nezavisno od toa dali muzikata e score, ili > povekje posebni pesni ), Vangelis, Jean-Michelle Jarre, Front 242 a mozham > da kazham deka mi se dopagja i The Prodigy. Za nekoi raboti odlichno se soglasuvame. :) 1. Sisters of Mercy - ok, ama premnogu mrachno 2. The Cure - Great!!! Gi *obozhavam*! Ako nekoj e zainteresiran, gi imam SKORO SITE (99%) tekstovi od pesnite koi gi imaat objaveno do sega (vkluchuvajkji gi i single-ovite), i toa, razbira se, vo elektronska forma. :) Najdobri albumi: - Three Imaginary Boys (aka Boys don't cry) - Seventeen seconds - Disintegration - Wish 3. (Ex-)Nirvana - super. Najdobri albumi: - Bleach - Nevermind 4. Soundgarden - ne 5. DCD - odlichno 6. RHCP - ne 7. Vangelish, Jean-Michel (MicheLLe e zhenskata verzija :)) Jare, Mike Oldfield, Enigma.. - great 8. Front 242 - ne 9. The Prodigy - ok Nego, shto velite za Dinosaur Jr., Pixies, The Smiths, U2, Depeche Mode, Simple Minds, Queen, The Beatles, The Doors, Joy Division, ABBA? Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 16:21:46 -0800 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: D Alexander Bailey Subject: Re: Muzika In-Reply-To: <199411030159.RAA10810@mail2.netcom.com> My musical tastes (as far as collecting goes) tend to be more obscure. At the moment I've got two favorite record labels: 1. "Sub Rosa" - from Belgium. They specialize in difficult listening/ un-classical music. This is music for listening to; most of it would drive you nuts if you left it on in the background will entertaining company. Favorites of mine are: a. Anything by Charles Hayward (he was in "This Heat" and "Camberwell Now" during the 70Us and 80Us) and especially his tracks on the "Chaos in Expansion" compilation. b. Blindman Kwartet: "Poortenbos" c. Thierry De Mey: "Undo" d. Lilith: "Stone" (This disc gives the term "rock music" new meaning - all of the sounds used were originally produced using stones, striking, scraping, grinding etc. A very intense record). 2. Knitting Factory Works of NYC. This label puts out young (and sometimes avant-garde) jazz from the downtown New York scene. I just beginning to discover this label, but I can highly recommend anything by the Jazz Passengers. Aside from the Sub Rosa and Knitting Factory labels, other current favorites of mine are: "Pram" on the English label "Too Pure". A very spaced out band of which I can't get enough! and "Eggstone" on the Swedish label "Snap". Eggstone make rather jazzed up bubblegum pop. Very camp. Their first LP "In San Diego" is (I'm sorry to say) better than their 2nd "Somersault" (Somersault being much closer to ordinary rock). I'm not at all the Cure fan today that I was in '84, but for those who care, I'll mention that the album which holds up best for me now is "Seventeen Seconds" (although this was not what I thought in '84). If you don't know about it already, the LP which R. Smith did with Steven Severin (of the Banshees) under the name "the Glove" was quite good (or so I thought at the time - it's been at least five years since I last listened to it). For the Joy Division fans, I ask: Have you ever heard Section 25? They were another Factory band. I always found them much more interesting than J.D. The three proper LPs are all very good. "Always Now" is the closest to JD and was produced by Martin Hannett. "The Key of Dreams" (psychedelic) is still in my top ten of all time. And "From the Hip" (disco produced by one of the members of New Order) still sounded nice when I played it a few weeks ago despite being 10 years old. To the question: who has the best lyrics? Momus. With out a doubt. But I only know one other person who agrees with me. And lastly: I'm still looking for "Lola V Sstajn".... Xander ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 12:21:33 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Ljupco Todorovski Subject: PF and PT In-Reply-To: <9411040149.AA20627@asterix.ijs.si> from "owner-makedon@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" at Nov 4, 94 02:48:00 am Pismoto na Vlatko vcera (Think positive :-) me natera da prestanam da citam email, pa da otidam malku okulu. Zalutav na prvata vecer na Film Art Fest (sekoja godina vo noemvri vo Ljubljana). Festivalot e otvoren so Pulp Fiction (Sund, vo prevod) na Tarantino. Filmot e miks na tri cetiri evtini krimi prikazni, koi do krajot na filmot se povrzuvaat vo neverojatna celina. Nakratko - odlicen sund! Gledam Amerika bas se fura na positive thinking. Razbira se, na 13. vo ramkite na FAF ke bide slovenecka premiera na "Pred dozdot". Dodeka cekav za karti, primetiv deka skoro site kupuvaat karti za filmot (+ za Kieslovski - grozno!). Kako i ne bi, koga vo katalogot e predstaven kako "fascinanten portret na moderna Evropa ...". Ako e tolku fascinanten, kolku i portretite od Kieslovski (Dvojniot zivot na Veronika, Plava, etc.) ... Ama ne, nema da razmisluvam negativno. Ne cinelo, velat! A za pri kraj na festivalot - poslastica, dokumentarec za Noam Chomsky (lingvist, filozof i americki disident) - "Proizveduvanje na soglasnost", vo koj samiot zboruva za "manipulacii so smernicite na prenesuvanjeto na informaciite vo sredstvata za javno informiranje". Vtoriot del od filmot (podnaslov "Vospostavuvanje na nesoglasnost"), zboruva za "intelektualna samoodbrana od mediumite". Za Vlatko i Zoran - Prava Stvar. BTW, Prava Stvar e prevod koristen na podracjeto na exYU za filmot True Romance na Tarantino/scenarist, prviot negov film sto imav moznost da go vidam. Reservoir dogs, negoviot debi, ne sum go gledal, a bi sakal. Mislam deka nekoj na MAKEDON (Irena?, Xander?) go spomna. Dali ste go gledale (me zanima tematskata povrzanost so Pulp Fiction, t.e. dali e nasilje/droga/Amerika varijanta zapakirana vo otkacen scenarij)? Ljupco. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 13:28:06 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Unix Ne zamerajte ako ova vekje prethodno se ima pojaveno na Makedon. :) In order for UNIX(tm) to survive into the nineties, it must get rid of its intimidating commands and outmoded jargon, and become compatible with the existing standards of our day. To this end, our technicians have come up with a new version of UNIX, System VI, for use by the PC - that is, the "Politically Correct." Politically Correct UNIX System VI Release notes UTILITIES: "man" pages are now called "person" pages. Similarly, "hangman" is now the "person_executed_by_an_oppressive_regime." To avoid casting aspersions on our feline friends, the "cat" command is now merely "domestic_quadruped." To date, there has only been a UNIX command for "yes" - reflecting the male belief that women always mean yes, even when they say no. To address this imbalance, System VI adds a "no" command, along with a "-fSorceC" option which will crash the entire system if the "no" is ignored. The bias of the "mail" command is obvious, and it has been replaced by the more neutral "gendre" command. The "touch" command has been removed from the standard distribution due to its inappropriate use by high-level managers. "compress" has been replaced by the lightweight "feather" command. Thus, old information (such as that from Dead White European Males) should be archived via "tar" and "feather". The "more" command reflects the materialistic philosophy of the Reagan era. System VI uses the environmentally preferable "less" command. The biodegradable "KleeNeX" displaces the environmentally unfriendly "LaTeX". SHELL COMMANDS: To avoid unpleasant, medieval connotations, the "kill" command has been renamed "euthanise." The "nice" command was historically used by privileged users to give themselves priority over unprivileged ones, by telling them to be "nice". In System VI, the "sue" command is used by unprivileged users to get for themselves the rights enjoyed by privileged ones. "history" has been completely rewritten, and is now called "herstory." "quota" can now specify minimum as well as maximum usage, and will be strictly enforced. The "abort()" function is now called "choice()." TERMINOLOGY: >From now on, "rich text" will be more accurately referred to as "exploitive capitalist text". The term "daemons" is a Judeo-Christian pejorative. Such processes will now be known as "spiritual guides." There will no longer be a invidious distinction between "dumb" and "smart" terminals. All terminals are equally valuable. Traditionally, "normal video" (as opposed to "reverse video") was white on black. This implicitly condoned European colonialism, particularly with respect to people of African descent. UNIX System VI now uses "regressive video" to refer to white on black, while "progressive video" can be any color at all over a white background. For far too long, power has been concentrated in the hands of "root" and his "wheel" oligarchy. We have instituted a dictatorship of the users. All system administration functions will be handled by the People's Committee for Democratically Organizing the System (PC-DOS). No longer will it be permissible for files and processes to be "owned" by users. All files and processes will own themselves, and decided how (or whether) to respond to requests from users. The X Window System will henceforth be known as the NC-17 Window System. And finally, UNIX itself will be renamed "PC" - for Procreatively Challenged. ----- Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 00:02:47 +1100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Sacha Shopov Subject: Comments Makedonci, I'm intersted in what peoples comments are regarding the returning of the present Macedonian government and its consequences in regard with solving the dispute with Greece over our name. We have all read the MILS/MIC reports already (i assume) and to me they don't really sound promising. sachz -- Sacha A. Shopov Sydney, Australia shopo-sa@eelab.su.oz.au | sshopov@extro.ucc.su.oz.au == All I only want is to Rule the World == ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 00:25:34 +1100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Sacha Shopov Subject: SA Govt Action (fwd) I thought it was appropriate to forward this here. Forwarded message: > From: George Phillipov > Subject: SA Govt Action > > Dear Sacha: > > Thought you might be interested in the correspondence below, received by all > Macedonian groups in SA. george, feel free to post direct to MAKEDON@ubvm.. address > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > OMEA 66/93 > 24 October 1994 > > Dr George Phillipou > Chairperson > Macedonian Patriotic Organization 'Todor Alexandroff' Australia Inc > PO Box 270 > FINDON SA 5023 > > > Dear Dr Phillipou > > On the 14 March 1994 Senator the Hon Gareth Evans QC, Minister for Foreign > Affairs, issued a ministerial statement to the effect that, for recording > purposes, people from the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia should be > referred to as Slav-Macedonian. > > The South Australian Government has also instructed that all Government > departments and agencies are to use the term "Slav Macedonian" when referring > to people from the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. All State > Government departments and agencies are required to implement this > instruction, including the Office of Multicultural and Ethnic Affairs. > > This Office is currently updating the *Directory of Multicultural and Ethnic > Community Resources*. In complying with the State Government's instruction > your organisation would now appear under "Slav Macedonian". If you would > like your entry to be included in the 1995 Directory, please return the > attached entry to Mrs Pauline Tuft, Infosearch Operator, Office of > Multicultural and Ethnic Affairs, 24 Flinders Street, Adelaide 5000, with any > admendments, by 9 November 1994. > > Yours sincerely > > > > Paolo Nocella > CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER > OFFICE OF MULTICULTURAL AND ETHNIC AFFAIRS > > H:/GROUPS/COM/DIR.WW2 This is what is happening in South Australia. I say no-compromise by Gligorov. Look at the results. -- Sacha A. Shopov Sydney, Australia shopo-sa@eelab.su.oz.au | sshopov@extro.ucc.su.oz.au == All I only want is to Rule the World == ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 01:45:56 -0600 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: "Ognen G. Zografski" Subject: Re: Muzika >And lastly: I'm still looking for "Lola V Sstajn"... > >Xander Xander, I've got the Lola V. Stain CD "Mansarda", which actually consists of two works, "Mansarda", and their debut album "Ikona". If you're interested, perhaps we can arrange for some violations of the copyright laws ;) (Please e-mail messages on this subject directly to me, I don't think the people on MAKEDON are quite that interested in this transaction of ours). I also have cassette of their early recordings which I got from Zlatko Origjanski, the leader & main creative force of the band. Unfortunately, I left that cassette in Skopje. You know, last minute packing stress & everything... :) I really regret that I didn't get the Anastasia album "Na rjekah vavilonskih" at the time it was available. Now it's probably a collector's item. Anastasia is the band that did the music for "Before the Rain", and "Na rjekah Vavilonskih" is heavily influenced by Byzantine church music (chanting), which really takes you places if you listen to it intensely... Other than that, right now I'm exploring "The Essential Claus Schultze 1974-1993" (highly recommended). Schultze is one of the earliest & most creative tinkerers with electronic/ambient music, and he actually manages to maintain originality & creativeness with every new album, unlike the gang that started out pretty much like him but got lost somewhere in the early 80-ties (Vangelis, J.M.-Jarre, Tangerine Dream, Mike Oldfield). A rare exception from this "rule" is Mike Oldfield's 1992 (if I'm not mistaking) album "Amarok", which is basically a "revival" of the style Oldfield fans got to like in the first place. I also like some of the minimalist stuff (Steve Reich, Philip Glass, some Meredith Monk, some Laurie Anderson...) and Stephan Micus, an ambient jazz musician recording for the ECM label. (He had a concert in Skopje this summer!) Regards, Ogi Mississippi State University ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 14:39:01 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Comments > Makedonci, > > I'm intersted in what peoples comments are regarding the returning > of the present Macedonian government and its consequences in regard > with solving the dispute with Greece over our name. We have all > read the MILS/MIC reports already (i assume) and to me they don't > really sound promising. Maybe it's just talking, but here, in Skopje, lots of people think that now Macedonian government will accept a prefix to our original (and only) name - Macedonia. The only prefix that is being mentioned is 'North'. So, here we go - Northmacedonians. Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 18:06:54 GMT Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: M Petkovski Subject: I can't get no... Kire izjavi: "Roling Stones se bleda kopija na The Beatles" Kire, ti prostuvam sto ni go predlozi Cile za pretsedatel ama ova nikogas nema da ti go zaboravam. MICK-hail P.S. Olesnitelna okolnost ti e sto verojatno si bil bebe koga se stanuvase Stones-freak, ama i toa ne ti e celosno opravduvanje - si mozel da se konsultiras so nekoj od postarite pred da pisuvas za niv. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 14:34:41 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Boris Soposki Subject: Re: I can't get no... Mihail pisuva: >Kire izjavi: > "Roling Stones se bleda kopija na The Beatles" >Kire, ti prostuvam sto ni go predlozi Cile za pretsedatel ama ova >nikogas nema da ti go zaboravam. >MICK-hail >P.S. Olesnitelna okolnost ti e sto verojatno si bil bebe koga >se stanuvase Stones-freak, ama i toa ne ti e celosno opravduvanje - >si mozel da se konsultiras so nekoj od postarite pred da >pisuvas za niv. Mihail, I jas sum bil bebe :-) koga se stanuvalo Stones freak ama sekogas koga ce ja slusnam 'Paint it black' mornici me lazat. Faktot deka opstanale sive ovie godini kazuva mnogu. A na 'Voodoo Lounge' imase mnogu mladi ludje moja vozrast. Rolling Stones rule. Boris bvs4997@rit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 22:13:12 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Rolling Stones Mihail reche: > Kire izjavi: > "Roling Stones se bleda kopija na The Beatles" > > Kire, ti prostuvam sto ni go predlozi Cile za pretsedatel ama ova > nikogas nema da ti go zaboravam. Eh, ne znam dali zaboraviv da repliciram na ovaa vekje iskazhana 'optuzhba' :), ama Cile go izbrav megju iminjata koi se spomenuvaa kako potencijalni kandidati za pretsedatel (Kiro Gligorov, Ljubisha Georgievski, Stojan Andon, Cile). > P.S. Olesnitelna okolnost ti e sto verojatno si bil bebe koga > se stanuvase Stones-freak, ama i toa ne ti e celosno opravduvanje - > si mozel da se konsultiras so nekoj od postarite pred da > pisuvas za niv. :) C'mon, zarem treba da se konsulitiram so nekogo za mojot vkus? Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 15:48:27 +1100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Sacha Shopov Subject: Research Projects? Zdravo Makedonci, I'm following up a msg posted by Liljana Stevceva under Jovica Stefcev's email (jovica@rsc3.anu.edu.au) regading exchange of information and experiences with other Macedonians in their respective research fields. Liljana mentioned medica research.. well, I am not in that field but I want to get the ball rolling nonetheless. I think half of the people on our MAKEDON list are cs-types (I include ee- etc in this as well), so I'll quote the abstract on the work I have just completed for the year which completes the second of my double degree.. the latter being in elec-eng. Abstract: This thesis examines the design of a real-time speech encryption system for operation on common Personal Computing equipment. An Audio signal is compressed to a level suitable for our limited bandwidth operation using Differential Pulse Code Modulation, while for secure scrambling the fast Blowfish Encryption Algorithm is used. The end product is a secure voice communication channel operating through the vulnerable and presumed insecure public telephone network, allowing two parties to converse in a manner not too different from using their normal telephones, with the added assurance of knowing their confidential mattes are kept secure. =-= I am intersted in what other research topics our fellow Macedonians in any field (not just computer science) are working on in their respective research departments. The above was only an undergaduate thesis in an electrical engineering degree, so shouldn't be too technical for *some* :-) I have created a postscript version of my thesis paper and have it available on the network for email upon request (its pointless posting direct to the group). I would in return like people to do likewise, create a postscript (the standard on laser printers these days) of work they have done, or are currently doing. And/or post an abstract on what they're doing. We could eventually build this into a library or some sort. Regarding my actual project, since it has a wide application on simple hardware (pc, sbp, modem ..) I have also source and binaries for the PC available which complete the project. Please, I know many of us are doing some research out there, PhD etc.. Technically matters like how to convert to postscript or how to upload to the net should directed to your local admins. We can't really help from this side. Since I expect mostly comp-sci response, you people should already know how to do this. By the way, Jovica & Liljana, I think we met once when you came up to Sydney? Do you remember.. pozdrav, sachz ps. on a final note, people wishing to unsubscribe from the list should do it the same way they subscribed. aka, email listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu with text "unsub makedon" instead of "sub makedon your name". This is the reason the MAKEDON admin prefer not to susbcribe people manually since they really should learn how to use the automatic listserv commands. cheers.. -- Sacha A. Shopov Sydney, Australia shopo-sa@eelab.su.oz.au | sshopov@extro.ucc.su.oz.au == All I only want is to Rule the World == ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 13:20:08 GMT+3 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zhidas Daskalovski I would also, like to ask for comments on the current political situation in Macedonia. People from RM, whereever you are, write! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 20:55:36 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Boris Soposki Subject: DON'T PANIC Ford Prefect is here Hi everybody! Here is something for the lovers of Douglas Adams and the Hitchiker's guide to the galaxy. Erase the mail header and this text and then use Type for vax or dos cat for unix Boris [1m [5m [31m _ _ _ _ _ __| | ___ _ __ ( ) |_ _ __ __ _ _ __ (_) ___| | / _` |/ _ \| '_ \ /| __| | '_ \ / _` | '_ \| |/ __| | | (_| | (_) | | | | | |_ [0m [32m ..... [1m [5m [31m | |_) | (_| | | | | | (__|_| \__,_|\___/|_| |_| \__| [0m [32m .: :!!!!!!@SH@$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$> #$c <$ !!!!XT!!ZW$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$"*$bu...."$e 9$uuem!t [37m"` [0m [32mHUM$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ [37m#" [0m [32m .$E$$$$$$#" ~"~~```!!r [37m## [0m [32mR$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ [37m##" [0m [32m @$ `!R [37m "## [0m [32m$$$$$$$$$$RB [37m##" [0m [32m :$~ '4?. [37m "#########" [0m [32m zP" `!+. [31m --x +. [32m z$# `4%+. [31m `"x `?Mr [32m :d*" `~!!::: [31m `!:`MMX [32m~` ```` [31m .XkXMMx '!MMMMM8r `"***"" [37m [0m ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 16:29:18 GMT+3 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zhidas Daskalovski Subject: Re: Comments One Comment The people who won the 94 elections(Sojuz za Makedonija) in RM are not really interested about our country. Their actions in the last four years, right before, during, and after the 94 October elections, show what is what they actually want to achieve-power to rule Republic of Macedonia and get personal benefits from it. Looking the political situation in RM from that angle, it is easy to understand why the so-called (Sojuz za Makedonija) can not work on a promotion of a Macedonian national state, as a European, liberal-democratic country. The people in power,(SZM) through the privatization laws suited for the directors to buy the state firms with extremely law prizes, the black markets, the breaking of the UN sanctions imposed on Yugoslavia, are "stealing" from their own people. SZM, in order to manipulate with the citizens of RM, controls and uses in its advantage, the state media, the judiciary branch and especially the Ministry of Internal Affairs. That the will to rule(make profits and "steal") is the only objective for SZM become obvious(not even mentioning the cases of breaking the Constitution with the laws for selling the state apartments to the individuals, with the planned buildings in Gjorce Petrov, for the refuges from Bosnia, or the inscription of the driving licence plates in the Latin alphabeth...) when, after the fall of Mr.Kljusev cabinet, they made a coalition government with the Albanian ethnic parties PDP and NDP.(ones whose members anounce Ilirida, talk about the Albanians as constituent people in RM and their infringed rights by the Macedonians, plan para-military formation and don't vote in favour of the new Macedonian Constitution, Refferendum, and boycot the 1991 census...) Today, of course, since it has absolutely majority in the RM Parliament SZM doesn't really care much about the Albanian parties. The political and diplomatic humiliation of RM in the international relations, as well as the Albanization of the western parts of RM, are another examples of the selfish policies of the people in SZM. For them the things like changing the name of RM, its Constitution and flag are negotionable( but of course remember Gligorov proposal RM-Skopje, Gligorov statement that FYRM would be a temporary name for two months and only in UN use), the Macedonian minorities in Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia or Albania doesn't exit, the illegal residence in RM,of about 130,000 people(mostly Albanians) is normal, and the fact that RM in the world eyes is another example of ethnicaly and nationaly diversed,(census in six languages?!?) without history country, almost like Bosnia, is not worth paying attention to. to be continued ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 17:20:03 GMT+3 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zhidas Daskalovski How can I find out who are the unsealed subscribers on the Makedon list? p.s. excuse my ignorance ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 17:33:27 GMT+3 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zhidas Daskalovski Please explain me how i can find out who are the unconsealed subscribers. p.s. excuse my ignorance ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 16:02:49 -0600 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: "Ognen G. Zografski" Subject: Interesting... I thought I'd share an interesting piece of news with you... Yesterday (Sat) or the day before, CNN had a story about a dispute between the US Olympic Committe and the owners of Greek restaurants/clubs that bear the name "Olympic" (after Mt. Olympus, not anything to do with the games), like for example "The Olympic Restaurant" or something like that... The USOC claims that they have the exclusive right to regulate the use of the adjective "Olympic" in any sort of inscriptions that are de facto trademarks, and therefore the owners of those businesses should either change the names, or seek license/endorsement from the USOC. Several of those business owners have complied and removed the signs and logos containig the word "Olympic", and the rest of them are trying to battle this decision in court. So far, the courts have been on the side of the USOC, and the CNN story had some panicky Greeks & their lawyers bitching about the injustice of this decision. The change of names/logos, signs, business cards, phone book listings etc would cost each business owner about $100 000, according to the CNN reporter, so they are understandably freaked out. I don't need to point out to you the parallel that could be drawn between this case & the MK-GR name dispute, but at least SOME Greeks got a taste of what the Greece's absurd pressure over the name feels like... Usually I don't indulge in this sort of petty sadism, but this piece of news kinda put a smile on my face... :) Pozdrav, Ogi Mississippi State University ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 14:12:39 -0800 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Ivan Weiss Subject: Re: Interesting... In-Reply-To: <199411062206.AA14338@seatimes.com> On Sun, 6 Nov 1994, Ognen G. Zografski wrote: > I thought I'd share an interesting piece of news with you... > Yesterday (Sat) or the day before, CNN had a story about a > dispute between the US Olympic Committe and the owners of > Greek restaurants/clubs that bear the name "Olympic" (after > Mt. Olympus, not anything to do with the games), like for > example "The Olympic Restaurant" or something like that... > The USOC claims that they have the exclusive right to regulate > the use of the adjective "Olympic" in any sort of inscriptions > that are de facto trademarks, and therefore the owners of those > businesses should either change the names, or seek > license/endorsement from the USOC. Several of those business > owners have complied and removed the signs and logos containig > the word "Olympic", and the rest of them are trying to battle > this decision in court. So far, the courts have been on the > side of the USOC, and the CNN story had some panicky Greeks & > their lawyers bitching about the injustice of this decision. The > change of names/logos, signs, business cards, phone book listings > etc would cost each business owner about $100 000, according to > the CNN reporter, so they are understandably freaked out. > I don't need to point out to you the parallel that could be > drawn between this case & the MK-GR name dispute, but at least > SOME Greeks got a taste of what the Greece's absurd pressure > over the name feels like... > Usually I don't indulge in this sort of petty sadism, but this > piece of news kinda put a smile on my face... :) > > > Pozdrav, > > Ogi > Mississippi State University > This story moved on the Associated Press and Reuters wire services, too. I jumped on it immediately and informed our city desk. Here in the Seattle WA area in the USA we have the Olympic Mountains and the Olympic Peninsula and skedillions of businesses with the name Olympic, not all by any means owned by Greek people. Ogi's point is well taken, of course, but the Olympic Committee's arrogance and idiocy goes far beyond the points he makes. I have been off for a couple of days and don't know if our newspaper did anything with this, but if anyone is interested I will post a paraphrase of the story if we ran one. Stay tuned. Ivan Weiss Seattle Times iwei-new@seatimes.com Standard disclaimer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 20:01:47 +1100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Todd Mickov Subject: Re: Muzika M U Z I K A !!! Good Topic! (I'll answer in English, since everyone here speaks the lang.) M U Z I K A !!! Good Topic ! Well, I personally could never devote myself to a single musical orientation, because I'm really interested in every musical style or genre there is. In my case, it all really depends on the mood I'm in, but generally most of the time it's POP/ROCK. For me there's ONE artist who's always been on the cutting edge of POP, an artist who has produced some great songs - MADONNA. Over the years, Madonna has successfully blended numerous influences into her music and raised many issues and quite a bit of eyebrows too. :) Some ppl are a bit wary of POP music in particularly the Stock/Aitker/Waterman type of packaged POP music, but Madonna's different. I don't know if it's the whole product, her daring nature or my fascination with the artist's attitude, but Madonna actually stands for something in the POP industry. Just get a hold of her latest single SECRET, a superb song, especially the video clip. The song is from her latest album "Bedtime Stories", an interesting blend of R&B, Hiphop ... Incorporating a new musical approach with a song written by Bjork, called BEDTIME STORY. Some other great tracks too. Check it out ! It's almost one year, since 26/Nov/1993, when I saw Madonna's GIRLIE SHOW TOUR at the Melbourne Cricket Ground. It was an amazing show, I hope some of you saw it, I actually had a front row golden circle seat, next to the catwalk and you might not know this but I'm 194cm tall (6.4ft) so Madonna actually looked and smiled at me *several* times, how could she miss me ? :) So, that was really fantastic. Furthermore, I really like U2, an amazing musical career, wouldn't you agree ? Have a listen to this smashing song "Love Is Blindness" from the ACHTUNG BABY album, also LEMON and of course the earlier stuff. I saw their ZOO TV (Zooropa) Tour Concert in Melbourne, it was truly awesome. I also like INXS... here in Australia we have some really good artists and bands that the rest of the world rarely gets to see. For instance, a great aussie rocker DIESEL, who makes top music (Tip Of My Tongue, Man Alive, Never Miss You Water, Masterplan, All Come Together..) all great songs. I listen to some GRUNGE/ALTER, but I'm very selective, because I don't embrace the whole style wholeheartedly. Sorry Macos from Seattle :) I like (In Utero)-Nirvana, and some stuff from Soundgarden, especially BLACK HOLE SUN -great song, unreal video. Then SOUL ASYLUM, Counting Crows ... I listen to some TECHNO/DANCE, but it gets boring after a while. The Italian mixers are good at it Capella, Anticapella, as well as The Prodigy. ONE music style that I really like is the southern American New Orleans style of jazz, blues and black soul. Infact New Orleans and Louisiana are on the top of my list of places to visit in the USA. I don't know, it's the whole feel to the music, the mardi gras that I find so appealing. I like the music of HARRY CONNICK JR. One can go on and on, like me, but I must say I love every song of Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett too, and some American Country (John Denver definitely, and Willie Nellson and Bonnie Wait or something like that) Love classical too: mainly Strauss, Bach, Mozart, Smetana.. Macedonian Folk: omileni mi se site STAROGRADSKI pesni, i nekoi novokomponirani. Zabavni Makedonski: Leb i Sol, Memorija. Kiril, napisi za ovie Lola V. Stein grupa od Skopje, MTV gi falea nesto. Bas me interesiraat. Drugar mi pisuva vo Skopje imalo eden koncert na ALT. grupi od cel Balkan, a posle imalo izvestaj na MTV za toj happening. IF YOU'VE MADE IT TO THE END OF THIS POSTING (I doubt it), YOU CAN SEE THAT I REALLY LISTEN TO ALMOST ANYTHING. Todd Mickov La Trobe University Melbourne, Victoria AUSTRALIA _______ ____ I I I _____ ==================================== I / \ I I I I ... until you shared your I I I I I I I_____ SECRET with me ... I I I I I I I I \____/ I__I__I I_____ (Bedtime Stories - MADONNA) ==================================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 10:26:52 +0000 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: M Petkovski Subject: Re: Kamenja.. On Fri, 4 Nov 1994, Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija wrote: > :) C'mon, zarem treba da se konsulitiram so nekogo za > mojot vkus? > > Pozdrav, > KiRe ViDiMCHe > Zdravo Kire, Se razbira deka nema konsultacii za vkusot. Za vkusot duri nema ni diskusii - sto bi rekol onoj Rimjaninot, mu go zaboraviv imeto. A nie sme tuka da diskutirame, neli. Da recese "Stones" ne mi se dopagjaat - se ke bese OK. Duri i da ti lichat na bleda kopija na The Beatles. Ama ti napisa deka SE bleda kopija ... No toa ne e ni tolku bitno. Sega znaes deka mnogu sum gi sakal RS na vremeto. Posle slusav Television, Patty Smith, Talking Heads, The Clash, The Jam...,pa U2 (do Joshua Tree albumot), pa Simple Minds.. Poveketo od ovie grupi ili se rasturija koga pocnaa samite sebesi da si stanuvaat dosadni ili prodolzija da ja butkaat istata svirka. Toa ti e i so Stones. Ne znaci deka toa sto go pravat ne cini, ama ako treba da se prostam od 13-14 funti, nekako polesno mi e toa da go napravam za nekoi novi klinci otkolku za uste eden dobar U2 ili Stones album. Tuka po Englezija vo posledno vreme zhivna i rock scenata (zaedno so ekonomijata?) i sekoja nedela po nekoj doagja vo Sheffield i sviri ili vo 'mojot' Student Union (inaku poznat kako "The Best SU in UK", za 1992 i 1993) ili vo legendarniot Leadmill - edna dupka vo koja svirele i The Beatles, uste pred da odat vo Hamburg. Ne znam da li gi ima nadvor od UK ama tuka veke se "big" grupi kako The Cranberies, Massive Attack, The Suede, Levellers ... da spomnam samo nekolku. Sto se odnesuva do Cile, nema veza. Mislam coekot, a ne tvojot predlog. Tvojot predlog si e OK. Mozese i Milan Pancevski da go stavis na listata - pa ke go imavme kompletnoto duo Cile-Mile (bez kormilar). Sto se odnesuva na ona "Kamenja" vo naslovot, na znam da li znaete ama nekade vo 70-tite na top listata na slavniot Ekran (nikogas ne mi bese jasno kako gi sostavuvaat top listite vo nasata tatkovina) pisuvase: 1. 2. .. i-1. i. Angja - Kamenja sto se trkalaat i+1. .. n-1. n. Mnogu pozdravi do site a osobeno do Kire Vidimche (Vidimche?? Is it Bitola??) MIHAIL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 12:04:29 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: Muzika In-Reply-To: <9411040157.AA03243@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "D Alexander Bailey" at Nov 3, 94 04:21:46 pm > d. Lilith: "Stone" (This disc gives the term "rock music" new > meaning - all of the sounds used were originally produced using > stones, striking, scraping, grinding etc. A very intense record). > > Xander > Sounds very much like "Einstuerzende Neubauten", for. The name is probably a tongue-braker, but they make some I would say experimental rock music. They used kango-hammers, 20000 Volt transformators and other mainly industrial sounds. But then E.N. egsist for quite a long time. Alex ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 12:22:06 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: Muzika -KiRe In-Reply-To: <9411031716.AA23211@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija" at Nov 3, 94 04:35:24 pm > Za nekoi raboti odlichno se soglasuvame. :) > 1. Sisters of Mercy - ok, ama premnogu mrachno > 2. The Cure - Great!!! Gi *obozhavam*! Ako nekoj e > zainteresiran, gi imam SKORO SITE (99%) tekstovi od pesnite > koi gi imaat objaveno do sega (vkluchuvajkji gi i single-ovite), > i toa, razbira se, vo elektronska forma. :) > Najdobri albumi: > - Three Imaginary Boys (aka Boys don't cry) > - Seventeen seconds > - Disintegration > - Wish > 5. DCD - odlichno > 6. RHCP - ne > > Nego, shto velite za Dinosaur Jr., Pixies, The Smiths, U2, > Depeche Mode, Simple Minds, Queen, The Beatles, The Doors, Joy > Division, ABBA? > > Pozdrav, > KiRe ViDiMCHe > Hi bidejki reche daka ako nekoj e zainteresiran za tekstovi treba da se javi ( slobodna interpretacija na tvoite, gorenavedeni, zborovi ) zainteresiran sum za tekstot od "Love Song" od Desintegration. Za DCD : dali mozhe barem da mi posochish kade mozhe da se najdat tekstovi za albumite na DCD i toa po mozhnost da e naveden i jazikot na koj shto odredeni pesni se peeni ? Znaesh od DCD imam skoro se osven DCD - DCD albumot i kompilacijata A passage in time. Posebno bi me interesirale informacii za albumot AION ( aka Black sun ). 1. Dinosaur Jr. - go nemam slushnato ( bar ne cel album ). Poedinechni pesni mi se dopagjaat, no nemam nishto konkretno od nego. 2. Pixies! Za zhal izgleda vo mojot prv tekst zaboraviv da gi spomenam. Odlichni se. Od niv gi imam Bossanova i Surfer Rosa & Come on pilgrim. 3. The Smiths - albumot shto go IMAV ( go pozajmiv nekomu vo Skopje pa i toj go pozajmil, pa taka go snema ) beshe odlichen ( i e ). 4. U2 ....Hmm, nekoi pesni se stvarno silni, no se na se ne e grupa koja shto bi ja slushal. 5. Depeche Mode - i niv zaboraviv da gi spomenam. Od niv go imam samo Violator, no sega od eden kolega kje soberam ushte neshto. Great ! 6. Simple Minds, Queen, The Bea's, The D's - ne. Osven reeetki iskluchoci. 7. Joy Division - o.k. 8. ABBA .... Hmmm quite O.K. ( omilena grupa na tatko mi ) >:-) Grretings, Alex ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 12:55:33 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: Comments In-Reply-To: <9411041305.AA15374@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Sacha Shopov" at Nov 5, 94 00:02:47 am > > Makedonci, > > I'm intersted in what peoples comments are regarding the returning > of the present Macedonian government and its consequences in regard > with solving the dispute with Greece over our name. We have all > read the MILS/MIC reports already (i assume) and to me they don't > really sound promising. > >sachz Zdravo, deka Grchko-Makedonskiot spor treba da se reshi e nedvosmisleno. Potreba od toa imame nie Makedoncite, a ne pomalku i nashite juzhni soselani Grcite. Za da toj spor se reshi objektivno potreben e kompromis, kompromis od DVETE strani. Toa znachi popushtanje i od edna i od druga strana. Za izmenite na ustavot ne mozham da dadam komentar, bidejki ne sum jurist, nitu sum detalno zapoznaen so baranjata na Grcite i tekstot na ustavot. Za znameto. Ne znam dali beshe taktichki genijalno zamislen poteg ili potpolna glupost shto na Makedonskoto zname beshe zalepeno sonceto od Vergina. Vo Skopje ( od provladini lugje ) se shushka deka toa ( kako demek ) bil adut za koj shto mozheme da pregovarame. Jas povekje go delam mislenjeto deka izborot na sonceto na Vergina kako oficijalen simbol beshe politichki nepromislena glupost ( ili utka ). Mislam, najverojatno vo opshtiot balkanski gen-mix-coctail ne se znae tochno koj od kogo poteknuva, koj so kogo bil sroden, kako i zoshto, no barem nas ( vo Skopje , znachi i nasekade vo svetot ) vo uchilishte ne uchea deka antichkite Makedoci bile ako ne hellensko pleme ( ili barem hellenophilo ). Od druga strana sonceto od sekogash bilo kako sonce ( ne stilizirano ) del od makedonskata tradicija ( grbot na bivsha SRM sodrzheshe sonce ). Na utakmicata Shpanija vs. Makedonija zabelezhav ednao zname koe shto imashe sonce, koe shto so dovolno fantazija mozheshe da se vidi deka e nekoj moderen design na sonceto od Vergina. Pa spored toa mozhno bi bilo da se zamisli na Makedonskoto zname da ne se vee sonceto od Vergina tuku nekoe drugo sonce, pa ne e iskluchivo i toa da ima 16 kraci. Tuka ima dovolno mesto za izmeni i razgovor. Za imeto. Definitivno od ovoj stav nema popushtanje. Zborot makedonija treba i ( se nadevam ) kje bide sostaven i CENTRALEN del na imeto na ( oficijalno ) FYRM. Nova ili Gorna Makedonija za mene ne doagjaat vo predvid. Shto se odnesuva do nazivot Rep. Severna Makedonija it's O.K. with me bidejki geografski it hits the point, t.e. Rep.Mak. e severniot del na geografskata oblast Makedonija. Shto se odnesuva do nazivot SlavoMakedonci jas ne se slozhuvam so toj naziv, no eve vo Germanija ima oblast Saksonija naselena so Saksonci ( Sachsen, saxons ). Od druga strana oni shto se narekuvaat saksonci a zhiveat vo U.K. ( Tommies ) gi vikaat Anglo saksonci :-). Shto sekako e nesporedivo so politichkata realnost vo Makedonija, bidejki anglosaksoncite nikoj ne gi prisilil da se vikaat taka. Just a joke. Pozdravi do site Alex ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 17:52:57 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Kompromis(i) Alex reche: > Za izmenite na ustavot ne mozham da dadam komentar, bidejki ne sum jurist, > nitu sum detalno zapoznaen so baranjata na Grcite i tekstot na ustavot. Ne gledam nishto inkriminirachko vo nashiot Ustav. > Za znameto. Ne znam dali beshe taktichki genijalno zamislen poteg ili > potpolna glupost shto na Makedonskoto zname beshe zalepeno sonceto od > Vergina. Vo Skopje ( od provladini lugje ) se shushka deka toa ( kako demek Za ova nemam definitiven stav - najmnogu zatoa shto istorijata e (za mene skoro neverojatno) neprecizna okolu ova prashanje. T.e., povekje bi rekol deka postojat premnogu verzii koi edna so druga so pobivaat i na kraj, chovek ne mozhe da znae na koja tochno da i poveruva. Tochno e deka sonceto e pronajdeno vo Vergina kade shto pishuvalo 'So pras - arno' (na grchki), no, koj znae zoshto tokmu bil koristen grchkiot jazik? Koj znae dali Aleksandar Makedonski bil asimiliran od Grcite ili pak Slovenite gi asimilirale i ednite i drugite, na teritorijata na Makedonija. Najinteresno e deka i den, denes, vo Makedonija ima poprilichen broj lugje (barem jas znam dosta) koi se deklariraat kako Makedonci, direktni potomci na antichkite Makedoncite i Aleksandar Makedonski. Vo sekoj sluchaj, izmenata na znameto bi predizvikala tragichni posledici vo zemjata, prvo kako reakcija na masata, a vtoro od finansiski aspekt - gi primeti reakciite na Grcite za Olympic? > ) FYRM. Nova ili Gorna Makedonija za mene ne doagjaat vo predvid. Shto se > odnesuva do nazivot Rep. Severna Makedonija it's O.K. with me bidejki > geografski it hits the point, t.e. Rep.Mak. e severniot del na geografskata > oblast Makedonija. Shto se odnesuva do nazivot SlavoMakedonci jas ne se Ne gledam kako bi mozhelo 'Severna' da odgovora? Za da ima Severna, treba da ima i Juzhna. Dali toa znachi deka koj znae po koj pat, Makedoncite kje bidat podeleni, a ovoj pat na najnizok nachin - Severnomakedonci i Juzhnomakedonci? Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimce - vkire@lotus.mk =I cant slow down, like a river= = Bojmija 8/24 =kvidimce@a1.news.mk- I'm flowing, on and on... = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone = Someway, somehow, I'll find = - Republic of Macedonia- +389-91-411-125 - where I'm going someday.. - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 17:51:06 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Muzika Todd reche: > Zabavni Makedonski: Leb i Sol, Memorija. Kiril, napisi za ovie Lola V. > Stein grupa od Skopje, MTV gi falea nesto. Bas me > interesiraat. Drugar mi pisuva vo Skopje imalo eden > koncert na ALT. grupi od cel Balkan, a posle imalo > izvestaj na MTV za toj happening. Za Lola V. Stein - prv pat chuv na Makedon. O:) Anyway, mozham da se rasprasham i da prenesam. A za koncertot - da, imashe eden vo Juni, heshto ala Reding Festivalot (barem taka beshe zamisleno :). Imashe grupi od cel Balkan, duri i od Grcija. :) Celovecherni zabavi, vo kratki crti opishano - i fina stvar, osobeno ako obrneme vnimanie na faktot deka se odrzhuvashe za prv pat. Najinteresno beshe deka najgolemi zabeleshki bea staveni ne na muzikata :), tuku na nemanjeto WC. :))) Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 17:52:18 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Muzika Alex reche: > bidejki reche daka ako nekoj e zainteresiran za tekstovi treba da se javi > (slobodna interpretacija na tvoite, gorenavedeni, zborovi ) zainteresiran sum > za tekstot od "Love Song" od Desintegration. Sure. Wait a sec... Here it is: Love Song Whenever I'm alone with you you make me feel like I am home again Whenever I'm alone with you you make me feel like I am whole again Whenever I'm alone with you you make me feel like i am young again whenever I'm alone with you you make me feel like I am fun again However far away I will always love you However long I stay I will always love you Whatever words I say I will always love you I will always love you Whenever I'm alone with you you make me feel like I am free again Whenever I'm alone with you you make me feel like I am clean again However far away I will always love you However long I stay I will always love you Whatever words I say I will always love you I will always love you Interesno e deka Disintegration e prviot LP koj go imam chueno od The Cure, se razbira, ne smetajkji gi megahitovite "Close to Me" i kompanija. Posle prvoto slushanje, "Pictures of you" i "Love song" mi ostavija najsilen vpechatok, no, denes, po nekolkugodishno "druzhenje" so The Cure, najdobra pesna na Disintegration, spored mene, e "The same deep water as you". The same deep water as you Kiss me goodbye pushing out before I sleep can't you see I try swimming the same deep water as you is hard "The shallow drowned lose less than we" you breathe the strangest twist upon you lips "And we shall be together..." "Kiss me goodbye bow your head and join with me" and face pushed deep reflections meet the strangest twist upon your lips and disappear the ripples clear and laughing break against your feet and laughing break the mirror sweet "so we shall be together..." "kiss me goodbye" pushing out before I sleep it's lower now and slower now the strangest twist upon your lips but I don't see and I don't feel but tightly hold up silently my hands before my fading eyes and in my eyes your smile the very last thing before I go... I will kiss you I will kiss you I will kiss you forever on nights like this I will kiss you I will kiss you and we shall be together... Ushte samo edna pesna (I promise :), koja neverojatno mi se dopagja - "From the edge of the deep green sea". Se raboti za pesna od posledniot album na The Cure - "Wish". From the edge of the deep green sea Every time we do this I fall for her Wave after wave after wave it's all for her "I know this can't be wrong" I say (and I'll lie to keep her happy) "As long as I know that you know that today I belong right here with you right here with you..." And so we watch the sun comes up from the edge of the deep green sea And she listens like her head's on fire like she wants to believe in me So I try "Put you hands in the sky Surrender Remember We'll be here forever And we'll never say goodbye..." I've never been so colourfully-see-through-head before I've never been so wonderfully-me-you-want-some-more And all I want is to keep it like this You and me alone A secret kiss And don't go home Don't go away Don't let this end Please stay Not just for today "Never never never never never let me go" she says "Hold me like this for a hundred thousand million days" But suddenly she slows And looks down at my breaking face "Why do you cry ? What did i say ?" "But it's just rain" I smile Brushing my tears away... I wish I could just stop I know another moment will break my heart Too many tears Too many times Too many years I've cried over you How much more can we use it up ? Drink it dry ? Take this drug ? Looking for something forever gone But something We will always want ? "Why why why are you letting me go ?" she says "I feel you pulling back I feel you changing shape..." And just as I'm breaking free She hangs herself in front of me Slips her dress like a flag to the floor And hands in the sky Surrender it all... I wish I could just stop I know another moment will break my heart Too many tears Too many times Too many years I've cried for you It's always the same Wake up in the rain Head in pain Hung in shame A different name Same old game Love in vain And miles and miles and miles and miles and miles Away from home again... Lyrics by Robert Smith > Za DCD : dali mozhe barem da mi posochish kade mozhe da se najdat tekstovi > za albumite na DCD i toa po mozhnost da e naveden i jazikot na koj shto > odredeni pesni se peeni ? Znaesh od DCD imam skoro se osven DCD - DCD > albumot i kompilacijata A passage in time. Posebno bi me interesirale > informacii za albumot AION ( aka Black sun ). Za zhal, prilichno sum shtur so informacii za DCD - a ushte povekje so textovi. > 2. Pixies! Za zhal izgleda vo mojot prv tekst zaboraviv da gi > spomenam. Odlichni se. Od niv gi imam Bossanova i Surfer Rosa & > Come on pilgrim. A jas istite tie i ushte plus Doolittle. Najmnogu mi se dopagja albumot 'Come on pilgrim' (ustvari ne e album, tuku EP). > 3. The Smiths - albumot shto go IMAV ( go pozajmiv nekomu vo Skopje > pa i toj go pozajmil, pa taka go snema ) beshe odlichen ( i e ). Mene najmnogu mi se dopagja 'The queen is dead'. > 4. U2 ....Hmm, nekoi pesni se stvarno silni, no se na se ne e grupa > koja shto bi ja slushal. Spored mene, megju drugite, najdobri pesni im se 'Bullet the blue sky' (The Joshua Tree) i 'Acrobat' (Achtung Baby). Namerno ne gi spomenuvam mega-hitovite od pred The Jushua Tree albumot, bidejkji od premnogu vrtenje mi deluvaat 'abused'. > 5. Depeche Mode - i niv zaboraviv da gi spomenam. Od niv go imam > samo Violator, no sega od eden kolega kje soberam ushte neshto. > Great ! Violator i Music for the masses, se spored mene najdobrite albumi. > 6. Simple Minds, Queen, The Bea's, The D's - ne. Osven reeetki > iskluchoci. Why not? Bi rekol deka muzikata na The Beatles mozhe da se 'pronajde' vo skoro sekoja moderna R'n'R grupa. Inaku, koga vekje spomenav deka gi imam textovite na The Cure, da ja navedam kompletnata lista: - Skoro site pesni od U2 (vkluchuvajkji i lista na diskografii, piratski albumi itn.) - Soliden del od pesnite na Pixies - Par albumi od Depeche Mode - Neshto (malku) od Pink Floyd (dali ja spomenav prethodno? Fantastichna grupa!) Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 17:51:30 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Muzika Mihail reche: > Da recese "Stones" ne mi se dopagjaat - se ke bese OK. Duri > i da ti lichat na bleda kopija na The Beatles. Ama ti > napisa deka SE bleda kopija ... No toa ne e ni tolku bitno. Well, mozhebi trebashe da dodadam edno "IMHO", ili "spored mene". > nadvor od UK ama tuka veke se "big" grupi kako The > Cranberies, Massive Attack, The Suede, Levellers ... da > spomnam samo nekolku. Prvite dve mi se nepoznati, za razlika od vtorite dve (The Suede egzistiraat na MTV vekje doooolgo vreme, a The Levellers mi se chini svirea na proshliot Reding). Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 15:05:32 -0400 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Oliver Bosnjakovski - EDCC Subject: bmp Would anyone out there happen to have a .bmp of the macedonian flag that i can put up as my background screen on my pc? Thanks Oliver ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 20:28:33 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Soccer - Scores Prva makedonska fudbalska liga. 12-to kolo: Borec - Vardar .............. 1 : 1 Pobeda Vitaminka - Ohrid ............... 2 : 1 Tikvesh - Sloga Jugomagnat .... 1 : 2 Sasa - FCU ................. 2 : 0 Ljuboten - Rudar ............... 1 : 0 Balkan Bisi - Pelister ............ 3 : 0 Sileks - Kozhuv Vinojug ......10 : 1 Osogovo - Belasica ............ 6 : 1 Idno 13-to kolo (sreda): Belasica - Borec Kozhuv Vinojug - Osogovo Pelister - Sileks Rudar - Balkan Bisi FCU - Ljuboten Sloga Jugomagnat - Sasa Ohrid - Tikvesh Vardar - Pobeda Vitaminka Tabela: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Tim Utakmici Pob. Ner Izg Golovi Bodovi ------------------------------------------------------------------ 1. Vardar 12 8 4 0 27 : 6 28 2. Pobeda Vitaminka 12 8 1 3 23 : 14 25 3. Osogovo 12 6 6 0 31 : 8 24 4. Balkan Bisi 12 7 2 3 20 : 12 23 5. Pelister 12 6 3 3 21 : 12 21 6. Sloga Jugomagnat 12 6 3 3 17 : 14 21 7. Sileks 12 6 2 4 26 : 14 20 8. Sasa 12 6 1 5 20 : 12 19 9. Rudar 12 5 2 5 20 : 23 17 10. Tikvesh 12 4 2 6 11 : 20 14 11. Ljuboten 12 4 1 7 18 : 29 13 12. Belasica 12 3 2 7 19 : 26 11 13. FCU 12 2 3 7 6 : 13 9 14. Ohrid 12 3 0 9 9 : 20 9 15. Borec 12 2 3 7 11 : 28 9 16. Kozhuv Vinojug 12 1 3 8 9 : 37 6 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 15:34:43 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Daniel Veljanovski M U Z I K A Super topic. Kolku da go podelam moeto mislene so vas momci..... >Alex reche: > Skoro seshto, vsushnost anything but pop !! > Sisters of Mercy, Cure, Ex-Nirvana, Soundgarden, Dead can dance, RHCP, a ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Excellent. Do you like Cristian Death, Bauhous, and Xymax too? > posebno sakam filmska muzika ( nezavisno od toa dali muzikata e score, ili > povekje posebni pesni ), Vangelis, Jean-Michelle Jarre, Front 242 a mozham > da kazham deka mi se dopagja i The Prodigy. >Kire reche: > Za nekoi raboti odlichno se soglasuvame. :) > 1. Sisters of Mercy - ok, ama premnogu mrachno One of my favorite. > 2. The Cure - Great!!! Gi *obozhavam*! Ako nekoj e > zainteresiran, gi imam SKORO SITE (99%) tekstovi od pesnite > koi gi imaat objaveno do sega (vkluchuvajkji gi i single-ovite), > i toa, razbira se, vo elektronska forma. :) > Najdobri albumi: > - Three Imaginary Boys (aka Boys don't cry) > - Seventeen seconds Dobari "Head on the door" isto. > - Disintegration Dobar "Kiss, kiss, kiss" isto > - Wish Sucked. Too comertial and dissapointing. Gi gledav Cure dvapati live. Prviot pat bev megu poslednite redovi ama vtoriot, na treti, samo 1m od Robert. Denovi koga sakav da se farbam temnoplavo, a na kraj ispadna skinhead. Super concert imaa. > 3. (Ex-)Nirvana - super. > Najdobri albumi: > - Bleach > - Nevermind Me nerviraat. Posebno otkako se samoubi Kurt. > 4. Soundgarden - ne Definitivno NE > 5. DCD - odlichno Ne gi znam > 6. RHCP - ne Isto. > 7. Vangelish, Jean-Michel (MicheLLe e zhenskata verzija :)) Jare, > Mike Oldfield, Enigma.. - great Super taste. Samo da gi dodadam Deep Forest, Enya i Clanad > 8. Front 242 - ne Zosto be Kire? Dobri se. Headhunter, ja znaes? > 9. The Prodigy - ok Navistina. Za zal Uste ne se probieni dobro vo USA. > Nego, shto velite za Dinosaur Jr., Ne > Pixies, Da. Gi gledav koga otvaraa za U2. > The Smiths, MY FAVORITE. #1 of ALL TIMES. Morrissey is a dick as solo, however. Gi imam site CD's i zalam sto se raspadnaa. > U2, Dobri se ama i dosadni ponekogas. > Depeche Mode, Definitifno go rasipaa svojot imidz so poslenite albumi. Edinstvena pricina zosto ne gi gledav. A porasnav so niv. > Simple Minds, Super se. > Queen, Ne, samo sentisot od Highlander. > The Beatles, Sekogas osvezuvacki > The Doors, Isto > Joy Division, Excellent. New Order isto. > ABBA? Dobri. Imam ton CD's doma pretezno alternative, gothic, industrial, pank etc.. Ne podnesuvam heavy metal (Bon Jovi G&R), Rap, club, pop, i prestavnici na 'noviot' (corny za mene) mainstream vo usa kako Pearl Jam. Drugi favorites: BAUHOUS, BiGod 20, Killing Joke, Pchicodelic Furs, Clash, Peter Marphy, Blur, Ministry.. Pesna na vekov: "How Soon is Now" the Smiths. Recap: Abe nie Makedoncite navistina sme imale vkus. >Pozdrav, >KiRe ViDiMCHe >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >- Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - >= Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = >= 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = >- Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Aj na zdravje, ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 16:03:56 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: yane Subject: Re: Soccer - Scores In-Reply-To: <199411072046.PAA15480@io.org> On Mon, 7 Nov 1994, Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija wrote: > Prva makedonska fudbalska liga. > 12-to kolo: > > Borec - Vardar .............. 1 : 1 > Pobeda Vitaminka - Ohrid ............... 2 : 1 > Tikvesh - Sloga Jugomagnat .... 1 : 2 > Sasa - FCU ................. 2 : 0 > Ljuboten - Rudar ............... 1 : 0 > Balkan Bisi - Pelister ............ 3 : 0 > Sileks - Kozhuv Vinojug ......10 : 1 > Osogovo - Belasica ............ 6 : 1 > > Idno 13-to kolo (sreda): > > Belasica - Borec > Kozhuv Vinojug - Osogovo > Pelister - Sileks > Rudar - Balkan Bisi > FCU - Ljuboten > Sloga Jugomagnat - Sasa > Ohrid - Tikvesh > Vardar - Pobeda Vitaminka > > Tabela: > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Tim Utakmici Pob. Ner Izg Golovi Bodovi > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > 1. Vardar 12 8 4 0 27 : 6 28 > 2. Pobeda Vitaminka 12 8 1 3 23 : 14 25 > 3. Osogovo 12 6 6 0 31 : 8 24 > 4. Balkan Bisi 12 7 2 3 20 : 12 23 > 5. Pelister 12 6 3 3 21 : 12 21 > 6. Sloga Jugomagnat 12 6 3 3 17 : 14 21 > 7. Sileks 12 6 2 4 26 : 14 20 > 8. Sasa 12 6 1 5 20 : 12 19 > 9. Rudar 12 5 2 5 20 : 23 17 > 10. Tikvesh 12 4 2 6 11 : 20 14 > 11. Ljuboten 12 4 1 7 18 : 29 13 > 12. Belasica 12 3 2 7 19 : 26 11 > 13. FCU 12 2 3 7 6 : 13 9 > 14. Ohrid 12 3 0 9 9 : 20 9 > 15. Borec 12 2 3 7 11 : 28 9 > 16. Kozhuv Vinojug 12 1 3 8 9 : 37 6 > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Pozdrav, > KiRe ViDiMCHe > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - > = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = > = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = > - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Konecno nekoja konkretna rabota od Kircheta. Veke bev na pragot da baram otpisuvanje od MAKEDON citajki gi mislite ssto go opsednuvaa. Way to go Kire. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 16:17:51 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Plamen Bliznakov Subject: Re: Soccer - Scores yane writes... >Konecno nekoja konkretna rabota od Kircheta. Veke bev na pragot da baram >otpisuvanje od MAKEDON citajki gi mislite ssto go opsednuvaa. >Way to go Kire. Se izvinuvam, ama ne se slozhuvam so toa. Mislam, treba da blagodarime mnogu na Kire i Boris za informacijata shto ni ja prakjaat od Makedonija (bidejki koristat nivnoto svobodno vreme da ni davaat poveke gledishta za toa shto se sluchuva tamo). Mislam, isto taka e u red deka ne sichko shto se pishuva na edna grupa kako MAKEDON e interesno na sichki ostanati (-> del), nitu pa treba da se dopagja na sichki (-> reply). Chini mi se, nema po losho neshto ot ednoumieto, a prirodata na Internet e tochno protiv ednoumieto. Pozdrav, Plamen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 17:22:54 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: vkus i skijanje Daniel Veljanovski pissuva: (Del: "Sucks/Super" muziccka lista na Dani) > Recap: Abe nie Makedoncite navistina sme imale vkus. Otsekogass mi se svigjalo kaj tebe ssto si vaka samokriticcen. ;^) Cheers, Zoran ;^) P.S. Kade kke skijaat MakedoNet-eri zimovo ? Jas ssibam vo Killington, VT. Inacce jas icc ne se falam...Samo informiram. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 22:27:14 GMT-5 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: VLADIMIR OGNJANOVSKI Organization: Indiana State University Subject: muzika, muzika, muzika... Hey, What about some old-timers like Eric Clapton, The police (Sting), Gary Moore (you've already mentioned The Stones)... Than Joe Satriani, Santana, David Bowie, Billy Idol, Bad Company, Foreigner, ZZ Top, Jimi Hendrix... And some new techno rave... (Grid, Atlantic Ocean) and YES... Deep Forest (more ambient than techno, but REEEAALY COOL). I see that many of you like this new age alternative, (is it!!?) or grunge. Too aggressive and suicidal for me... When it comes to listening I prefer good old guitar sound, but when it comes to dancing... nothing can replace techno... And what about Mr. James Brown? Vlatko O. (I feel good.....) PS: Memorija!!!? Bllaaah... Novokomponirana!!!? (nema vekje alo, alo; kafeavi, kafeavi, oci se najubavi; ZaklinaAaaaaaa...) Bllaaah... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 22:32:03 GMT-5 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: VLADIMIR OGNJANOVSKI Organization: Indiana State University Subject: pratenici Ne bi bilo loso nekoj od Makedonija (Kire) da mi gi kaze site sto ke bidat pratenici vo noviot sostav na parlamentot. Bas me interesira dali TV prenosite pak ke bidat tolku zabavni kako vo minatite cetiri godini. Vlatko O. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 23:44:24 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Plamen Bliznakov Subject: News Some excerpts from Reuter reports. Standard disclaimers apply. Plamen Plamen.Bliznakov@ASU.edu ------------------------ UN says no progress in Macedonia talks SKOPJE, Nov 7 (Reuter) - U.N. chief Boutros Boutros-Ghali held more than six hours of talks with Macedonian President Kiro Gligorov on Monday, but said no progress was made on resolving the former Yugoslav republic's dispute with Greece. On his return from the talks in Geneva to the Macedonian capital Skopje, Gligorov said everything was subject to negotiations except for the name of his tiny republic. ``Talks haven't shown any progress so far. The other side should also show goodwil,'' he told reporters. The U.N. secretary-general met Gligorov with U.N. envoy Cyrus Vance, who has been mediating between Athens and Skopje in their argument over Macedonia's name. Greece says Skopje's use of the name Macedonia implies territorial ambitions over Greece's northern province of the same name and has imposed a trade embargo on the republic. It also demands that Macedonia change its flag with its sun symbol and one constitutional article which refers to Macedonian minorities living outside the tiny landlocked republic. Gligorov's re-election as president three weeks ago led to hopes that Macedonia would adopt a more flexible negotiating position. But Macedonian sources said it was too early to expect any bolder moves on Skopje's part since the government has not yet been formed and the new parliament has yet to be constituted. Gligorov said Macedonia's name was the stumbling block. ``The right of our people to confirm its constitutional name in the international community must be respected...Everything else is a subject for negotiations.'' Western diplomats in Macedonia believe that the issue of the flag and constitution are issues that could be solved more easily than the name. Gligorov said: ``If anyone is interested in a quick agreement with Greece, then it is us. We have always shown goodwill and readiness for certain steps, which should mean that the other side should also show goodwill.'' Boutros-Ghali told reporters: ``We had more than six hours of negotiations with President Gligorov and we must recognise that there is no progress.'' He said Vance would report to the Greeks in the next few days about the negotiations and he himself would report to the Security Council. He hoped negotiations would continue. Boutros-Ghali refused to go into details about the negotiations or comment on whether any new proposals had been made. Vance has proposed a succession of various names over the past 18 months, but none has been acceptable to both the Greeks and the Macedonians. REUTER Transmitted: 94-11-07 15:28:06 EST Arts And Entertainment Briefs HOLLYWOOD (Variety) - Milcho Manchevski's ``Before the Rain'' will be Macedonia's first official entry for the 67th Academy Awards. The film, to be distributed by Gramercy, stars Katrin Cartlidge, Rade Serbedzja, Gregoire Colin and Labina Mitevska. It is a co-production between Aim Productions, Noe Productions and Macedonia's Vardar Film. Producers are Cedomir Kolar, Judy Counihan, Sam Taylor and Cat Villiers. REUTER Transmitted: 94-11-07 23:24:42 EST ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 13:06:34 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: Muzika In-Reply-To: <9411071836.AA16813@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija" at Nov 7, 94 05:52:18 pm Zdravo, zdravo > > Mene najmnogu mi se dopagja 'The queen is dead'. Tokmu taa pesna beshe na albumot koj shto go snema ( out of sight, but not out of mind ). > > Inaku, koga vekje spomenav deka gi imam textovite na The Cure, > da ja navedam kompletnata lista: > - Skoro site pesni od U2 (vkluchuvajkji i lista na > diskografii, piratski albumi itn.) > - Soliden del od pesnite na Pixies > - Par albumi od Depeche Mode > - Neshto (malku) od Pink Floyd (dali ja spomenav prethodno? > Fantastichna grupa!) > > Pozdrav, > KiRe ViDiMCHe > Od Pink Floyd go imam samo The Wall, i se slozhuvam deka se odlichna grupa. Inaku jas imam dosta tekstovi od Sisters of Mercy, kje pisham neshto ( ako najdam vreme ). Dali gi spomenav "Fields of the Nephilim", grupa koja shto se raspadna pred nekolku godini. Odlichni se. Dali ste chule za Deine Lakeien, iako germansko ime, sepak tekstovite im se na English. Dosta mi se dopagjaat, a gi otkriv pred edna godina. Vredi da se slushnat. Inaku go kupiv soundtrackot od The Crow i na nego otkriv mnoshtvo dobri pesni: Burn - Cure Golgotha tenement blues - im_go_zaboraviv_imeto Pesni od Stone Temple Pilots i Nine inch Nails. Pozdrav Alex ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 13:09:28 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: Kompromis(i) In-Reply-To: <9411071827.AA16620@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija" at Nov 7, 94 05:52:57 pm Zdravo > > Ne gledam kako bi mozhelo 'Severna' da odgovora? Za da ima > Severna, treba da ima i Juzhna. Dali toa znachi deka koj > znae po koj pat, Makedoncite kje bidat podeleni, a ovoj > pat na najnizok nachin - Severnomakedonci i Juzhnomakedonci? > > Pozdrav, > KiRe ViDiMCHe > Zarem Makedonija ne e vekje poodamno ( 1912 ) podelena ?? Alex ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 19:32:06 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Basketball - scores Mak partner A1 kosharkarska liga. Sedmo kolo: Vardar - Kochani Delikates ... 70 : 85 Godel Rabotnichki - Makedonija 91 .......119 : 82 Gostivar - MZT Skopje .......... 84 : 94 Nemetali Ograzhden- Centar .............. 80 : 67 Idno Osmo kolo: Zhito Vardar - Kochani Delikates Centar - Vardar Makedonija 91 - Nemetali Ograzhden MZT Skopje - Godel Rabotnichki Alumina - Gostivar Tabela: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Tim Utakmici Pob. Ner Izg Golovi Bodovi ------------------------------------------------------------------ 1. Godel Rabotnichki 7 7 0 685 : 559 14 2. Pobeda Vitaminka 7 6 1 669 : 492 13 3. Delikates 7 6 1 598 : 518 13 4. Vardar 7 3 4 562 : 548 10 5. Nemetali Ograzhden 7 3 4 591 : 592 10 6. Zhito Vardar 6 3 3 627 : 532 9 7. Gostivar 7 2 5 557 : 582 9 8. Makedonija 91 7 2 5 550 : 653 9 9. Centar 7 1 6 473 : 587 8 10. Alumina 6 1 5 429 : 578 7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 19:32:41 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Muzika Daniel reche: > > - Three Imaginary Boys (aka Boys don't cry) > > - Seventeen seconds > Dobari > "Head on the door" isto. Dobar. Ama tie pogore se podobri. :) > > - Disintegration > Dobar "Kiss, kiss, kiss" isto Eh da. Kako samo mozhev da go zaboravam. Najdobra pesna od Kiss x 3: Just like heaven "Show me how you do that trick the one that makes me scream" she said "The one that makes me laugh" she said And threw her arms around my neck "Show me how you do it and i promise you i promise that I'll run away with you I'll run away with you" spinning on that dizzy edge I kissed her face and kissed her head and dreamed of all the different ways I had to make her glow "Why are you so far away?" she said "Why won't you ever know that I'm in love with you That i'm in love with you" You soft and only You lost and lonely You strange as angels dancing in the deepest oceans twisting in the water You're just like a dream Daylight licked me into shape I must have been asleep for days and moving lips to breathe her name I opened up my eyes and found myself alone alone alone above a raging sea that stole the only girl I loved and drowned her deep inside of me You Soft and only You Lost and lonely You Just like heaven > > - Wish > Sucked. Too comertial and dissapointing. Istoto go pomisliv i jas koga pochna da se prodava. No, go kupiv, preslushav i zakluchiv deka e genijalen. Ako tvoeto mislenje si go izgradil vrz baza na onie "hitovi" shto se vrtea na MTV (Friday, I'm in love - sux!, High - bljak) brishi gi predrasudite i chuj gi ostanatite pesni (From the edge of the deep green sea, Open, Wendy time, Doing the unstuck, End...). A ako si gi chul i niv... no problem, tvoe mislenje i tvoj vkus. :) > > 5. DCD - odlichno > Ne gi znam Dead Can Dance? > > > 7. Vangelish, Jean-Michel (MicheLLe e zhenskata verzija :)) Jare, > > Mike Oldfield, Enigma.. - great > Super taste. Samo da gi dodadam Deep Forest, Enya i Clanad Za Deep Forest i Clanad prv pat slusham, no, Enya - great! > > 8. Front 242 - ne > Zosto be Kire? Dobri se. Headhunter, ja znaes? Ne? > > The Smiths, > MY FAVORITE. #1 of ALL TIMES. Morrissey is a dick as solo, however. > Gi imam site CD's i zalam sto se raspadnaa. Lichno (ne me mavaj :), ne gledam nekoja razlika pomegju The Smiths i Morrissey - ista muzika, isti tekstovi... Edinstveno shto me iznervira beshe izjavata na Morrissey, vo koja veli deka 50% od ona shto go rabotel so grupata The Smiths bilo prvoklasen shit?!?! > > Depeche Mode, > Definitifno go rasipaa svojot imidz so poslenite albumi. Edinstvena > pricina zosto ne gi gledav. A porasnav so niv. Posledniot album, so odredeni iskluchoci (edna-dve pesni) im e deep-shit. > > Simple Minds, > Super se. Nekoi velat za niv deka se edinstvenite koi ostanaa dosledni na stilot - prashanje e dali e toa kvalitet ili...? > Imam ton CD's doma pretezno alternative, gothic, industrial, pank etc.. > Ne podnesuvam heavy metal (Bon Jovi G&R), Rap, club, pop, i prestavnici ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yes! > na 'noviot' (corny za mene) mainstream vo usa kako Pearl Jam. Pearl Jam - no? WHY? Fantastichni se! A REM? How about Paul Simon/Art Garfunkel, David Bowie, Sting, The Police, Elvis Presley, ponatamu jazz-erite kako Chick Korea, John Patittuchi (vaka li se spell-uva?) i ________ (ne se sekjavam na imeto)? Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 19:33:04 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Parlamentarci Vlatko reche: > Ne bi bilo loso nekoj od Makedonija (Kire) da mi gi kaze site sto ke > bidat pratenici vo noviot sostav na parlamentot. Bas me interesira > dali TV prenosite pak ke bidat tolku zabavni kako vo minatite cetiri > godini. Pa bogami, bez 'vrapcheto' sigurno nema da bide tolku interesno. ;) Spisokot go imashe odamna vo Nova Makedonija. Ako uspeam da go iskopam - kje go prenesam. Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 19:33:18 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Delbi Alex reche: > > Ne gledam kako bi mozhelo 'Severna' da odgovora? Za da ima > > Severna, treba da ima i Juzhna. Dali toa znachi deka koj > > znae po koj pat, Makedoncite kje bidat podeleni, a ovoj > > pat na najnizok nachin - Severnomakedonci i Juzhnomakedonci? > > Zarem Makedonija ne e vekje poodamno ( 1912 ) podelena ?? Mislish deka zaradi toa treba da se prodolzhi so delbite? Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 22:29:06 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Basketball - correction Mala greshka vo prethodnata tabela! (ne postoi Pobeda vo kosharka :)) Tabela: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Tim Utakmici Pob. Ner Izg Golovi Bodovi ------------------------------------------------------------------ 1. Godel Rabotnichki 7 7 0 685 : 559 14 ===> 2. MZT Skopje 7 6 1 669 : 492 13 3. Delikates 7 6 1 598 : 518 13 4. Vardar 7 3 4 562 : 548 10 5. Nemetali Ograzhden 7 3 4 591 : 592 10 6. Zhito Vardar 6 3 3 627 : 532 9 7. Gostivar 7 2 5 557 : 582 9 8. Makedonija 91 7 2 5 550 : 653 9 9. Centar 7 1 6 473 : 587 8 10. Alumina 6 1 5 429 : 578 7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 16:24:46 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: yane Subject: Re: Basketball - scores In-Reply-To: <199411082036.PAA01864@io.org> Ti blagodarime Kire. Stanuvas se pointeresen za citanje. I odgovor na Plamen. Ne sum za ednoumie (nedaj boze) no ne sum ni za pasivnost i kukanje. No vprocem ke ti se javam so privatna posta. Pozdrav, yane ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 11:03:49 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: Delbi + In-Reply-To: <9411082125.AA18300@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija" at Nov 8, 94 07:33:18 pm Zdravo, > > Zarem Makedonija ne e vekje poodamno ( 1912 ) podelena ?? > > Mislish deka zaradi toa treba da se prodolzhi so > delbite? > > Pozdrav, > KiRe ViDiMCHe > Kako kje gi naterash grcite svojata severna pokraina od Makedonija i trakija da ja preimenuvaat vo ??? i trakija. R.o.M. i da se prifati pod imeto Makedonija, sepak od ednata strana kje stoi "Welcome to the Republic of Makedonia", a od drugata kje stoi "Welcome to Greece" i vednash po toj znak "Welcome to Makedonia". Nee, nikoj tuka nema da pomisluva na podelbi. Deka teritorijata koja istoriski e poznata kako Makedonia kje ostane podelena pomegju povekje drzhavi (3), toa niedno ime ne mozhe da go izmeni. Normalno mozhe i od nasha strana da bide postaveno baranjeto, nashata republika da se vika R.o. Makedonia, a grcite da ja preimenuvaat svojata pokraina vo Juzhna Makedonia i Trakija. Neli ? Pozdrav od Ulm Alex ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 11:10:01 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: Muzika + In-Reply-To: <9411082121.AA18195@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija" at Nov 8, 94 07:32:41 pm Zdravo, > > Super taste. Samo da gi dodadam Deep Forest, Enya i Clanad > > Za Deep Forest i Clanad prv pat slusham, no, Enya - great! Istoto vazhi i za mene, hey Daniel send us some info about it ! Enya e vo sekoj sluchaj top !! > How about Paul Simon/Art Garfunkel, David Bowie, Sting, > The Police, Elvis Presley, ponatamu jazz-erite kako > Chick Korea, John Patittuchi (vaka li se spell-uva?) i > ________ (ne se sekjavam na imeto)? > Paul Simon/Art Garfunkel se O.K. imaat nekoi stvarno odlichni pesni. Dawid Bowie e klasa, no ne mi se dopagja se shto pravi ( na muzichki plan mislam ). Sting and The Police se super. Mene barem mnogu mi se dopagjaat, posebno Sting bidejki so The Police ne sum dovolno zapoznaen. No, not Elvis, not Elvis help ! Mozhebi reakcijava e molku preterana, no definitivno ne ( Elvis is dead ( can dance ? )) Pozdravi od Ulm Alex ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 01:49:14 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Handball - scores Prva makedonska rakometna liga. Osmo kolo: Vardar Vatrostalna- Mladost ............. 27 : 26 Povardarie - Tutunski kombinat ... 26 : 25 Tikvesh - Struga Komerc ....... 22 : 20 Gostivar - Pelister............. 25 : 31 Borec - Partizan (G) ........ 36 : 18 Idno Deveto kolo: Pelister - Vardar Vatrostalna Ognomak M - Gostivar Struga Komerc - Shevro Kumanovo Partizan (G) - Tikvesh T. Kombinat - Borec Mladost - Povardarie Tabela: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Tim Utakmici Pob. Ner Izg Golovi Bodovi ------------------------------------------------------------------ 1. Borec 8 8 0 0 212 : 137 16 2. Vardar Vatrostalna 8 7 0 1 214 : 178 14 3. Pelister 8 6 0 2 218 : 165 12 4. Povardarie 8 6 1(0) 2 195 : 166 12 5. Ognomak M 7 5 0 2 173 : 154 10 6. Mladost 8 3 1(0) 4 179 : 166 6 7. Tutunski Kombinat 8 3 0 5 190 : 183 6 8. Gostivar 8 2 1(1) 5 171 : 203 5 9. Struga Komerc 8 2 0 6 135 : 178 4 10. Tikvesh 8 2 0 6 152 : 200 4 11. Partizan (G) 8 1 0 7 156 : 217 2 12. Shevro Kumanovo 7 0 1(1) 6 108 : 161 0 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 14:40:25 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Delbi > Kako kje gi naterash grcite svojata severna pokraina od Makedonija i trakija > da ja preimenuvaat vo ??? i trakija. R.o.M. i da se prifati pod imeto Zoshto da ja preimenuvaat? Neka si stoi - na nikomu ne prechi. > Normalno mozhe i od nasha strana da bide postaveno baranjeto, nashata > republika da se vika R.o. Makedonia, a grcite da ja preimenuvaat svojata > pokraina vo Juzhna Makedonia i Trakija. Neli ? Ne gledam zoshto. Zarem treba Britancite da dostavat baranje do Francija nivnata oblast Bretanja da bide preimenuvana vo Juzhna Bretanja bidejkji Britancite ne se soglasuvaat Britanija da se preimenuva vo Severna Britanija? Do you see my point? Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 17:56:01 GMT Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: M Petkovski Subject: 6 casa so Kiro Dragi Nasi, Vcera & denes citam vo vestite deka Butros Butros & Kiro razgovarale 6 casa vo Zeneva & deka pregovorite bile mnogu teski & deka ne e postignat nikakov dogovor. Bas se mislev sto bi mozele ovie dvajca stari luge da razgovaraat 6 casa : Kiro: Imeto ne go menuvame - taka da im kazes na tie ... - za drugo moze da prajme muabet ! Butros Butros: Ama mora i za imeto nesto da naprajte be Kirco, gi znaes kakvi se grcistana... ... i taka 6 sati ??? Ako za gorniot dijalog im trebalo edno 30 sec. (znam moze & pobrzo ama so se prevod, nakashluvanje, brishenje na potta so belo shamivche...) & aj da recheme uste 5-6 minuti za razni sitni uchtivosti na pocetok ("Ej ama ti se dobri kondurite Butros Butros, kaj gi zema ???") me interesira dali nekoj od vas ima nekakva idea za sto razgovarale ostanatite 5 sati & 53-54 minuti. Se razbira, pod pretpostavka deka ne si zadremale na kauchot. Mihail -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mihail Petkovski, University of Sheffield, Department of Civil & Structural Engineering, Mappin Street, Sheffield S1 4DU, UK Tel. (0114) 2825 071; Fax. (0114) 2728 910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 19:39:53 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Boris Soposki Subject: Grcka propaganda Zdravo Ako imate Mosaic podrska probajte ja ovaa adresa da vidite sto e grcka propagandna masina vo rabota. http://www.forthnet.gr/hellas/Makedonian_history.html A eden od avtorite na ova e nasiot star poznanik od anm Harry Tsamaidis. Boris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 11:48:57 +1100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Todd Mickov Subject: Re: Handball - scores In-Reply-To: <199411091142.WAA14775@lugb.latrobe.edu.au> from "Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija" at Nov 9, 94 01:49:14 am > > Prva makedonska rakometna liga. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > 1. Borec 8 8 0 0 212 : 137 16 > 2. Vardar Vatrostalna 8 7 0 1 214 : 178 14 > 3. Pelister 8 6 0 2 218 : 165 12 > 4. Povardarie 8 6 1(0) 2 195 : 166 12 > 5. Ognomak M 7 5 0 2 173 : 154 10 > 6. Mladost 8 3 1(0) 4 179 : 166 6 > 7. Tutunski Kombinat 8 3 0 5 190 : 183 6 > 8. Gostivar 8 2 1(1) 5 171 : 203 5 > 9. Struga Komerc 8 2 0 6 135 : 178 4 > 10. Tikvesh 8 2 0 6 152 : 200 4 > 11. Partizan (G) 8 1 0 7 156 : 217 2 > 12. Shevro Kumanovo 7 0 1(1) 6 108 : 161 0 > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Pozdrav, > KiRe ViDiMCHe > Kade e OVCHE POLE? Tie bea edni od najdobrite !?! Todd ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 19:43:25 CST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Luben Todorouski Subject: Re: Delbi ++ In-Reply-To: <199411091006.EAA51739@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>; from "Aleksandar Aleksov" at Nov 9, 94 11:03 am > Kako kje gi naterash grcite svojata severna pokraina od Makedonija i trakija > da ja preimenuvaat vo ??? i trakija. R.o.M. i da se prifati pod imeto > Makedonija, sepak od ednata strana kje stoi "Welcome to the Republic of > Makedonia", a od drugata kje stoi "Welcome to Greece" i vednash po toj > znak "Welcome to Makedonia". Nee, nikoj tuka nema da pomisluva na podelbi. > Deka teritorijata koja istoriski e poznata kako Makedonia kje ostane > podelena pomegju povekje drzhavi (3), toa niedno ime ne mozhe da go izmeni. > Normalno mozhe i od nasha strana da bide postaveno baranjeto, nashata > republika da se vika R.o. Makedonia, a grcite da ja preimenuvaat svojata > pokraina vo Juzhna Makedonia i Trakija. Neli ? > > Pozdrav od Ulm > Alex > Makedonija ne e istoriski poznata samo kako teritorija. Makedonija e posebna ekonomsko geografska celina so definirani etnicki karakteristiki i svoja istorija i tradicii. Toa e istoriski fakt, kako sto e i fakt deka istata e rasparcena. Faktot deka vo Grcija postoi t.n. pokraina Makedonija e rezultat na grcata okupacija na juzniot del na Makedonija posle prvata svetska vojna, a ne pokazatel na postoenje na dve ili tri makedonii. Kako dokaz na toa e deka samo nekolku godini porano na grckata oficilna politika ne i bese ni na kraj pamet da istata ja narekuva Makedonija (vo upotreba bese imeto severna Grcija, analogno na Juzna Srbija). Ovi raboti se fakti koi ako nie makedoncite gi zaboravime, togas ne treba da imame nitu kakva bilo drzava (zosto i istata ne ja zasluzuvame). Vo toa e i problemot so Grcija, ne vo nekoi glupi raspravii za nekoe si ime. Imeto ama nisto ne im znaci. Postoenjeto na makedonska drzava e priznavanje na faktot za okupacija na Makedonija od grcka strana i priznavanje na faktot za etnicko cistenje na istata (vo mnogu po surova forma otkolku vo Bosna). , etnicko cistenje koe seuste trae. Ako nie ne istraeme vo nasata borba za zacuvuvanje na imeto i za obelodenuvanje na istoriskata vistina, togas i ne sme ona sto sme. Bube ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 15:32:20 +1100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Todd Mickov Subject: Re: Kompromis(i) Zdravo zivo, E, bi dal milion dolari, (da gi imam) ama da prisustvuvav na tie iscrpni 6 casovni Zenevski razgovori. Kako nevidliv, samo nabljuduvam i slusam sto se diskutira i pazari. Vo sekoj slucaj, za ZNAMETO mislam deka Makedonija navistina ke se najde pod izvonredno golem pritisok da go smeni ili modificira Makedonskoto Sonce koe sepak bilo i treba da ostane simbol na Makedonija. Vprocem, datira uste od vremeto na Phillip II (sto i ne e tolku vazno), potoa zastapeno e vo nasite crkvi i manastiri od damnesni vreminja, eve vo ponovo vreme se pronajdeni tolku mnogu iskopini so Makedonsko sonce vo edna ili druga forma ili oblik, potoa sonceto figurirase na grbot na SR Makedonija (koj sto e seuste oficijalen grb, mislam) i najnakraj sonceto e navistina priroden simbol na nasata topla, svetla i sonceva zemja. Mislam deka nasite pregovaraci mozebi ke podlegnat vo vrska so znameto, iako mislam deka vo princip sonceto od Kutlesh (Vergina) sto e najdeno vo grobot na Filip II ne e isto so ona na makedonskoto zname. Na oficijalnoto makedonsko zname go nema siniot lotusov cvet vo sonceviot disk, taka da ovde moze da se zboruva za principielna razlika. Sekako ova nema da gi zadovoli grcite. Ako voopsto dojde do nekoja inicijativa za nekakvo modificiranje na oficijalnoto zname na Republika Makedonija od strana na vladata, togas mislam deka najpravilno bi bilo istoto prasanje da se resi na referendum ili slicno, so ogled na dubiozniot karakter na noviot parlament. Za USTAVOT. Spored ona sto go citav na a.n.m. Grcija-FOTPOG that is, ima mnogu slicna klauzula vo nivniot ustav, so edinstvena razlika sto tie velat deka ke se grizat za Grcite nadvor od realmot na (H)elenskata Republika. Makedonskiot ustav vo toj pogled e po nedvosmislen, specificno obrakjajkji se na Makedoncite od sosednite zemji. Mene mi e navistina chudno sto dosega nasite pregovaraci nitu ednas ne go pokrenale prasanjeto za krsenjeto na coveckite prava na Makedoncite vo Grcija vo pregovorite. Ako se postavi ova, i se regulira nekako so Grcija, togas clen 49 od Ustavot moze da se modificira slicno na onoj so Grcija, no sekako pod uslov vo pregovorite Grcija da potpise deka go priznava postoenjeto na Makedonskoto malcinstvo vo severna Grcija i deka ke gi pocituva nivnite prava na jazik, kultura, megjusebno organiziranje ... i se sto im pripagja spored megjunarodnite konvencii. Mislam ovie prasanja za Ustavot i coveckite prava se mosne delikatni, poradi krajno polariziranite stavovi i baranja na dvete strani, jas navistina neznam kako makedonskite diplomati ke pregovaraat po ova prasanje. Za NASHETO IME. Istoriskoto, nacionalnoto, ustavnoto i sopstvenoto ime na Republika Makedonija e Republika Makedonija. Jas sum navreden od samite sugestii za izmeneto ime, a kamoli da razmotruvam izmena, dopolnuvanje ili modificiranje na imeto na drzavata, narodot i jazikot. Makedonija kako tatkovina na makedonskiot narod e EDINSTVEN nositel na makedonskata BITnost i edinstveno taa zasluzuva da go nosi toa gordo ime. Nie sme edinstveni reprezentativci na ona zivo makedonsko, ziv zbor, ziv narod, ziva kultura na ovaa planeta. Nemoj da mislite deka ova se izlivi na ekstremen nacionalizam, naprotiv ova se logicni i realni fakti, vo najmala raka blag patriotizam. Zatoa po ova prasanje, ako voopsto ima prasanje, jas mislam NE SMEE DA IMA NIKAKVI kompromisi. No, kako sto gledam pred i za vreme na pregovorite vo Zeneva, Makedonija e pod pritisok da pregovara i vrsi kompromis i za imeto, no Gligorov mislam deka e dovolno svesen prvo kako Makedonec i kako iskusen politicar i diplomat voopsto, da ne popusta na ovie krajno iracionalni grcki baranja, bilo vo uslovi na embargo ili bez embargo, nesto sto toj verojatno i go storil za vreme na tie 6-casovni razgovori vo Palatata na Naciite vo Zeneva. Zatoa za mene site ovie predlozi dosega sto bile i sto ke bidat NE doagjaat vo predvid: Gorna Makedonija, Severna Makedonija, Vardarska Makedonija, Nova Makedonija, Slovenska Makedonija, Slavomakedonija, nitu pak Severna Republika Makedonija, Gorna Republika Makedonija, Vardarska Republika Makedonija, Nova Republika Makedonija, Slovenska Republika Makedonija. So toa sto ne popustame od ustavnoto ime REPUBLIKA MAKEDONIJA, mozebi na kraj ke ne prinudat vo slicna situacija vo koja se naogja Irska, to est Republika Irska ili Irska Republika kako sto ja vika Obedinetoto Kralstvo (Britanija). So ogled na UK's Northern Ireland, Britancite gi narekuvaat Irish Rep. ili Rep. of Ireland vo skratena forma, a ova mislam e zastapeno i vo EU i drugi organi, pa mozebi i vo OON, no ne sum siguren. Vo sekoj slucaj ova dosegasno fantomsko FYROM treba da se otfrli sto pobrgu. Pozdravi od topliot Melbourne, (today, pleasant 23'C) Todd (Todorce) Mickov _______ ____ I I I _____ ==================================== I / \ I I I I Express Yourself, I I I I I I I_____ Don't Repress Yourself !!! I I I I I I I I \____/ I__I__I I_____ (Bedtime Stories - MADONNA) ==================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 00:16:09 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Vanja Josifovski Subject: Re: Kompromis(i) >ovie krajno iracionalni grcki baranja, bilo vo uslovi na embargo ili bez >embargo, nesto sto toj verojatno i go storil za vreme na tie 6-casovni Mislam deka za ova e polesno da ze zbori od ovde, kade sto nema embargo i nezaposlenost a ulicite se cisti. Dodeka naradot vo Makedonija krepi, ce se pregovara, posle ce se popusta. Vanja ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 02:28:47 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List Comments: Cannot convert by in following Received line. Comments: Received: by oldwoman (1.38.193.4/CEANET.2.0.1) id AA15354; Thu, 10 Nov 1994 08:19:58 +0100 From: Zarko Stankovski Subject: Re: Kompromis(i) Tose pisuva: > Za USTAVOT. Spored ona sto go citav na a.n.m. Grcija-FOTPOG that is, ima > mnogu slicna klauzula vo nivniot ustav, so edinstvena razlika sto tie > velat deka ke se grizat za Grcite nadvor od realmot na (H)elenskata > Republika. Makedonskiot ustav vo toj pogled e po nedvosmislen, > specificno obrakjajkji se na Makedoncite od sosednite zemji. Mene mi e > navistina chudno sto dosega nasite pregovaraci nitu ednas ne go > pokrenale prasanjeto za krsenjeto na coveckite prava na Makedoncite > vo Grcija vo pregovorite. Ako se postavi ova, i se regulira nekako so > Grcija, togas clen 49 od Ustavot moze da se modificira slicno na > onoj so Grcija, no sekako pod uslov vo pregovorite Grcija da potpise > deka go priznava postoenjeto na Makedonskoto malcinstvo vo severna > Grcija i deka ke gi pocituva nivnite prava na jazik, kultura, megjusebno > organiziranje ... i se sto im pripagja spored megjunarodnite konvencii. Koga proletoska bev vo Makedonija razgovarav so eden prijatel koj sto e blizok do pregovaracite pa mu go postaviv evidentnoto prasanje za slicniot clen vo grckiot Ustav, zosto moze vo grckiot, a ne vo makedonskiot. Mi rece deka odgovorot na megunarodnite posrednici e deka na dneven red e priznavanjeto na Makedonija i makedonskiot Ustav a ne priznavanjeto na Grcija i grckiot ustav. > Makedonija kako tatkovina na makedonskiot narod e EDINSTVEN nositel na > makedonskata BITnost i edinstveno taa zasluzuva da go nosi toa gordo > ime. Nie sme edinstveni reprezentativci na ona zivo makedonsko, ziv > zbor, ziv narod, ziva kultura na ovaa planeta. Nemoj da mislite deka > ova se izlivi na ekstremen nacionalizam, naprotiv ova se logicni i realni > fakti, vo najmala raka blag patriotizam. Zatoa po ova prasanje, ako > voopsto ima prasanje, jas mislam NE SMEE DA IMA NIKAKVI kompromisi. Vo ovoj paragraf nema ni ekstremen nacionalizam ni fakti tuku gluposti. Izvini, Tose, za grubosta na mojava reakcija, ama taka e. Makedonskoto ime e gordo, a grckoto, turskoto, angliskoto, svajcarskoto, ciganskoto, zulu, indijskoto ili indijanskoto ne se? Ili se malku pomalku gordi? Pozdrav v Zarko ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 02:19:43 +1100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Sacha Shopov Subject: Comments on Recent Progress The MIC report just in comments: > U.S.A.: "TRIPLE FORMULA FOR NAME" > Washington is interested in a quick resolution of the > Macedonian-Greek dispute, whether through compromise which would > be accepted by both sides, or by cutting the Balkan "Gordian [...] > formula" for the name. According to this formula, for the > Macedonians, their state will be called "Republic of Macedonia," > the Greeks will continue calling it like up till now "Republic of > Skopje," while for all other international communications and the > UN, its official name would be "New Republic of Macedonia." ^^^ What is this!? There has never before been a "Republic of Macedonia", so why add a *NEW* label in front to distinguish it from any other. The notion of a 'Republic' and hence even a 'nation' is only a modern one. Every Balkan nation after succeeding from the Ottoman Turkish rule is less than 2 centuries old if we follow that formula, and all should be labelled as such. No double standards please. A little bit of consistency would be nice. Let's rename The Republic of Greece (or is that the Republic of Hellas[?]) and give it a *NEW* prefix to distinguish that. > Seeing that this formula is also not new to it, Skopje and Athens > have already expressed their skepticism, that is, rejection. Most > probably, at the end, the Security Council will get to cut the > Macedonian-Greek knot, the same sources say. Not acceptable. No such compromise. The more I read about this, the more it seems the USA and UN are Macedonia's biggest enemies. Open the northern border (with Serbia) and Greece would no longer have a leg to stand on. sachz -- Sacha A. Shopov Sydney, Australia shopo-sa@eelab.su.oz.au | sshopov@extro.ucc.su.oz.au == All I only want is to Rule the World == ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 17:25:40 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: Delbi + In-Reply-To: <9411091619.AA10322@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija" at Nov 9, 94 02:40:25 pm Zdravo, > Ne gledam zoshto. Zarem treba Britancite da dostavat > baranje do Francija nivnata oblast Bretanja da bide > preimenuvana vo Juzhna Bretanja bidejkji Britancite > ne se soglasuvaat Britanija da se preimenuva vo Severna > Britanija? Do you see my point? > > Pozdrav, > KiRe ViDiMCHe > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - > = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = > = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = > - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Yes I see you point. Vo princip i jas go delam mislenjeto deka imeto ne treba da se menuva, no neznam kolku dolgo mozhe da se zhivee vo Mak. pod vakvi uslovi. Druga rabota e shto oficijalno voopshto ne sme priznaeni kako R.o.M tuku kako F.Y.R.o.M. shto za mene ne e prifatlivo. Nadezh deka sepak kje uspeeme da go zadrzhime imeto i pod toa ime da bideme priznaeni mi dava noviot nachin na glasanje vo evropskata unija, t.e. po pat na mnozinstvo. No, i tuka treba da se vnimava bidejki Grcija vo E.U. si ima svoi drugarchinja. Sekako ekonomski porazvienite drzhavi vo E.U. tendiraat da se na nasha strana, no pri glasanjeto ne se gleda vo dzhebot tuku koj kolku glasa ima. Pozdrav od Alex ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 17:36:18 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: Delbi ++ In-Reply-To: <9411100217.AA28342@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Luben Todorouski" at Nov 9, 94 07:43:25 pm Zdravo, > Makedonija ne e istoriski poznata samo kako teritorija. Makedonija e > posebna ekonomsko geografska celina so definirani etnicki karakteristiki > i svoja istorija i tradicii. Toa e istoriski fakt, kako sto e i fakt deka > istata e rasparcena. Faktot deka vo Grcija postoi t.n. pokraina Makedonija > e rezultat na grcata okupacija na juzniot del na Makedonija posle prvata > svetska vojna, a ne pokazatel na postoenje na dve ili tri makedonii. > Kako dokaz na toa e deka samo nekolku godini porano na grckata oficilna > politika ne i bese ni na kraj pamet da istata ja narekuva Makedonija > (vo upotreba bese imeto severna Grcija, analogno na Juzna Srbija). Znaesh jas vo Makedonija sekogash mislev deka vo grcija samiot zbor Makedonija e diskreditiran. Za oficijalnata politika neznam, no naviknat na faktot deka grcite nekjat da chujat za neshto shto se vika Makedonija, bev kako udren po chelo koga vidov eden grchki turistichki vodich od 1964 ( na germanski jazik ) godina, vo koj oblasta severna Grcija, Grcite ja narekuvaat Makedonija, sosema otvoreno se zboruvashe za severniot del na Grcija narechen Makedonia i Trakia. Ushte poshokiran bev koga vidov edna karta od 1972 godina ( grchka i isto za turisti ) vo koja shto oblasta koja pochnuva vednash severoistochno od Solun i se protega do Olimp se narekuva Makedonia. Toa za mene beshe nezamislivo, bidejki mislev deka Grcite od pred nekolku godini voopshto se setija deka toa ime postoi za da ne diskriminiraat i ponatamu. Deka deneska vo Grcija ( severniot del ) seto toa e drasticno potencirano ( duri ekscesivno ) sekako e tochno i sekako deka toa e so cel da ne sprechat nas vo ostvaruvanjata na nashite istoriski opredelbi itn. > ama nisto ne im znaci. Postoenjeto na makedonska drzava e priznavanje na faktot za okupacija na Makedonija od grcka strana i > priznavanje na faktot za etnicko cistenje na istata (vo mnogu po surova > forma otkolku vo Bosna). , etnicko cistenje koe seuste trae. Ako nie ne > > Bube > Tuka ti davam pravo ! Pozdrav od Alex ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 13:24:36 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List Comments: Cannot convert by in following Received line. Comments: Received: by oldwoman (1.38.193.4/CEANET.2.0.1) id AA15725; Thu, 10 Nov 1994 19:15:29 +0100 From: Zarko Stankovski Subject: za imeto Tuku sto go procitav vo mic tekstot TROJNA FORMULA ZA IMETO : Republika Makedonija, Republika Skopje i Nova Republika Makedonija. Mene ne me sokira. Sporeduvanjeto so francuskata Bretanja i Velika Britanija nema vrska so nasiov problem. Zosto? Zatoa sto i Velika Britanija, ne od isti pricini, ima povece iminja. Nie taka ja vikame, a ja vikame i Anglija. A nejzinoto ime e United Kingdom ... A ne e samo ona drzava so povece iminja, za nadvoresna i vnatresna upotreba. Eve, nasive prijateli grcite, a ne samo oni, i madzarite i avstrijancite i albancite. Eve edna tabela, se izvinuvam za pravopisnite greski, ova go pisuvam na brzina i ne proveruvam: Vnatresno ime Ime za sosedot ime za OON, KEBS ... R Makedonija R Skopje Nova R Makedonija Hellas Grcija Greece Blgarija Bugarija Bulgaria Osteraih Avstrija Austria Magyar (???) Madzarska Hungary Sqiperia Albanija Albania Se povece mi se cini deka problemot ne e samo vo crckata podlost i glupost, tuku i vo nasite frustracii i neizziveanost! v Pozdrav Zarko ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 14:56:21 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: Re: za imeto > Tuku sto go procitav vo mic tekstot TROJNA FORMULA ZA IMETO : > Republika Makedonija, Republika Skopje i Nova Republika Makedonija. > > Mene ne me sokira. Sporeduvanjeto so francuskata Bretanja i > Velika Britanija nema vrska so nasiov problem. Zosto? Zatoa sto i Velika > Britanija, ne od isti pricini, ima povece iminja. Nie taka ja vikame, a > ja vikame i Anglija. A nejzinoto ime e United Kingdom ... A ne e samo > ona drzava so povece iminja, za nadvoresna i vnatresna upotreba. Eve, > nasive prijateli grcite, a ne samo oni, i madzarite i avstrijancite i > albancite. Eve edna tabela, se izvinuvam za pravopisnite greski, ova > go pisuvam na brzina i ne proveruvam: > > Vnatresno ime Ime za sosedot ime za OON, KEBS ... > > R Makedonija R Skopje Nova R Makedonija > Hellas Grcija Greece > Blgarija Bugarija Bulgaria > Osteraih Avstrija Austria > Magyar (???) Madzarska Hungary > Sqiperia Albanija Albania > > Se povece mi se cini deka problemot ne e samo vo crckata podlost i glupost, > tuku i vo nasite frustracii i neizziveanost! > v > Pozdrav Zarko Bi dodal i usste eden primer: Vnatressno ime Ime za sosedot Ime za site drugi JAS TI Zoran Mislam deka onie ssto predlagaat EDEN subjekt da ima POVEKKE iminja raccunaat na gluposta na onie ssto toa treba da go prifatat. Iminjata i se izmisleni za da sluzzat za NADVORESSNA upotreba. Jas znam deka sum Zoran, i jas za sebe "vnatressno" si koristam "JAS". Ako ti sakass da mi se obratiss podobro prassaj kako JAS se identificiram i koristi go toa ime. Mozzess da se deress GLUP, ZAFRKNAT, etc. ama jas nema da ti obrnam vnimanie. Jas najdobro si znam koj sum i mojot identitet e pod moja jurisdikcija. Identitetot na ramnopravni subjekti e odgovornost i pravo na sekoj od subjektite za sebe. Ako dozvoliss drug "ramnopraven" subjekt da ti go prevzeme pravoto da se identifikuvass, togass samiot ja degradirass svojata pozicija vo odnos na nego. Ako se napravi kompromis so imeto, togass kke zasluzzime se ssto potoa kke ne snajde kako nacija koja dozvoluva drugi da i kazzat ssto e i od kade doagja. A toa PRAVOTO postoi i sekoj ssto kke se osmeli da se narecce sebesi intelektualec kke mora da ti go priznae. Svetot i go pravi toa. REPUBLIKA MAKEDONIJA ostanuva i site so barem malku pamet u glavata (ne patriotizam) kke sfatat zossto kke bide taka. Cel inteligenten svet ne poddrzzuva vo toa, i najmalku ssto occekuvav e SEGA Makedonci da poccnuvaat da razmisluvaat deka "i ne e tolku losso" da se smeni imeto. Po glup predlog od TRI iminja nemam ccueno. Od atmosferata na anm ccuvstvuvam deka popribranite Grci vekke se gledaat vo ogledalo i sfakkaat deka nema pogolema glupost od ucenuvanje na druga nacija (demokratija) da si go smeni imeto. Dobivam i e-mail od nekoi, koi se plassat iskreno da go kazzat toa na anm. > Se povece mi se cini deka problemot ne e samo vo crckata podlost i glupost, > tuku i vo nasite frustracii i neizziveanost! Tuka preteruvass i mislam deka se kaess, zossto nema ama bass nikakva ssansa ti da gi znaess moite frustracii, nitu pak stepenot na mojata izzhiveanost. > v > Pozdrav Zarko Cheers, Zoran ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 15:12:08 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: Re: Kompromis(i) Zarko Stankovski pissuva: > Tose pisuva: > > > Makedonija kako tatkovina na makedonskiot narod e EDINSTVEN nositel na > > makedonskata BITnost i edinstveno taa zasluzuva da go nosi toa gordo > > ime. Nie sme edinstveni reprezentativci na ona zivo makedonsko, ziv > > zbor, ziv narod, ziva kultura na ovaa planeta. Nemoj da mislite deka > > ova se izlivi na ekstremen nacionalizam, naprotiv ova se logicni i realni > > fakti, vo najmala raka blag patriotizam. Zatoa po ova prasanje, ako > > voopsto ima prasanje, jas mislam NE SMEE DA IMA NIKAKVI kompromisi. > > Vo ovoj paragraf nema ni ekstremen nacionalizam ni fakti tuku gluposti. > Izvini, Tose, za grubosta na mojava reakcija, ama taka e. Makedonskoto > ime e gordo, a grckoto, turskoto, angliskoto, svajcarskoto, ciganskoto, > zulu, indijskoto ili indijanskoto ne se? Ili se malku pomalku gordi? Ako Makedonskiot jazik, kultura i narod (priznaeni od site svetski organizacii vo svetot) ne se FAKTI tuku gluposti, za tebe, togass se prassuvam od koe prostor-vreme go pissuvass seto ova. Sekoj e gord so svojot identitet, i jas ne gledam trosska glupost vo toa. Za da navistina BIDESS liberalen, prvo treba MNOGU da razmisluvas za ona ssto go pissuvass, a vaka licciss na pateticcen liberal-wannabe. Najlesno e sebesi sekogass da se postaviss na sredina pomegju dve skarani strani, no toa ne te pravi intelektuelec avtomatski. Principite ssto gi imass i tvojata doslednost vo nivno ramnopravno sproveduvanje vo realnosta mnogu povekke kke ti pomognat. > Pozdrav > > v > Zarko Cheers, Zoran ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 14:03:00 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Lubi Uzunovski Organization: CRS Online (Toronto, Ontario) Subject: 6 casa so Kiro in, Message-Id: M Petkovski , writes Subject: 6 casa so Kiro >Dragi Nasi, >Vcera & denes citam vo vestite deka Butros Butros & Kiro razgovarale >6 casa vo Zeneva & deka pregovorite bile mnogu teski & deka ne e >postignat nikakov dogovor. Bas se mislev sto bi mozele ovie dvajca >stari luge da razgovaraat 6 casa : >Mihail Superb question! I yas se mislam za sho zboraia toku vreme. Obviously, Gligorov imashe golem pritisok. Shes saatii, I mean give me a break, the Russians and the Americans don't go that long when they discuss nuclear arsenals. This is absurd. Toa se poznaa so kakvii zboroi izdade ko izlegol od meeting-ot. For example: (from the Reuter article Nov. 7) Gligorov is quoted as saying: "Talks haven't shown any progress so far" This is very terse, and belies his frustration. This is nothing short of an insult for the incompetence of the UN sponsored negotiations. He's starting to get very tired of all this crap. It's time for the UN to get its shit together. Next we have: "The other side should ALSO show goodwill" To me this means: Get off my back and start putting some real pressure on the Greeks! Then there's "The right of our people to confirm its constitutional name in the international comunity MUST be respected..." HINT! NO CAN CHANGE NAME also "Everything ELSE is a subject for negotiations" This is another clear message to Boutros-Ghali that not only does he refuse to negotiate our identity, but that he is no longer willing to even entertain such "proposals" from the UN. Something happened in that meeting that pissed Gligorov right off and made him take a much more inflexible position than is typically his style to do. Furthermore, you can see that he can barely contain his contempt for this whole process. I have never known him to be so transparent in his rhetoric. Way to go, Kiro. It's about f__king time! Lubi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 15:10:42 -0600 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Sasho Kalajdzievski Subject: Re: za imeto In-Reply-To: <9411101844.AA15193@rigel.cc.umanitoba.ca> On Thu, 10 Nov 1994, Zarko Stankovski wrote: > Mene ne me sokira. Sporeduvanjeto so francuskata Bretanja i > Velika Britanija nema vrska so nasiov problem. Zosto? Zatoa sto i Velika > Britanija, ne od isti pricini, ima povece iminja. Nie taka ja vikame, a > ja vikame i Anglija. A nejzinoto ime e United Kingdom ... A ne e samo > ona drzava so povece iminja, za nadvoresna i vnatresna upotreba. Eve, > nasive prijateli grcite, a ne samo oni, i madzarite i avstrijancite i > albancite. Eve edna tabela, se izvinuvam za pravopisnite greski, ova > go pisuvam na brzina i ne proveruvam: > > Vnatresno ime Ime za sosedot ime za OON, KEBS ... > > R Makedonija R Skopje Nova R Makedonija > Hellas Grcija Greece > Blgarija Bugarija Bulgaria > Osteraih Avstrija Austria > Magyar (???) Madzarska Hungary > Sqiperia Albanija Albania Aaaaaa. Tvojata logika malku mi gi podjaduva nervite. Ime za sosedot R Skopje ?? Tie sitni, cinicni dusi, se razbira, moze da ne vikaat kako sakaat, ama da se sankcioniraat nivnite navredi i arhigluposti so nekakov dogovor e teska mizerija. Kakva nova R Makedonija ? Dali zabelezuvas bitna razlika megju Makedonija i drugite primeri na tvojata lista ? Samo N.R.Makedonija i R Skopje nemaat nikakva vrska so istorijata na soodvetnata nacija. Site "Novi" zemji se vo "noviot" svet (New Mexico, Nova Skotia, New England). > Se povece mi se cini deka problemot ne e samo vo crckata podlost i glupost, > tuku i vo nasite frustracii i neizziveanost! Gluposti. > v > Pozdrav Zarko Prelagam da se glasa. :-) Koj e za ? Koj e protiv ? (tuka edna recka od mene) > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 16:35:46 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: predlog Bass zborev so Dani na ANM i dvajcata se prassuvame zossto samo mal del od MakedoNet-eri pissuvaat (i ccitaat?) na ANM (alt.news.macedonia). Prvo bi se zgolemil procentot na pissuvanje na makedonski jazik tamu i barem malce bi se zagussile grccinjava ssto se ccatalat tamu. Mislam deka za nasa politika i za se' drugo mozze da se zbori i na ANM. Istovremeno bi se olesnil tovarot vrz Makedon. Isto taka mislam deka pomalce kke se "grizeme" megjusebno ako imame rezervna "vrekka za udiranje" vo gluposta na grccinjata tamu. Edinstveno ssto ne bi ccinelo vo ovoj predlog bi bila nedostapnosta na ANM za del od MakedoNet-eterite. Kolku od vas nemaat pristap do ANM ? SSto vikaat "gazdite na makedon" za ova? Cheers, Zoran ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 23:46:28 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Igor Petrovski Subject: Re: za imeto In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 10 Nov 1994 21:48:00 +0700." <199411102049.AA08193@kekec.e5.ijs.si> > > Vnatresno ime Ime za sosedot ime za OON, KEBS ... > > R Makedonija R Skopje Nova R Makedonija > Hellas Grcija Greece > Blgarija Bugarija Bulgaria > Osteraih Avstrija Austria > Magyar (???) Madzarska Hungary > Sqiperia Albanija Albania > > Se povece mi se cini deka problemot ne e samo vo crckata podlost i glupost, > tuku i vo nasite frustracii i neizziveanost! > v > Pozdrav Zarko v Zarko, mi se cini deka mesas lingvistika/kultura so politika. Tvoite primeri se kako nekoi drzavi se vikaat vo razlicni jazici/kulturi - Grcija se vika Greece mesto Hellas vo celiot anglofonski svet, i toa nema vrska so politikata. Ekvivalentno na toa bi bilo: Republika Makedonia Vnatresno ime Ime za sosedot ime za OON, KEBS Rep. Makedonija (kako veke Makedonija se Republic of Macedonia pishuva na Albanski, Grcki ...) Mozeme da diskutirame dali Makedonija treba da go smeni imeto (jas lichno mislam ne, ama shto reche Vanja, toa povekje imaat pravo da go kazhat tie so se sega vo Makedonija), ama tesko ke me ubedish deka: Hellas : Grcija : Greece = Makedonija : Skopje : Bivsa-Severna-Nova-Jugo-Slovenska (ili kako veke e predlogot za novo ime ovie dena :) Makedonija. Igor. -- Microsoft is not the answer. Microsoft is the question. NO is the answer. Big Nose Sucks. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 00:17:29 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Igor Petrovski Subject: Re: Kompromis(i) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 10 Nov 1994 08:34:00 +0700." <199411100735.AA01776@kekec.e5.ijs.si> v Zarko veli: > Tose pisuva: > > > Makedonija kako tatkovina na makedonskiot narod e EDINSTVEN nositel na > > makedonskata BITnost i edinstveno taa zasluzuva da go nosi toa gordo > > ime. Nie sme edinstveni reprezentativci na ona zivo makedonsko, ziv > > zbor, ziv narod, ziva kultura na ovaa planeta. Nemoj da mislite deka > > ova se izlivi na ekstremen nacionalizam, naprotiv ova se logicni i realni > > fakti, vo najmala raka blag patriotizam. Zatoa po ova prasanje, ako > > voopsto ima prasanje, jas mislam NE SMEE DA IMA NIKAKVI kompromisi. > > Vo ovoj paragraf nema ni ekstremen nacionalizam ni fakti tuku gluposti. > Izvini, Tose, za grubosta na mojava reakcija, ama taka e. Makedonskoto > ime e gordo, a grckoto, turskoto, angliskoto, svajcarskoto, ciganskoto, > zulu, indijskoto ili indijanskoto ne se? Ili se malku pomalku gordi? Sto se tuka gluposti???? Kaj Tose napisal deke Makedonskoto ime (ili bilo shto drugo) e po-/naj- gordo/bilo-sto od drugite? Mozhe celiot pasos zvuci malce patetichno ama ne gledam shto e tuka glupavo? Ili zboris za ona "edinstveno taa zasluzuva da go nosi toa gordo ime.". Samo ni tuka ne gledam nishto chudno vo toa shto drzhavata na Makedonskiot narod treba da se vika Makedonija - i edinstveno taa ima pravo taka da se vika. Neli ima neshto kako pravo na prviot: Makedonija e prva drzhava so toa ime - sledstveno niedna druga drzhava nema pravo taka da se vika. A ako Grcite sakaat da imaat 38 pokraini shto se vikaat taka, toa e nivna (interna) rabota. Igor. -- Microsoft is not the answer. Microsoft is the question. NO is the answer. Big Nose Sucks. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 18:51:40 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Muzika + Ste slushale li nekoi od americhkite grupi koi shto peat makedonski i drugi balkanski pasmi; Kitka, Zhena, Orbestra (CD "Transdanubian Swine Heard Music")? Tuka vo Kalifornija se dosta popularni vo odredeni krugovi. Isto mozhe da se slushne originalna makedonska narodna muzika na programite za megunarodna muzika na public stations" koi se povrzani so NPR i Pacifica Radio (Vo L.A. KPFK, KCRW, KPCC). Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 11:06:26 +1100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Sacha Shopov Subject: 6 hours report Here's what the Greek COSMOS (ANA) wrote: Six hours with Gligorov at UN leads to no progress -------------------------------------------------- GENEVA 08/11/1994 UN Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali yesterday met with Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) President Kiro Gligorov and UN mediator Cyrus Vance to discuss a solution to the dispute between FYROM and Greece. Mr. Boutros-Ghali said afterwards that the six-hour talks had resulted in "no progress". He said he would wait for the meeting with the Greek side in New York "when we will be in a position to see what the development of the situation will be." Greece says Skopje's use of the name 'Macedonia' implies territorial ambitions over Greece's northern province of the same name and has imposed a trade embargo on the republic. Other points of contention are FYROM's use of an ancient Greek symbol for its flag and the preamble in its constitution. Gligorov's re-election in elections recently -- the reason for the intermission in UN-sponsored talks with Athens -- led to hopes that FYROM would adopt a more flexible negotiating position. Mr. Boutros-Ghali said Mr. Vance would report to the Greeks in the next few days about negotiations and he himself would report to the Security Council. He refused to go into detail about the negotiations or comment on whether any new proposals had been made. Meanwhile, diplomatic sources in Geneva confirmed the sighting of FYROM documents in New York with a new symbol composed of two suns, one inside the other. Both have rays but have nothing to do with the Greek symbol of the Star of Vergina. Belgrade's Tanjug news agency quoted "well-informed sources in Geneva" saying President Gligorov and his Foreign Minister Stevo Crvenkovski virtually abandoned the talks at the UN, visibly dissatisfied with the course of the talks, the ANA reported. Gligorov adamant name not negotiable ------------------------------------ SKOPJE 08/11/1994 On his return from Geneva, President Kiro Gligorov said everything was subject to negotiations except the name of his country. In a statement to state television, Mr. Gligorov said he had expressed to Messrs. Vance and Boutros-Ghali his country's desire "to have its constitutional name established internationally". -- Sacha A. Shopov Sydney, Australia shopo-sa@eelab.su.oz.au | sshopov@extro.ucc.su.oz.au == All I only want is to Rule the World == ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 19:14:42 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: za imeto RE: Zatoa sto i Velika > Britanija, ne od isti pricini, ima povece iminja. Nie taka ja vikame, a > ja vikame i Anglija. A nejzinoto ime e United Kingdom REPLY: Se vika United Kingdom zatoa shto e zaednica ne nekolku oddelni geografski i nacionalni edinici, England(Anglichani, Britons (neshto so istorija?), Shkoti/Shkotska, Irci/Irska, itn. Ne mi e poznato da vo Makedonija imame takva "federacija" i oddelni geografski/nacionalni edinici. Vtoro, razlikite vo iminjata na drugite zemji pretezhno se povrzani so jazichni/lingvistichki promeni, eg. Blgarija Bugarija Bulgaria > Osteraih Avstrija Austria, kako luge od druga jazichna grupa gi narekle ovie drzhavi/nacii zashto ne mozhele da go izgovorat originalot. Voedno, drugi pak se nadimci koi shto drugite narodi im gi dale, kako na primer Slovenite gi narekle Germancite - Nemci=nemi luge, koi shto ne znaat da zboruvat (slovenski jazik vo ovol sluchaj). Iminjata koi shto Grcite sakaat nam da ni gi dadat ne podpagaat pod ni edna od ovie grupi/pravila koi shto jas gi navedov. Ne se zboruva za jazichna mutacija, ne sme federacija, nitu pak e nekoe pred-istorisko ime. Predlozite za Makedonija se ednostavno veshtachki izmislotini. Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 21:29:44 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Boris Soposki Subject: Re: predlog >Bass zborev so Dani na ANM i dvajcata se prassuvame zossto samo mal del >od MakedoNet-eri pissuvaat (i ccitaat?) na ANM (alt.news.macedonia). >Prvo bi se zgolemil procentot na pissuvanje na makedonski jazik tamu i >barem malce bi se zagussile grccinjava ssto se ccatalat tamu. >Mislam deka za nasa politika i za se' drugo mozze da se zbori i na ANM. >Istovremeno bi se olesnil tovarot vrz Makedon. >Isto taka mislam deka pomalce kke se "grizeme" megjusebno ako imame >rezervna "vrekka za udiranje" vo gluposta na grccinjata tamu. >Edinstveno ssto ne bi ccinelo vo ovoj predlog bi bila nedostapnosta na >ANM za del od MakedoNet-eterite. Kolku od vas nemaat pristap do ANM ? >SSto vikaat "gazdite na makedon" za ova? >Cheers, >Zoran >;^) Jas potpolno se slagam so tebe Zoran. Ako grupava se vika ANM, sto baraat Grcive tamu? Prosta pricina, nema dovolno Makedonci na nea. Zamislete si ja duri i nivnata drskost, Grcive si pracaat nivnata verzija na Maknews koja se vika Cosmos mail na nesto sto bi trebalo da bide makedonska grupa. I sto se slucuva na grupava? Slavko, Zoran, Dani, Sachz i uste dva trojca se raspravame so Grcive na celo so Harry i Valkan do beskonecnosti mesto grupata da bide za Makedonci na Makedonski. Ako ima 120+ pretplatnici na Makedon mene me interesira kade ste? Pozdravi Boris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 20:42:35 CST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Luben Todorouski Subject: Re: predlog In-Reply-To: <199411102143.PAA33990@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>; from "Zoran Mitrovski" at Nov 10, 94 4:35 pm > > Bass zborev so Dani na ANM i dvajcata se prassuvame zossto samo mal del > od MakedoNet-eri pissuvaat (i ccitaat?) na ANM (alt.news.macedonia). > Prvo bi se zgolemil procentot na pissuvanje na makedonski jazik tamu i > barem malce bi se zagussile grccinjava ssto se ccatalat tamu. > Mislam deka za nasa politika i za se' drugo mozze da se zbori i na ANM. > Istovremeno bi se olesnil tovarot vrz Makedon. > Isto taka mislam deka pomalce kke se "grizeme" megjusebno ako imame > rezervna "vrekka za udiranje" vo gluposta na grccinjata tamu. > Edinstveno ssto ne bi ccinelo vo ovoj predlog bi bila nedostapnosta na > ANM za del od MakedoNet-eterite. Kolku od vas nemaat pristap do ANM ? > SSto vikaat "gazdite na makedon" za ova? > > Cheers, > Zoran > ;^) > Please give us more information how to subscribe to ANM. Bube ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 20:54:16 CST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Luben Todorouski Subject: Re: Kompromis(i) In-Reply-To: <199411100524.XAA91787@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>; from "Vanja Josifovski" at Nov 10, 94 12:16 am > > Mislam deka za ova e polesno da ze zbori od ovde, kade sto nema embargo i > nezaposlenost a ulicite se cisti. Dodeka naradot vo Makedonija krepi, ce se > pregovara, posle ce se popusta. > > Vanja > Toa deka narodot krepi vo Makedonija ne e rezultat samo na grckoto embargo. Ima mnogu drugi faktori koi sto mnogu poveke vlijaat na nezavidnata ekonomska sostojba. A ne bi rekol deka bas nesto se ima napraveno da efektite od blokadata bidat ublazeni (mislam za gradba na alternativni pravci), nitu gledam deka vladata toa go stava kako prioritet. Inaku tie alternatovni pravci i pri uslovi na idealni odnosi so Atina se od primaren interes za MK. Drzava ne se dobiva lesno. Treba da bideme srekni so faktot deka kako problem go imame embargoto so Grcija, a ne vojna kako na primer Bosna. Mnogu nacii vo slicni situacii izleguvaat kako pojaki i podobro organizirani, sto ne moze da se kaze i so Makedonija koja celata svoja ekonomska programa ja bazira na nadezi za nadvoresna pomos. Da mi izvinite ama toa po narodski se vika prosenje. Bube ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 15:57:57 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Daniel Veljanovski Subject: Re: Muzika + In-Reply-To: <199411091133.GAA01426@hertz.njit.edu> On Wed, 9 Nov 1994, Aleksandar Aleksov wrote: > Zdravo, > > > > Super taste. Samo da gi dodadam Deep Forest, Enya i Clanad > > > > Za Deep Forest i Clanad prv pat slusham, no, Enya - great! > > Istoto vazhi i za mene, hey Daniel send us some info about it ! > Enya e vo sekoj sluchaj top !! E pa vaka. Najdobra pesna na Deep Forest e "Sweet Lulliby" ama celot album e fantasticen (so koi debitiraat). Vo nivnata muzika preovladuva, folkot, stilot, i muzika na Pigmeite i drugi Africanski pleminja od Senegal, Togo i Zair, no mnogu poveke lici na zvuk od Indija. Isprepleti gi nezniot glas na zenskata, so tivkiot a i silen sintisizer, i ke dobies edna mnogu relaksiracka muzika. Ako imas prilika, deffinitivno, go preporacuvam Clanad se od Irska ili Skotska. Mnogu mnogu slicna muzika so Enya, vprocem Enya i e rodnina nekoj vid na pejackata od Clanad. Koga veke tio se sviga Enya Alex, togas 100% ke ti se svigaat i Clanad. > > > How about Paul Simon/Art Garfunkel, David Bowie, Sting, > > The Police, Elvis Presley, ponatamu jazz-erite kako > > Chick Korea, John Patittuchi (vaka li se spell-uva?) i > > ________ (ne se sekjavam na imeto)? > > > Paul Simon/Art Garfunkel se O.K. imaat nekoi stvarno odlichni pesni. Bridge over Troubled Water is the best for me. > Dawid Bowie e klasa, no ne mi se dopagja se shto pravi ( na muzichki plan > mislam ). Clasa e a i toa sto go pravi na muzicki plan mi se sviga. Sto mislis za Peter Gabriel, ili pak Talking Heads? > Sting and The Police se super. Mene barem mnogu mi se dopagjaat, posebno > Sting bidejki so The Police ne sum dovolno zapoznaen. Isto i ovde, mada i Sting a posebno Police mi stanuvaat mnogu dosandi. > No, not Elvis, not Elvis help ! Mozhebi reakcijava e molku preterana, no > definitivno ne ( Elvis is dead ( can dance ? )) > YES Well, I guess Elvis cant anymore.... > Pozdravi od Ulm > Alex > Od kade si Alex? Od Skopje mozebi? Kade savrsi sredno? Pozdravi od New Jersey Daniel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 15:40:12 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Daniel Veljanovski Subject: Re: za imeto In-Reply-To: <199411101903.OAA25926@hertz.njit.edu> On Thu, 10 Nov 1994, Zarko Stankovski wrote: > Tuku sto go procitav vo mic tekstot TROJNA FORMULA ZA IMETO : > Republika Makedonija, Republika Skopje i Nova Republika Makedonija. > > Mene ne me sokira. Sporeduvanjeto so francuskata Bretanja i > Velika Britanija nema vrska so nasiov problem. Zosto? Zatoa sto i Velika > Britanija, ne od isti pricini, ima povece iminja. Nie taka ja vikame, a > ja vikame i Anglija. A nejzinoto ime e United Kingdom ... A ne e samo Edinstveniot problem sto go gledam tuka Zarko, e vo toa sto vo UK sekogas ke ostanat England, Scotland so tie iminja. GB ili UK e samo nadvoresen factor za ovaa unija. Ako pak se raspadne, ke ostanat Eng and Sco so tiee iminja. Makedonija od druga strana treba da se gleda kako edinka zaedno so Eng or Sco i poradi toa ne moze da ima drugo ime sto vazi i za Anglija. Toa bi se slucilo i so sekoja druga evropska zemja na pr. ako se obedinat ili raspadnat od toa obidinuvanje Finland and Sweden, tie zasekogas ke ostanat Finland and Sweden. > ona drzava so povece iminja, za nadvoresna i vnatresna upotreba. Eve, > nasive prijateli grcite, a ne samo oni, i madzarite i avstrijancite i > albancite. Eve edna tabela, se izvinuvam za pravopisnite greski, ova > go pisuvam na brzina i ne proveruvam: > > Vnatresno ime Ime za sosedot ime za OON, KEBS ... > > R Makedonija R Skopje Nova R Makedonija > Hellas Grcija Greece > Blgarija Bugarija Bulgaria > Osteraih Avstrija Austria > Magyar (???) Madzarska Hungary > Sqiperia Albanija Albania > Zabelezi, sekade postojat razliki vo svetov ama edna Bugarija ke ostane Bulgaria, Avstrija Austria, Deutschland - Germany, no site tie imaat nekoj link megu niv. Ne veruvam deka bi mozel da ja vikam Bugarija - R.Sofija ili Germanija R.Berlin. Od ista gledna tocka, ne mozam i da gi vikam New Bulgaria ili New Germany. Sto i da se slucuva so nivnata istorija i menuvanje granici, imeto si ostanuva. Zatoa Ako treba da gledame na ovoj nacin togas za nas doaga samo ova Makedonija I dont care Macedonia stom ne me priznava > Se povece mi se cini deka problemot ne e samo vo crckata podlost i glupost, > tuku i vo nasite frustracii i neizziveanost! > v > Pozdrav Zarko > Ne se slozuvam so toa. Ziveeme vo svet vo koj INTERESOT rulls. Sega, dali bi USA i EU rizikuvale odnosi (tolku mogu bitni za NIV) so Grcija, samo da ja priznaat malata landlocked Makedonija od koja ne bi ni imale taka golema korist? Za zal situacijata e takva i se nadevam a i veruvam deka ke se skrsi eden den, ama Makedonija za taa situacija, sigurno ne e vinovna. Pozdrav Daniel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 15:11:00 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Daniel Veljanovski Subject: Re: Kompromis(i) In-Reply-To: <199411100434.XAA29204@hertz.njit.edu> On Thu, 10 Nov 1994, Todd Mickov wrote: > Zdravo zivo, > > Za USTAVOT. Spored ona sto go citav na a.n.m. Grcija-FOTPOG that is, ima > mnogu slicna klauzula vo nivniot ustav, so edinstvena razlika sto tie > velat deka ke se grizat za Grcite nadvor od realmot na (H)elenskata > Republika. Makedonskiot ustav vo toj pogled e po nedvosmislen, > specificno obrakjajkji se na Makedoncite od sosednite zemji. Mene mi e > navistina chudno sto dosega nasite pregovaraci nitu ednas ne go > pokrenale prasanjeto za krsenjeto na coveckite prava na Makedoncite > vo Grcija vo pregovorite. Se vo svoe vreme Tose. Jas sum siguren deka se ceka samo na oficijaloto priznavaje. Ne mozeme da skokame i da kazeme - eve ima Makedonci vo Grcija (toa patem receno moze da se dokaze so million facti), koga sudbinata ni zavisi od gornite. I togas Grcite bi rekle - ete sakaat da ja zemat Egejska Makedonija, iridentisti, i mozat do go iskoristat samo kako oruzje protiv nas. Mora da se ceka i igra mudro, a stom ke se dobie zeleno svetlo, siguren sum deka prasaneto za Makedoncite vo Grcija ke pokrenato od Makedonija i prestaveno pred svetskata javnost. Makedoncite ne smeaat da ja izgubat i poslednata slamka na koja visat. > Ako se postavi ova, i se regulira nekako so > Grcija, togas clen 49 od Ustavot moze da se modificira slicno na > onoj so Grcija, no sekako pod uslov vo pregovorite Grcija da potpise > deka go priznava postoenjeto na Makedonskoto malcinstvo vo severna > Grcija i deka ke gi pocituva nivnite prava na jazik, kultura, megjusebno > organiziranje ... i se sto im pripagja spored megjunarodnite konvencii. > > Mislam ovie prasanja za Ustavot i coveckite prava se mosne delikatni, > poradi krajno polariziranite stavovi i baranja na dvete strani, jas > navistina neznam kako makedonskite diplomati ke pregovaraat po ova prasanje. > > Za NASHETO IME. Istoriskoto, nacionalnoto, ustavnoto i sopstvenoto ime > na Republika Makedonija e Republika Makedonija. Jas sum > navreden od samite sugestii za izmeneto ime, a kamoli da > razmotruvam izmena, dopolnuvanje ili modificiranje na > imeto na drzavata, narodot i jazikot. > > Makedonija kako tatkovina na makedonskiot narod e EDINSTVEN nositel na > makedonskata BITnost i edinstveno taa zasluzuva da go nosi toa gordo > ime. Nie sme edinstveni reprezentativci na ona zivo makedonsko, ziv > zbor, ziv narod, ziva kultura na ovaa planeta. Nemoj da mislite deka > ova se izlivi na ekstremen nacionalizam, naprotiv ova se logicni i realni > fakti, vo najmala raka blag patriotizam. Zatoa po ova prasanje, ako > voopsto ima prasanje, jas mislam NE SMEE DA IMA NIKAKVI kompromisi. > > No, kako sto gledam pred i za vreme na pregovorite vo Zeneva, > Makedonija e pod pritisok da pregovara i vrsi kompromis > i za imeto, no Gligorov mislam deka e dovolno svesen prvo kako > Makedonec i kako iskusen politicar i diplomat voopsto, da ne popusta na > ovie krajno iracionalni grcki baranja, bilo vo uslovi na embargo ili bez > embargo, nesto sto toj verojatno i go storil za vreme na tie 6-casovni > razgovori vo Palatata na Naciite vo Zeneva. > > Zatoa za mene site ovie predlozi dosega sto bile i sto ke bidat NE doagjaat > vo predvid: > > Gorna Makedonija, > Severna Makedonija, > Vardarska Makedonija, > Nova Makedonija, > Slovenska Makedonija, > Slavomakedonija, nitu pak > > Severna Republika Makedonija, > Gorna Republika Makedonija, > Vardarska Republika Makedonija, > Nova Republika Makedonija, > Slovenska Republika Makedonija. > > So toa sto ne popustame od ustavnoto ime REPUBLIKA MAKEDONIJA, mozebi na > kraj ke ne prinudat vo slicna situacija vo koja se naogja Irska, to est > Republika Irska ili Irska Republika kako sto ja vika Obedinetoto > Kralstvo (Britanija). So ogled na UK's Northern Ireland, Britancite gi > narekuvaat Irish Rep. ili Rep. of Ireland vo skratena forma, a ova > mislam e zastapeno i vo EU i drugi organi, pa mozebi i vo OON, no ne sum > siguren. > > Vo sekoj slucaj ova dosegasno fantomsko FYROM treba da se otfrli sto pobrgu. APLAUS. Sosema se soglasuvam. > Pozdravi od topliot Melbourne, (today, pleasant 23'C) > Todd (Todorce) Mickov Pozdravi od veke ladniot New Jersey > _______ ____ I I I _____ ==================================== > I / \ I I I I Express Yourself, > I I I I I I I_____ Don't Repress Yourself !!! > I I I I I I I > I \____/ I__I__I I_____ (Bedtime Stories - MADONNA) > ==================================== Daniel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 16:19:37 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Daniel Veljanovski Subject: Re: Muzika In-Reply-To: <199411082046.PAA15763@hertz.njit.edu> On Tue, 8 Nov 1994, Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija wrote: > Daniel reche: > > > > - Three Imaginary Boys (aka Boys don't cry) > > > - Seventeen seconds > > Dobari > > "Head on the door" isto. > > Dobar. Ama tie pogore se podobri. :) Kako ti se sviga "Push"? > > > - Disintegration > > Dobar "Kiss, kiss, kiss" isto > > Eh da. Kako samo mozhev da go zaboravam. Najdobra pesna od > Kiss x 3: > > Just like heaven > > "Show me how you do that trick > the one that makes me scream" she said > "The one that makes me laugh" she said > And threw her arms around my neck > "Show me how you do it > and i promise you i promise that > I'll run away with you > I'll run away with you" > > spinning on that dizzy edge > I kissed her face and kissed her head > and dreamed of all the different ways I had > to make her glow > "Why are you so far away?" she said > "Why won't you ever know that I'm in love with you > That i'm in love with you" > > You > soft and only > You > lost and lonely > You > strange as angels > dancing in the deepest oceans > twisting in the water > You're just like a dream > > Daylight licked me into shape > I must have been asleep for days > and moving lips to breathe her name > I opened up my eyes > and found myself alone alone > alone above a raging sea > that stole the only girl I loved > and drowned her deep inside of me > > You > Soft and only > You > Lost and lonely > You > Just like heaven De bre Kire, sto li samo napravis?? A samo go spomnav Kiss kiss kiss Dobar Vkus vo sekoj slucaj... > > > > - Wish > > Sucked. Too comertial and dissapointing. > > Istoto go pomisliv i jas koga pochna da se prodava. > No, go kupiv, preslushav i zakluchiv deka e genijalen. > Ako tvoeto mislenje si go izgradil vrz baza na onie > "hitovi" shto se vrtea na MTV (Friday, I'm in love - sux!, > High - bljak) brishi gi predrasudite i chuj gi ostanatite pesni > (From the edge of the deep green sea, Open, Wendy time, > Doing the unstuck, End...). A ako si gi chul i niv... no problem, > tvoe mislenje i tvoj vkus. :) Pomisliv na toa na samiot pocetok stom go kupiv albumot. Barav da gi najdam starite Cure wo ostanatite pesni, ama toa ne bese toa. Sepak Open and End bee dobri. Me iznervira i izjavata na Robert togas koga na NY radio zboruvase zamo za sebe vo prisustvo na drugite i kako da gi prepisa site uspesi samo na sebesi. > > > > 5. DCD - odlichno > > Ne gi znam > > Dead Can Dance? E take de. A ne DCD. Otsekogas sum gi staval so Cristian Death, odat dobro zaedno. > > > 8. Front 242 - ne > > Zosto be Kire? Dobri se. Headhunter, ja znaes? > > Ne? Mnogu silen techno/industrial beat. Eve veke 2 godini po red ja otekuvaat po dupkite vo New York. > > > > The Smiths, > > MY FAVORITE. #1 of ALL TIMES. Morrissey is a dick as solo, however. > > Gi imam site CD's i zalam sto se raspadnaa. > > Lichno (ne me mavaj :), ne gledam nekoja razlika pomegju > The Smiths i Morrissey - ista muzika, isti tekstovi... > Edinstveno shto me iznervira beshe izjavata na Morrissey, > vo koja veli deka 50% od ona shto go rabotel so grupata > The Smiths bilo prvoklasen shit?!?! Morrissey ne go cenam zosto ima samo dobar text i toa e se. Muzikata vo Smiths bese pisuvana of Johny Maar, a sega pak mu ja pisuvaat drugi. Cenam koga nekoj musicar ke napise i muzika i text zaedno (posebno muzika). Morrissey mnogu pati istapuval kako "god" vo Smiths, no da ne se zaboravi... bez fantasticniot ritam na Maar, duri i negovata lirika nemase da uspee. U stvari ima tolku mnogu dobri liricari na svetov ama ne mozat da se probijat zosto ne znaat da komponiraat muzica a se falat. Morrissy e eden od niv. > > > Simple Minds, > > Super se. > > Nekoi velat za niv deka se edinstvenite koi ostanaa dosledni > na stilot - prashanje e dali e toa kvalitet ili...? Se nadevam kvalitet. > > > Imam ton CD's doma pretezno alternative, gothic, industrial, pank etc.. > > Ne podnesuvam heavy metal (Bon Jovi G&R), Rap, club, pop, i prestavnici > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Yes! > > > na 'noviot' (corny za mene) mainstream vo usa kako Pearl Jam. > > Pearl Jam - no? WHY? Fantastichni se! A REM? Aaaaa Neee. Perl Jem, Soundgarden, se prcevi. Nivnata musica nema ni tronka kvalitet priblizen na Smiths Cure DM U2 etc od 80's a i 90's Blur, James, Charlatans UK etc. Na America im trebase industrija. Vidoa deka gubat od Evropa na "cool music" pa pochaa, da gi Forsiraat svoite. Se sekavam koga Pearl Jem se pojavija, stanicata of NY sto pusta cool music (WDRE e edinstvena za zal) i slusatelite nemozeaa da gi smislat. Site drugi mainstream gi otekuvaa. E pa na America im trebase decada da izlezat of toj Heavi Metal kosmar. > Pozdrav, > KiRe ViDiMCHe Vidimce hmm, dali imas nesto so Ohridsko? a mozebi i se lazam... Aj na zdravje, Daniel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 22:46:16 CST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: "Ognen G. Zografski" Subject: Re: Muzika + Zoya pishuva: >Ste slushale li nekoi od americhkite grupi koi shto peat makedonski i drugi >balkanski pasmi; Kitka, Zhena, Orbestra (CD "Transdanubian Swine Heard >Music")? Tuka vo Kalifornija se dosta popularni vo odredeni krugovi. Isto >mozhe da se slushne originalna makedonska narodna muzika na programite za >megunarodna muzika na public stations" koi se povrzani so NPR i Pacifica >Radio (Vo L.A. KPFK, KCRW, KPCC). > >Zoya Ne, ne sum ccul nissto za niv, niti za "odredeni krugovi" vo koi se dosta popularni... Mozze li nessto povekke da se doznae za ova, please? Pozdrav, Ogi Mississippi State University ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 23:11:44 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Mediumi vo RM Mihail reche: > Dragi Nasi, > > Vcera & denes citam vo vestite deka Butros Butros & Kiro > razgovarale 6 casa vo Zeneva & deka pregovorite bile mnogu teski > & deka ne e postignat nikakov dogovor. Bas se mislev sto bi mozele > ovie dvajca stari luge da razgovaraat 6 casa : Ova i ne e tolku strashno, ako se znae deka makedonskite mediumi ne prenesoa NISHTO od sredbata, osven izjavite na Kiro Gligorov, dadeni vednash posle sredbata. Vistinskiot problem e deka najgolemiot del od rabotite primorani sme da gi doznavame od stranski agencii i toa najmnogu od grchkiot pechat, a neshto pristiga i od nashiot ni severen sosed i negovata drzhavna agencija - Tanjug. Znam deka sme mlada drzhava, deka tek treba da se konstituirame, vkluchuvajkji gi i nashite vitalni organi, institucii, agencii itn, no, zarem mozheme da prekjutime na ochevidnata mediumska BLOKADA na informacii za vnatreshnata i nadvoreshnata politika? Ne znam dali ovaa BLOKADA se dolzhi na nekakva si rezhimska politika, ili pak ednostavno nesposobnost na nashite novinari - ednostavno, NE me interesira! Nashite novinari, ochigledno se isprateni vo stranstvo da se shetkaat i da gi troshat dnevnicite i visokite (vo sporedba so ona shto go imaat vo .mk) plati, a nivniot "profesionalizam" se sveduva na chitanje na stranski pechat i prenesuvanje na sodrzhinite na tekstovite objaveni vo istite. Kako inaku da se protolkuva postojanoto bombardiranje so natpisi, koi skoro po pravilo se objavuvaat na naslovnata strana na dnevnikot "Nova Makedonija", od nashite novinari vo Grcija, i koi edinstveno shto znaat e da prenesat deka "Ta nea objavi....", ili "Elefterotipija zakluchuva...". Koja e nivnata cel, ne znam i ne sakam da shpekuliram, ama posledicite se ochigledni. Ili pak da ne govorime za onie novinari koi so svojata "naporna rabota" iskamchuvaat duri i po par izvesthai vo mesecot. Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 02:08:15 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Muzika + RE: Ne, ne sum ccul nissto za niv, niti za "odredeni krugovi" vo koi se dosta popularni... Mozze li nessto povekke da se doznae za ova, please? Pozdrav, Ogi Mississippi State University REPLY: Za grupite li, ili za krugovite? Za grupite mozham, da ti dadam tochna informacija, ama ke treba da poglednam na discovite. Mozhesh da gi pobarash vo katalozite vo golemi muzichki prodavnici. Orbestra (the CD "Transdanubian Swine Heard Music") jas ja kupiv od Tower Records (ne znam da ne se samo vo California) i ima dve makedonski pesmi, a Kitka isto mi se chini e na CD. Mene edna drugarka mi ja dade na kaseta. Sestra mi ima neshto od Zhena, ke ja prasham shto tochno, ako sakash. Za krugovite, pretezhno intelektualci, new age-ish, zainteresirani vo umetnosti i se smetaat relativno liberalni. KCRW a edna od najgolemite "public" radio stanici vo USA, i ima iljadnici slushateli vo Los Angeles oblasta. Pacifica e naj-liberalnata sluzhba za vesti i ima stanici nasekade vo L.A. e KPFK). Taa i NPR (National Public Radio) se glavnite izvori za iscrpni vesti i analizi vo Amerika, KAKO SHTO ZNAM JAS. Vo 1992, dodeka nie vo L.A. demonstriravme pred Federal Building za Makedonija, na KPFK Esma peeshe (ne znam dali namerno ili sluchajno i shto e simbolikata, no sakam da kazham, makedonska pesma se slusha vo Los Angeles ponekogash). Znaesh, od koga Kate Bush go stavi Bugarskiot Nacionalen Hor na nejzinata plocha, muzika od site kraevi na Istochna Evropa stana popularna. Koga Nacionalniot hor gostuva vo Los Angeles, stalno e rasprodaden. Vo Santa Barbara i vo Mondecino ima festivali na Balkanska muzika sekoe leto. Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 02:14:02 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Kompromis(i) Fakt e da site mediumi pishuvaat za toj chlen na makedonskiot ustav, no nikoj ne se potrudil da tochno go prevede/navede toa shto e napishano vo ustavot i kako stoi. Inaku, bi se videlo deka ustavot ne vika deka Makedonija ke gi osloboduva svoite luge vo stranstvo, ili bilo shto vo taa smisla, tuku (kolku shto jas imam prochiotano vo maloto ustavche koe go imam) deka Makedonija "ke se grizhi za" makedoncite vo stranstvo. Mi se chini deka sekoja drzhava "se grizhi" za svoite luge vo stranstvo i se zalaga za nivnite prava. Bi trebalo nekoj od nas da izvrshi sporedbena analiza na megunarodno nivo i da se vidi shto i kako site drugi drzhavi koi se odamna priznaeni tvrdat za pravata na svoite luge. Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 02:40:12 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Kompromis(i) RE: Ne gledam kako bi mozhelo 'Severna' da odgovora? Za da ima Severna, treba da ima i Juzhna. Dali toa znachi deka koj znae po koj pat, Makedoncite kje bidat podeleni, a ovoj pat na najnizok nachin - Severnomakedonci i Juzhnomakedonci? REPLY: Od druga strana, pak, pod Severna Makedonija se podrazbira deka postoi i Juzhna Makedonija i deka, sleduva, Makedonija e podelena. A shto e podeleno, se stremi kon soedinuvanje. Severna i Juzhna Korea, Zapadna i Istochna Germanija, it. Edinstveno ne mi e jasno dali idejata e sever da se prisoedini kon jug, ili jug da se prisoedini kon sever. Bi mozhelo isto da se kazhe deka samo "Makedonija" bi znachelo deka samo toa e Makedonija, i nema nikakvi drugi delovi. Ova se ne go velam za da propagiram nekoe reshenie, tuku samo improvizacii na tema. Jas lichno mislam deka Makedoncite mozhat da si se vikaat kako tie sakaat i ovoj izmislen problem za imeto e nechueno i nekakva podmukla manipulacija. Ne sum bash sigurna shto e vistinskata cel tuka. Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 09:14:48 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Goce Naumoski Subject: Re: MAKEDON Digest - 9 Nov 1994 to 10 Nov 1994 In-Reply-To: <199411110505.GAA15511@svin04.win.tue.nl> from "Automatic digest processor" at Nov 11, 94 00:00:21 am > >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 13:24:36 -0500 >From: Zarko Stankovski >Subject: za imeto > > Tuku sto go procitav vo mic tekstot TROJNA FORMULA ZA IMETO : >Republika Makedonija, Republika Skopje i Nova Republika Makedonija. > > Mene ne me sokira. Sporeduvanjeto so francuskata Bretanja i >Velika Britanija nema vrska so nasiov problem. Zosto? Zatoa sto i Velika >Britanija, ne od isti pricini, ima povece iminja. Nie taka ja vikame, a >ja vikame i Anglija. A nejzinoto ime e United Kingdom ... A ne e samo >ona drzava so povece iminja, za nadvoresna i vnatresna upotreba. Eve, >nasive prijateli grcite, a ne samo oni, i madzarite i avstrijancite i >albancite. Eve edna tabela, se izvinuvam za pravopisnite greski, ova >go pisuvam na brzina i ne proveruvam: > > Vnatresno ime Ime za sosedot ime za OON, KEBS ... > >R Makedonija R Skopje Nova R Makedonija >Hellas Grcija Greece >Blgarija Bugarija Bulgaria >Osteraih Avstrija Austria >Magyar (???) Madzarska Hungary >Sqiperia Albanija Albania Mnogumina veke odgovorija na ovie smeshni predlozi (izvini ZHarko), pa mozhebi jas malku docnam bidejki porakite gi "digestiram". No eve vaka. Gornive predlozi se navistina smeshni. Iminjata se razlikuvaat samo vo jazicite, shto znachi deka sprema tvojata logika bi imale: Vnatresno ime Ime za sosedot ime za OON, KEBS ... R Makedonija R Skopje Nova R Makedonija Hellas R Atina New R of Greece Blgarija R Sofija New R of Bulgaria Osteraih R Viena New R of Austria Magyar (???) R Budimpeshta New R of Hungary Sqiperia R Tirana New R of Albania E aj sega rechi mi kade e logikata? Da, mozhesh da rechesh, pa tie veke odamna se priznata itn. itn. No sepak toa nema nikakva vrska. Megjutoa sledejki ja tvojata formula, bi imale vaka: Vnatresno ime Ime za sosedot ime za OON, KEBS ... R Makedonija grchki: Makedhonia R of Macedonia srpski: Makedonija bugarski: Makedonija albanski: Maqedonis (Ne znam kako se veli na albanski i neznam kako se pishuva republika na site jazici). Eve vaka bi bila tvojata logika. Ako e problem za grcite, neka ja vikaat Egejska Makedonija kako sakaat, no dovolna e razlikata so imeto Republika Makedonija. Koga pred nekolku godini beshe kritichno za Makedonija, posebno pred primanjeto vo ON i jas bev eden od onie "glupavi naivci" koj shto veruvashe deka ako go promenime imeto (i jas dadov predlog) vednash se ke bide vo red. No dali si cul za onaa narodnata "ako mu dadesh prst bara raka" ? E tokmu toa ke bideshe, t.e. duri togash se ke izgubevme. A za onie shto zhievat vo Makedonija i velat "e na vas vi e lesno, nie zhiveeme pod embargo", itn.; Dali e lesno ili ne zavisi, biedjki toa e individualno. nekoj zhivee podobro drug polosho, istoto e i vo Makedonija. Eden veli "ma bash mi e gajle koj ke dojde, samo neka mi dade 2000 marki plata". Dali site tie shto go mislat ova se svesni shto zboruvaat i shto prvat? Pa ako dojde drug nekoj ne samo deka nema da im dade 2000 marki plata, tuku i toa shto go imaat ke im go zeme, duri i lebot od usta. Zatoa e najdobro da si "sam svoj gazda" i sam da si ureduvash kako ti e najubavo. Toa go znaat i drugite, ne e ova nekoja moja genijalna misla, i zatoa go pravat; so drugi zborovi sekoj si gleda na svoite interesi. A koi se interesite na Makedonija? >Se povece mi se cini deka problemot ne e samo vo crckata podlost i glupost, >tuku i vo nasite frustracii i neizziveanost! Ne, tuku vo nashite podelbi i needinsvto, posebno okolu toa shto sakama i shto e najdobro za nashata idnina. Koga li ke prestane ova? Koga li makedonskite politichki partii ke imaat zaednichka platforma shto se odnesuva do najvazhnite nacionalni interesi, npr. nadvoreshnata politika ? E ako dojdat do ova, duri togash ke mozheme da "pokazheme zabi". > v >Pozdrav Zarko Pozdravi, Goce. > >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 15:12:08 EST >From: Zoran Mitrovski >Subject: Re: Kompromis(i) > >Zarko Stankovski pissuva: > >> Tose pisuva: >> >> > Makedonija kako tatkovina na makedonskiot narod e EDINSTVEN nositel na >> > makedonskata BITnost i edinstveno taa zasluzuva da go nosi toa gordo >> > ime. Nie sme edinstveni reprezentativci na ona zivo makedonsko, ziv >> > zbor, ziv narod, ziva kultura na ovaa planeta. Nemoj da mislite deka >> > ova se izlivi na ekstremen nacionalizam, naprotiv ova se logicni i realni >> > fakti, vo najmala raka blag patriotizam. Zatoa po ova prasanje, ako >> > voopsto ima prasanje, jas mislam NE SMEE DA IMA NIKAKVI kompromisi. >> >> Vo ovoj paragraf nema ni ekstremen nacionalizam ni fakti tuku gluposti. >> Izvini, Tose, za grubosta na mojava reakcija, ama taka e. Makedonskoto >> ime e gordo, a grckoto, turskoto, angliskoto, svajcarskoto, ciganskoto, >> zulu, indijskoto ili indijanskoto ne se? Ili se malku pomalku gordi? Da gordi se site iminja shto gi spomenuvash, no ne za mene. Megjutoa problemot e shto i za nekoi Makedonci imeto "Makedonija" ne e gordo. E shtom za site nas toa ime postane "gordost", duri togash svetot ke ne znae koi sme i shto sme. > >Ako Makedonskiot jazik, kultura i narod (priznaeni od site svetski >organizacii vo svetot) ne se FAKTI tuku gluposti, za tebe, togass se prassuvam >od koe prostor-vreme go pissuvass seto ova. Sekoj e gord so svojot identitet, >i jas ne gledam trosska glupost vo toa. >Za da navistina BIDESS liberalen, prvo treba MNOGU da razmisluvas za ona ssto >go pissuvass, a vaka licciss na pateticcen liberal-wannabe. >Najlesno e sebesi sekogass da se postaviss na sredina pomegju dve skarani >strani, no toa ne te pravi intelektuelec avtomatski. Principite ssto gi imass >i tvojata doslednost vo nivno ramnopravno sproveduvanje vo realnosta mnogu >povekke kke ti pomognat. > >> Pozdrav >> >> v >> Zarko > >Cheers, >Zoran >;^) Pozdravi, Goce. >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 16:35:46 EST >From: Zoran Mitrovski >Subject: predlog > >Bass zborev so Dani na ANM i dvajcata se prassuvame zossto samo mal del >od MakedoNet-eri pissuvaat (i ccitaat?) na ANM (alt.news.macedonia). >Prvo bi se zgolemil procentot na pissuvanje na makedonski jazik tamu i >barem malce bi se zagussile grccinjava ssto se ccatalat tamu. >Mislam deka za nasa politika i za se' drugo mozze da se zbori i na ANM. >Istovremeno bi se olesnil tovarot vrz Makedon. >Isto taka mislam deka pomalce kke se "grizeme" megjusebno ako imame >rezervna "vrekka za udiranje" vo gluposta na grccinjata tamu. >Edinstveno ssto ne bi ccinelo vo ovoj predlog bi bila nedostapnosta na >ANM za del od MakedoNet-eterite. Kolku od vas nemaat pristap do ANM ? >SSto vikaat "gazdite na makedon" za ova? > >Cheers, >Zoran >;^) Imam nekolku prashanja do vas (poaktivnite na ANM), pa razmisluvav dali direktno da mu gi postavam na Slavko, dali da gi pratam na ANM ili pak na MAKEDON. (A sega vo poetski stil) Dal' da gi pratam do Slavko il' da gi pratam do MAKEDON, ili pak do ANM. Ne, nema da gi pratam do Slavko, niti pak do MAKDON, tuku ke gi pratam direktno do ANM. (Ova e poznatata "slovenska antiteza" od starite epski pesni). Pa doviduvanje do ANM, Pozdravi, Goce. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 12:37:07 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: za imeto + In-Reply-To: <9411101903.AA23186@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Zarko Stankovski" at Nov 10, 94 01:24:36 pm Zdravo, > Vnatresno ime Ime za sosedot ime za OON, KEBS ... > > R Makedonija R Skopje Nova R Makedonija > Hellas Grcija Greece > Blgarija Bugarija Bulgaria > Oesterreich Avstrija Austria > Magyar (???) Madzarska Hungary > Sqiperia Albanija Albania > > Se povece mi se cini deka problemot ne e samo vo crckata podlost i glupost, > tuku i vo nasite frustracii i neizziveanost! > v > Pozdrav Zarko Edno dopolnuvanje koe shto e dosta ochigledno Vnatresno ime Ime za sosedot ime za OON, KEBS ... Deutschland Allemagne Germany ( zapaden sosed ) Ova se razliki ! Da ne zboruvame za iminja kako Njemachka, ne sum siguren kako Polcite i Chesite ja vikaat germanija, vazhno germancite gi vikaat Nemce. Primeri koi odgovaraa e Grcija vs Hellas, Sqiperia vs. Albania i Magyar vs Hungary. Drugite primeri se samo prilagoduvanje na imeto kon odreden jazik. Vo problemot so Makedonija zboruvame za tri sosema razlichni nazivi. I Makedonija da bide priznaena bi imalo povekje iminja ( spored tebe ). Vnatresno ime Ime za sosedot ime za OON, KEBS ... Makedonija ?????? Macedonia Inaku da ne zboruvame za germanskoto Mazedonien ili francuskata verzija. Pozdrav Alex ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 12:58:20 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: Muzika ++ In-Reply-To: <9411110345.AA01842@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Daniel Veljanovski" at Nov 10, 94 03:57:57 pm Zdravo, > Od kade si Alex? Od Skopje mozebi? Kade savrsi sredno? > > Pozdravi od New Jersey > > Daniel Prvo za Talking Heads, bidejki na niv zaboraviv. Imam mnogu malku slushnato raboti od niv, no toa shto go imam slushnato mi se dopadna. Jas sum roden vo Skopje i do pred 2.5 godini zhiveev tamu. Sredno zavrshiv vo R.J.Korchagin vo Skopje, a vednash po toa zaminav za Germanija na studii. Mozhnost za toa imav bidejku my mom is German i ovde mozham da prestojuvam kaj tetka mi, a kako chovek koj shto ima i germansko drzhavjanstvo studiranjeto ovde za mene e "besplatno". Inaku so ovde mislam na University Ulm, faculty for engineering scienses ( electrical eng. ). How about you Daniel? Greetings from Ulm with its typically pissed winter weather Alex ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 23:33:33 +1100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Todd Mickov Subject: no subject (file transmission) I am currently working on a geography book for students ages 9-14 and am looking for some good resources. What I need are stories that are part of different cultures from around the world. For example in the U.S. almost all children grow up with the story of Santa Claus. I would prefer stories or myths that are unique to your culture or country. I am also working on a book that will profile people from around the world and so I am looking for relativley short biographies of people from *everywhere*. Although I can promise no monetary rewards I do promise to give credit to any authors of stories that are in the final published form of either book. PLEASE DO NOT SUBMIT COPYWRITED WORKS! If you can assist me in anyway with this project or have a story to contribute PLEASE EMAIL me at: alexant@mail.firn.edu or alexant@freenet.fsu.edu Thanks for your help Todd Alexander -- from the desk of Todd Alexander alexant@freenet.fsu.edu -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 23:12:10 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Ovche pole Todd reche: > Kade e OVCHE POLE? Tie bea edni od najdobrite !?! Vo vtora liga (dobro 5 mesto :). Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 23:12:56 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Iminja > Mene ne me sokira. Sporeduvanjeto so francuskata Bretanja i > Velika Britanija nema vrska so nasiov problem. Zosto? Zatoa sto i Velika > Britanija, ne od isti pricini, ima povece iminja. Nie taka ja vikame, a > ja vikame i Anglija. A nejzinoto ime e United Kingdom ... A ne e samo Prichinite se moshne vazhni. Nego, koga sme kaj UK, dosega mi kazhuvale deka Great Britain e samo ostrovot kade shto se 'Britain', 'Wales' i 'Scotland', dodeka UK e istiot toj ostrov plus 'Northern Ireland'. Dali e tochno i ako ne e - shto e vistinata? > Vnatresno ime Ime za sosedot ime za OON, KEBS ... > > R Makedonija R Skopje Nova R Makedonija > Hellas Grcija Greece > Blgarija Bugarija Bulgaria > Osteraih Avstrija Austria > Magyar (???) Madzarska Hungary > Sqiperia Albanija Albania Izvini, ama nikoj od ovie ne se zhalele zoshto nekoj gi vika 'Grcija', 'Bugarija' itn, itn. Ako tebe nekoj te vika 'Zhaba' :) (no offense!), dali kje se soglasish so toa ime? Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 23:13:42 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Soccer - scores Prva makedonska fudbalska liga (13 kolo) Belasica - Borec ............... 3 : 0 Kozhuv Vinojug - Osogovo ............. 3 : 0 Pelister - Sileks .............. 1 : 2 Rudar - Balkan Bisi ......... 1 : 2 FCU - Ljuboten ............ 2 : 0 Sloga Jugomagnat - Sasa ................ 1 : 0 Ohrid - Tikvesh ............. 6 : 0 Vardar - Pobeda Vitaminka .... 2 : 1 Idno kolo (14) - 20 Noemvri '94 Borec - Pobeda Vitaminka Tikvesh - Vardar Sasa - Ohrid Ljuboten - Sloga Jugomagnat Balkan Bisi - FCU Sileks - Rudar Osogovo - Pelister Belasica - Kozhuv Vinojug Tabela: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Tim Utakmici Pob. Ner Izg Golovi Bodovi ------------------------------------------------------------------ 1. Vardar 13 9 4 0 29 : 7 31 4. Balkan Bisi 13 8 2 3 22 : 13 26 2. Pobeda Vitaminka 13 8 1 4 24 : 16 25 3. Osogovo 13 6 6 1 31 : 11 24 6. Sloga Jugomagnat 13 7 3 3 18 : 14 24 7. Sileks 13 7 2 4 28 : 15 23 5. Pelister 13 6 3 4 22 : 14 21 8. Sasa 13 6 1 6 20 : 13 19 9. Rudar 13 5 2 6 21 : 25 17 12. Belasica 13 4 2 7 22 : 26 14 10. Tikvesh 13 4 2 7 11 : 26 14 11. Ljuboten 13 4 1 8 18 : 31 13 14. Ohrid 13 4 0 9 15 : 20 12 13. FCU 13 3 3 7 8 : 13 12 15. Borec 13 2 3 8 11 : 31 9 16. Kozhuv Vinojug 13 2 3 8 12 : 37 9 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 14:38:09 GMT Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: M Petkovski Subject: za imeto ? Dragi nasi, Ne mozam da si poveruvam deka diskutirame za imeto na nasata zemja - dali da se vika kako sto se vika ili da go smenime zatoa sto taka sakale grcite ili deka nekoj ke ni dadel 50-60000 $ pomos. Ne stanuva zbor za nikakva nacionalna gordelivost ili ne daj boze nacionalizam, patriotizam ili shovinizam. Nitu pak za nekoja 'svetla istorija' (tuka Zarko e vo pravo - nema potreba da se zanesueme/potresueme po takvi iracionalni raboti). Ednostavno ne postoi nikakva pricina da go menuvame. Vsusnost, problemot i ne e vo imeto. Da ne bese imeto - ke bese nesto drugo. Problemot e vo samoto postoenje na RM, ili ako sakate vo samoto postoenje na nas Makedoncite. Grcite bea ubedeni deka toj problem veke go imaat rascisteno - kako doma taka i vo komsilukot, so pomos na nivnite stari prijateli. Ovie tri godini se sto pravea grcite, pravea so edna cel - da se destabilizira MK, da se dade povod za vleguvanje na prijatelite (koi isto taka ne ne priznavaat - od istata pricina) i da prodolzi relativno (ne?)uspesnata asimilacija na Makedoncite vo Jugosloveni. Zatoa mislam deka nema potreba da razmisluvame za nekakvi smesni novi iminja , duri nitu da pregovarame za toa. Se razbira nasite politicari ke prodolzat da odat na site zakazani sostanoci, ke bidat fini i uctivi vo so raznite Kinkeli, Herdovi, Butrosi pa ako treba i so onie Patuljasite, Pitsodlakisite & Prdandreouovite - ama nikoj nikogas ne smee da ima mandat da napravi nekoja teska glupost. Za takvi raboti - se znae: raferendum (i toa ako go platat grcite). Sto se odnesuva do blokadata - taa ne moze da bide opravduvanje za pravenje gluposti so imeto (koi ke ni ostanat za sekogas). Sega nekoj ke go potegne argumentot deka e lesno da se zboruva od strana dodeka narodot vo MK pati. No veruvam deka site sme seriozni lugje i deka nikoj ne veruva deka toa (patenjeto) e rezultat na blokadata ili na nedobivanjeto pari od programata Phare. Vprocem, kako sto rece Bube, dosega sto pati mozea da se organiziraat alternativni pravci i nie da gi blokirame Grcite, namesto tie nas. Druga rabota e ako nekomu vo MK ovaa situacija odgovara - bilo da se pravda pred narodot za losata ekonomska sostojba (citaj: mizerija) ili da gradi ekonomija bazirana na uvoz na SE so pomos na pari ili od pomos (prosjacenje) ili od krediti. Ovie vtorite, eden den, nasite deca ke moraat ili da gi otplakjaat ili (po primerot na nasite brakja od vremeto na Bratstvo-Edinstvoto) da organiziraat nekoja vojna, za da gi zabushat. Zatoa mislam deka imeto treba da si ostane, a nie da se naucime da ziveeme vo sosedstvo so grcite. Ako tie ne vikaat Republika Skopje - nie niv Republika Atina, tie ja blokiraat granicata - nie ja blokirame granicata. Za toa vreme pregovorite mozat da si prodolzat do beskraj, no bez golemi vozbuduvanja, bez naslovni stranici, bez prenesuvanje na mislenjata na kuririte vo atinskite ministerstva za zemjodelie i sumarstvo. Posle se cudime zosto samo 5-6000 luge kupuvale N.Makedonija. Jas se chudam sto i tolku gi ima. Se najubavo od (relativno) Obedinetoto Kralstvo Mihail -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mihail Petkovski, University of Sheffield, Department of Civil & Structural Engineering, Mappin Street, Sheffield S1 4DU, UK Tel. (0114) 2825 071; Fax. (0114) 2728 910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 09:49:30 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: za imeto + In-Reply-To: <199411111141.GAA32072@tequesta.gate.net> On Fri, 11 Nov 1994, Aleksandar Aleksov wrote: > Zdravo, > > > Vnatresno ime Ime za sosedot ime za OON, KEBS ... > > > > R Makedonija R Skopje Nova R Makedonija > > Hellas Grcija Greece > > Blgarija Bugarija Bulgaria > > Oesterreich Avstrija Austria > > Magyar (???) Madzarska Hungary > > Sqiperia Albanija Albania > > > > Se povece mi se cini deka problemot ne e samo vo crckata podlost i glupost, > > tuku i vo nasite frustracii i neizziveanost! > > v > > Pozdrav Zarko > Edno dopolnuvanje koe shto e dosta ochigledno > > Vnatresno ime Ime za sosedot ime za OON, KEBS ... > > Deutschland Allemagne Germany > ( zapaden sosed ) > > Ova se razliki ! Da ne zboruvame za iminja kako Njemachka, ne sum siguren > kako Polcite i Chesite ja vikaat germanija, vazhno germancite gi vikaat > Nemce. Primeri koi odgovaraa e Grcija vs Hellas, Sqiperia vs. Albania i > Magyar vs Hungary. > Drugite primeri se samo prilagoduvanje na imeto kon odreden jazik. Vo > problemot so Makedonija zboruvame za tri sosema razlichni nazivi. > I Makedonija da bide priznaena bi imalo povekje iminja ( spored tebe ). > Vnatresno ime Ime za sosedot ime za OON, KEBS ... > Makedonija ?????? Macedonia > Inaku da ne zboruvame za germanskoto Mazedonien ili francuskata verzija. > > Pozdrav > Alex > Gospodo, Ne znam dali se sekjavate no pred nekolku meseci vo Makedonija dojde vo poseta pretsedatelot na Turskiot parlament i vo prvata konferencija za pechatot izjavi deka iminjata i simbolite na drzhavite ne se predmet na pregovori nitu pak dogovori. Zatoa milsam deka nie voopshto ne treba ni da pomisluvame na nekakvi si 'novi iminja'. Pred nekolku meseci prochitav edna mnogu interesna kniga za diplomatijata po Balkanskite vojni. Tamu Srbive, na primer, koga odele na pregovori imale, na primer, 20 tochki od koi za 6 zneele deka ne mozhe da otstapat no za drugite 14 mozhele da otstapat bez gubenje na nivni nacionalni interesi. Ako go sporedime vakviot nachin, sprema mene pravilen, so nachinot na koi nashite pregovaraat so Grcite kje vidime deka nie vsushnost vednazh pochnavme da pregovarame za nashiot identitet. Problemot na nashite vo Grcija ne e ni spomnat. Bez da se pravam ekspert vo oviee raboti, mi izgleda pravilno nie da stavevme edna masa na baranja pa posle da pregovarame. Isto taka, vo posledno vreme se pokazha deka nashite dosega vo pregovorite se branele so 'vrzani race', t.e. nemanje na mnozinstvo vo parlamentot i t.n. Sega toa vekje go nema. Mnogu chesto vo nashite razmilsuvanja i teorii ja gubime istoriskata perspekiva vo menuvanjeto na imeto i simbolite i gi gledame samo deneshnite problemi. Slavko ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 10:38:10 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Andrej Kocev Subject: CS joke Zdravo! Ok, all you true computer scientists might find this humorous. True story: Someone posted a message to a certain USENET group asking if there exists a UNIX command/tool similar to cb (C beautifier, makes C code look pretty), but for COBOL programs. So, someone replied: Yes, there is. It's called rm. :-) -andrej ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 16:16:53 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: A.N.M. & Makedon Zoran reche: > Bass zborev so Dani na ANM i dvajcata se prassuvame zossto samo mal del > od MakedoNet-eri pissuvaat (i ccitaat?) na ANM (alt.news.macedonia). > Prvo bi se zgolemil procentot na pissuvanje na makedonski jazik tamu i > barem malce bi se zagussile grccinjava ssto se ccatalat tamu. > Mislam deka za nasa politika i za se' drugo mozze da se zbori i na ANM. > Istovremeno bi se olesnil tovarot vrz Makedon. > Isto taka mislam deka pomalce kke se "grizeme" megjusebno ako imame > rezervna "vrekka za udiranje" vo gluposta na grccinjata tamu. > Edinstveno ssto ne bi ccinelo vo ovoj predlog bi bila nedostapnosta na > ANM za del od MakedoNet-eterite. Kolku od vas nemaat pristap do ANM ? > SSto vikaat "gazdite na makedon" za ova? 1. Vo .mk imame samo e_mail (potochno, od vchera *najverojatno* proraboti prviot full Internet node vo Makedonija (!), no, bidejkji se ratoti za node postaven vo firma - isto kako da go nemame) i bi bilo malku problematichno da se pretplatuvame na usenet grupi (no, ne i neizvodlivo). 2. Mislam deka na sekomu mu e zdosadeno da vodi inaet so ochigledno zatupenite Grci na a.n.m. 3. Denovive se vodi zhestoka diskusija na SETNet (South European Team - Network), mrezha pomegju 30-tina srpski BBS-ovi, eden makedonski i eden bugarski. Od ednata strana se par srpski Grci i ushte po nekoj srpski nacionalista, a od "nasha" strana se 10-tina Makedonci. Nekoi od Makedoncite ostavaa duri i poraki po ostanatite BBS-ovi da povikaat na masovno prikluchuvanje kon diskusijata, no, jas ne gledam voopshto nekakva poenta vo toa. I shto ako se prikluchuvam vo edno masovno plukanje na eden vrz drug? Kolku jas toa pridonesuvam za civilizacijata ili pak za megjunarodnite odnosi? Za mene, toa e samo gubenje vreme i nishto povekje. Mislam deka od slichni prichini e formirana MAKEDON. Ako se lazham, neka me popravi nekoj od owner-ite/editor-ite. :) Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 15:06:18 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Igor Veljanovski Subject: Re: Muzika In-Reply-To: <199411110348.WAA13640@mailbox.syr.edu> Zdravo.. stom ovdeka veke se zboruva za muzika, evo gi top 10 pesni vo Anglija i Evropa za ovaa nedela: TOP 10 CHART-ENGLAND 10.stay-Lisa Loeb 9.some girls-Ultimate Kaos 8.hey now-Cindy Lauper 7.oh baby I..-Eternal 6.welcome to tomorrow-Snap 5.she's got that vibe.-R.Kelly 4.sweetness.-Michele Gayle 3.saturday night..-Whigfield 2.always.-Bon Jovi 1.baby come back.-Pato Banton TOP 10 CHART-EUROPEAN 10.eins,zwei,polizei..-MO-DO 9.welcome to tomorrow..-Snap 8.baby come back..-Pato Banton 7.i swear..-All4One 6.sure..-Take That 5.7 seconds..-Youssou N'Dour 4.cotton eye joe..-Rednex 3.love is all around..-Wet Wet Wet 2.always..-Bon Jovi 1.saturday night..-Whigfield pozdravi...igor( on the lovely Syracuse University campus ) p.s.dani..abe sto se sluci so gregorceto? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 15:16:21 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Boris Soposki Subject: Re: A.N.M. & Makedon In-Reply-To: Your message dated "Fri, 11 Nov 1994 16:16:53 -0800 (PST)" <01HJCOVYK1FMB2BZV2@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> >Zoran reche: Kire pisuva: > 1. Vo .mk imame samo e_mail (potochno, od vchera *najverojatno* > proraboti prviot full Internet node vo Makedonija (!), no, > bidejkji se ratoti za node postaven vo firma - isto kako > da go nemame) i bi bilo malku problematichno da se > pretplatuvame na usenet grupi (no, ne i neizvodlivo). > 2. Mislam deka na sekomu mu e zdosadeno da vodi inaet so > ochigledno zatupenite Grci na a.n.m. > 3. Denovive se vodi zhestoka diskusija na SETNet (South > European Team - Network), mrezha pomegju 30-tina srpski > BBS-ovi, eden makedonski i eden bugarski. Od ednata strana > se par srpski Grci i ushte po nekoj srpski nacionalista, > a od "nasha" strana se 10-tina Makedonci. Nekoi od Makedoncite > ostavaa duri i poraki po ostanatite BBS-ovi da povikaat > na masovno prikluchuvanje kon diskusijata, no, jas ne gledam > voopshto nekakva poenta vo toa. I shto ako se prikluchuvam > vo edno masovno plukanje na eden vrz drug? Kolku jas toa > pridonesuvam za civilizacijata ili pak za megjunarodnite > odnosi? Za mene, toa e samo gubenje vreme i nishto povekje. > Mislam deka od slichni prichini e formirana MAKEDON. > Ako se lazham, neka me popravi nekoj od owner-ite/editor-ite. :) >Pozdrav, >KiRe ViDiMCHe Kire, jas kako sto go svativ Zoran, ideata bese ako se priklucat povece Makedonci na ANM ce mozeme da razgovarame na Makedonski za raboti nas sto ne interesiraat. Kako sto nemas pristap (samo sega zasega se nadevam) na full Internet, da ti opisam nakratko kako e. Na grupa sto bi trebalo da bide za Makedonci nie 'matime prazna slama' so Grcite okolu imeto i od kade sme i sto sme. E sega ako ima povece nasi i ako go zgolemime prisustvoto na Makedonskiot Grcive bi videle-nevidele bi se povlekle od grupata ;-) A sto se odnesuva do masovno plukanje, sto da ti kazuvam. Treba samiot da vidis. Pozdravi od ladniot Rocchester Boris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 17:10:53 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: Re: predlog Bube prassuva: > Please give us more information how to subscribe to ANM. alt.news.macedonia e samo edna od iljadnicite Newsgroups na UseNet. Ovde kaj mene na Unix-ov samo treba da otkucam rn (znacci: read newsgroups) na promptot, i mi se vkluccuva newsgroup readerot. Koga si vlezen vo readerot, samo otkucaj: g alt.news.macedonia so ssto avtomatski kke te pretplati na taa newsgrupa. Ako ova ne raboti kaj tebe, rasprassaj se naokolu ssto da napraviss. Voedno da mu odgovoram i na Kire: ANM e takva kakva ssto e, tokmu zatoa ssto Grcite USPEAA da gi isteraat skoro site Makedonci od nea. Poradi niv i moravme da ja formirame ovaa makedon lista na koja kke mozze megjusebno na mira da si razgovarame. Koga Grcite na ANM bi videle 70% text koj ne se odnesuva na niv i plus koga nikoj nema da im odgovara na nivnite articli, mislam deka i ANM kke poccne da sluzzi za ona ssto i e predvidena. Mojot predlog ne besse "Ajde site da se karame so Grcite". Naprotiv, "Ajde site da pissuvame na ANM isto kako ssto pravime na makedon, i da sozdademe atmosfera ssto taa grupa ja zasluzzuva". Cheers, Zoran ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 16:17:28 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: EKV BTW, ako ne ste chule, i ako voopshto ima EKV fan-ovi, denovive umre Milan Mladenovich od rak na prostata. I seto toa kako posledica od postojano (dolgogodishno drogiranje). Velat deka pred smrtta izgledal kako starec na 80 godini. Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 16:17:14 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Muzika Daniel reche: > > > - Three Imaginary Boys (aka Boys don't cry) > > > - Seventeen seconds > > Dobari > > "Head on the door" isto. > > Dobar. Ama tie pogore se podobri. :) > > Kako ti se sviga "Push"? Dobra. > De bre Kire, sto li samo napravis?? A samo go spomnav Kiss kiss kiss > Dobar Vkus vo sekoj slucaj... Sorry, mo(nu)mentalna "inspiracija". :) > Pomisliv na toa na samiot pocetok stom go kupiv albumot. Barav da gi > najdam starite Cure wo ostanatite pesni, ama toa ne bese toa. Sepak Open Ne mozhesh da ochekuvash deka edna grupa postojano kje fura isti stil. Na krajot, albumite shto kje gi pravat kje pochnat da nalikuvaat na remix-ovi ili remake-ovi (bljak). E sega, deka Cure mozhebi odat kon se pospora i pospora muzika - fakt. Mozhebi toa znachi i se pogolemi dozi na droga za R. Smith? Who knows... and who cares... muzikata im e great. > and End bee dobri. Me iznervira i izjavata na Robert togas koga na NY > radio zboruvase zamo za sebe vo prisustvo na drugite i kako da gi prepisa > site uspesi samo na sebesi. Prilichno e egocentrik, ne? Pa samo pogledni gi textovite na pesnite. > Vidimce hmm, dali imas nesto so Ohridsko? a mozebi i se lazam... Bitolsko. Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 17:14:22 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Daniel Veljanovski Subject: Re: A.N.M. & Makedon In-Reply-To: <199411112025.PAA25574@hertz.njit.edu> On Fri, 11 Nov 1994, Boris Soposki wrote: > >Zoran reche: > > Kire pisuva: > > > 1. Vo .mk imame samo e_mail (potochno, od vchera *najverojatno* > > proraboti prviot full Internet node vo Makedonija (!), no, > > bidejkji se ratoti za node postaven vo firma - isto kako > > da go nemame) i bi bilo malku problematichno da se > > pretplatuvame na usenet grupi (no, ne i neizvodlivo). > > 2. Mislam deka na sekomu mu e zdosadeno da vodi inaet so > > ochigledno zatupenite Grci na a.n.m. > > 3. Denovive se vodi zhestoka diskusija na SETNet (South > > European Team - Network), mrezha pomegju 30-tina srpski > > BBS-ovi, eden makedonski i eden bugarski. Od ednata strana > > se par srpski Grci i ushte po nekoj srpski nacionalista, > > a od "nasha" strana se 10-tina Makedonci. Nekoi od Makedoncite > > ostavaa duri i poraki po ostanatite BBS-ovi da povikaat > > na masovno prikluchuvanje kon diskusijata, no, jas ne gledam > > voopshto nekakva poenta vo toa. I shto ako se prikluchuvam > > vo edno masovno plukanje na eden vrz drug? Kolku jas toa > > pridonesuvam za civilizacijata ili pak za megjunarodnite > > odnosi? Za mene, toa e samo gubenje vreme i nishto povekje. > > > Mislam deka od slichni prichini e formirana MAKEDON. > > Ako se lazham, neka me popravi nekoj od owner-ite/editor-ite. :) > > >Pozdrav, > >KiRe ViDiMCHe > > Kire, jas kako sto go svativ Zoran, ideata bese ako se priklucat povece > Makedonci na ANM ce mozeme da razgovarame na Makedonski za raboti nas sto ne > interesiraat. Kako sto nemas pristap (samo sega zasega se nadevam) na full > Internet, da ti opisam nakratko kako e. Na grupa sto bi trebalo da bide za > Makedonci nie 'matime prazna slama' so Grcite okolu imeto i od kade sme i sto > sme. E sega ako ima povece nasi i ako go zgolemime prisustvoto na Makedonskiot > Grcive bi videle-nevidele bi se povlekle od grupata ;-) > A sto se odnesuva do masovno plukanje, sto da ti kazuvam. Treba samiot da > vidis. > > Pozdravi od ladniot Rocchester > Boris Toa i navistina bese prvobitnata poraka na Zoki. Se razbira deka nema nikakva smisla da se vkluci bukvalno sekoj Makedonec protiv glupite Grci, no siper bi bilo ako imame Makedonski na anm iso kako sto imame na Makedon. Daniel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 17:23:33 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Daniel Veljanovski Subject: Re: predlog In-Reply-To: <199411112213.RAA27204@hertz.njit.edu> On Fri, 11 Nov 1994, Zoran Mitrovski wrote: > Bube prassuva: > > > Please give us more information how to subscribe to ANM. > > alt.news.macedonia e samo edna od iljadnicite Newsgroups na UseNet. > Ovde kaj mene na Unix-ov samo treba da otkucam > > rn > (znacci: read newsgroups) na promptot, i mi se vkluccuva newsgroup readerot. > Koga si vlezen vo readerot, samo otkucaj: > > g alt.news.macedonia Kaj mene treba da otkucas rn macedonia ama se doaga na istoto mesto. Mozno e razlicen universited da ima za malku razlicni komandi. > so ssto avtomatski kke te pretplati na taa newsgrupa. > Ako ova ne raboti kaj tebe, rasprassaj se naokolu ssto da napraviss. > > > Voedno da mu odgovoram i na Kire: > > ANM e takva kakva ssto e, tokmu zatoa ssto Grcite USPEAA da gi isteraat > skoro site Makedonci od nea. Poradi niv i moravme da ja formirame ovaa > makedon lista na koja kke mozze megjusebno na mira da si razgovarame. Koga > Grcite na ANM bi videle 70% text koj ne se odnesuva na niv i plus koga nikoj nem > a > da im odgovara na nivnite articli, mislam deka i ANM kke poccne da sluzzi za ona > ssto i e predvidena. Mojot predlog ne besse "Ajde site da se karame so Grcite". > Naprotiv, "Ajde site da pissuvame na ANM isto kako ssto pravime na makedon, > i da sozdademe atmosfera ssto taa grupa ja zasluzzuva". > Ako Grcite na soc.culture.greek mozat da si pisuvaat ma nivniot grcki i pokraj toa sto nekoi Turci ili Makrdonci se ufrluvaat, zosto ne bi ni nie na alt.news.macedonia? > Cheers, > Zoran > ;^) Cheers i od ovde, Daniel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 17:34:07 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Daniel Veljanovski Subject: Re: Muzika ++ In-Reply-To: <199411111408.JAA11559@hertz.njit.edu> On Fri, 11 Nov 1994, Aleksandar Aleksov wrote: > > Prvo za Talking Heads, bidejki na niv zaboraviv. Imam mnogu malku slushnato > raboti od niv, no toa shto go imam slushnato mi se dopadna. > Jas sum roden vo Skopje i do pred 2.5 godini zhiveev tamu. Sredno zavrshiv > vo R.J.Korchagin vo Skopje, a vednash po toa zaminav za Germanija na studii. > Mozhnost za toa imav bidejku my mom is German i ovde mozham da prestojuvam > kaj tetka mi, a kako chovek koj shto ima i germansko drzhavjanstvo > studiranjeto ovde za mene e "besplatno". Inaku so ovde mislam na University > Ulm, faculty for engineering scienses ( electrical eng. ). > How about you Daniel? Isti sme za Skopjeto. Zavrsiv vo Orce sredno a posle dojdov ovde da studiram Manufacturing Engineering Technology na New Jersey Institute of Technology. Btw, koga dojdov na NJIT, bea 10 mesto vo USA po Science and Tech spored Money Magazine, posle bea 6, a sega se 3. Hmm, dali navistina ostaviv takov pecat ovde, se se prasuavam (just joking). Dali Ulm e daleku od Darmstadt? NJIT me praka sledniot semestar tamu da go zemam, poslediot voedno. Primen sum, i cekam samo na pasos, posto brkam Makedonski i Amerikanski vo isto vreme, ama nekako vremenski sum tight, pa ima teoretski sansi i toa da me zezne na kraj... > Greetings from Ulm with its typically pissed winter weather > > Alex Aj, pa moze i ke se vidime vo Deutch.... Daniel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 23:55:16 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: "Vladimir M. Ognenovski" Subject: Re: Muzika + In-Reply-To: <199411110023.TAA29525@truelies.rs.itd.umich.edu> Zdravo Zoya, Makedonskiot folklor e popularen vo Kalifornija blagodarenie na etnomuzikolozite od Berkley t.e Palo Alto.Mislam deka grupite shto gi imenuvash se sostaveni od chlenovi shto go izuchuvale balkanskiot t.e. makedonskiot folklor.Nekoi od niv duri i gostuvale na festivali vo Makedonija. Vo vrska so makedonska muzika na CD ti ja preporachuvam Georgia Kelly & Dushan Bogdanovich " A Journey Home" na Global Pacific Records/CBS Records Vlatko On Thu, 10 Nov 1994, Zoya Naskova wrote: > Ste slushale li nekoi od americhkite grupi koi shto peat makedonski i drugi > balkanski pasmi; Kitka, Zhena, Orbestra (CD "Transdanubian Swine Heard > Music")? Tuka vo Kalifornija se dosta popularni vo odredeni krugovi. Isto > mozhe da se slushne originalna makedonska narodna muzika na programite za > megunarodna muzika na public stations" koi se povrzani so NPR i Pacifica > Radio (Vo L.A. KPFK, KCRW, KPCC). > > Zoya > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 00:56:20 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: EKV Kiril, my Macedonian is weak since I only know Russian. Could you translate for those of us who are "innocent" of Macedonian? pozdrav Glen Camp -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 On Fri, 11 Nov 1994, Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija wrote: > BTW, ako ne ste chule, i ako voopshto ima EKV fan-ovi, > denovive umre Milan Mladenovich od rak na prostata. > I seto toa kako posledica od postojano (dolgogodishno > drogiranje). Velat deka pred smrtta izgledal kako > starec na 80 godini. > > Pozdrav, > KiRe ViDiMCHe > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - > = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = > = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = > - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 02:48:19 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: A.N.M. & Makedon RE: 2. Mislam deka na sekomu mu e zdosadeno da vodi inaet so ochigledno zatupenite Grci na a.n.m. 3. Denovive se vodi zhestoka diskusija na SETNet (South European Team - Network), mrezha pomegju 30-tina srpski BBS-ovi, eden makedonski i eden bugarski. Od ednata strana se par srpski Grci i ushte po nekoj srpski nacionalista, a od "nasha" strana se 10-tina Makedonci. Nekoi od Makedoncite ostavaa duri i poraki po ostanatite BBS-ovi da povikaat na masovno prikluchuvanje kon diskusijata, no, jas ne gledam voopshto nekakva poenta vo toa. I shto ako se prikluchuvam vo edno masovno plukanje na eden vrz drug? Kolku jas toa pridonesuvam za civilizacijata ili pak za megjunarodnite odnosi? Za mene, toa e samo gubenje vreme i nishto povekje. REPLY: Jas se slagam so Kire. Na ANM se povtoruva istoto pa istoto, i se sveduva na navredi i slichno. Dosta mi e veka od Alexander makedonski i pra-istorija. Mi se chini ako nas ne nema, Grcite ke nema so kogo da se raspravaat. ANM ne e nikakva "alternative media," tuku "a bunch of bull." Ako ima neshto nie konstructivno da zapochneme, jas bi se vkluchila. Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 03:00:15 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Primeri od ANM za Makedoncite vo Makedonija Subject: Re: Historia (cont.8.1) From: valkanas@mit.edu () Date: 23 Sep 1994 05:56:18 GMT Message-ID: <35tqm2$phh@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> Slavko Mangovski (mango@gate.net) wrote: : PXP111@psuvm.psu.edu wrote: : : Netter Slavko Mangovski (mango@gate.net) replied on September 16, 1994 : : 15:55:33 GMT: : : > PXP111@psuvm.psu.edu wrote: : : > > Netter Slavko Mangovski (mango@gate.net) wrote on September 8, : : > > 1994, 20:25:32 GMT: : : \ \ : : > > > 821-823 A.D. : : > > > From the letter of Michael II to the honorable Ludwig: : : > > > "Thomas... having gathered our barges and dromon, had the : : > > > opportunity to arrive in (some) parts of Thrace and Macedonia." : : > > > Mansi, Michaelis Belbi et Theophilii....Florentinae, 1759 : : \ \ : : > > - Why are not the remaining lines (which reveal Michael II's : : > > perception of that region of Europe) included in the excerpt? : : > > Could the reason be that Michael II's version of `Macedonia' : : > > LEAVES OUT Skopje and Ohrid? : : > : : > Because it will take years to type all texts. : : So it is better to let truth and accuracy suffer... Congratulations! : Thank you. I was only following your example. Can you specify how 'truth : and accuracy suffered'? Because it 'leaves out' Skopje and Ohrid? So : what? Many others do and many others also exclude Thessaly from Hellas. So? : : That is just a pitiful excuse Slavko! You have proved time and time : : again that you have no scruples or reservations to post ALL sort of : : misquoted excerpts! : : If you had any decency at all you would have already apologized publicly : : even for ONE of your `omissions', and asked for time to review the rest : : of the excerpts to ensure that they did not intentionally mislead the : : fellow-netters! : OK, I apologize here for ALL my omissions. It seems that my postings hurt : so much that you decided to attack my credibility although I just post : the texts without any comment and you draw your fantastic conclusions : according to your 'Greek' view of reality. Unfortunately they do not seem so fantastic to the rest of the netters. And you don't seem to do such a good job of defending your position based on facts. As far as attacking your credibility, it seems that with your "Historia" series you are doing a good job of it. About the lack of comments, we don't see any, because I don't think you have any credible ones. Nothing that appears when you try to answer Romanos. : : You never admitted anything, but waited and waited... to see if you can : : get away with it! : : So, do not insult our intelligence by claiming that the incorporation of : : a couple of lines would be such a painful and time-consuming project! : : : But I have another 200 pages of historical documents and want to finish : them before the end pf this century considering that I also have to : work. But you are welcome to criticize as you have done so far and I : don't see what omitting reference to Skopje and Ohrid has to do with my : credibility. Could it be because they were inhabited by Bulgarians? I have the sneaky suspicion that Romanos is trying to tell you smt about your ancestors. Maybe that "Macedonian" language is indeed a Bulgarian dialect. If my suspicion is correct, then it should be interesting when you rediscover your nation. : : Do not expect us to pat you on the head and say "OK"! : : Appreciation and trust are things you gain! You have exhausted your : : credibility (and probably DID your people a disservise by scaring your : : neighbors even further by offering justifications even to their most : : baseless of fears). : All that because I post historical documents? Well, again, you are Greek : so I shouldn't be surprised. No, because of your relentless abuse of history and truth. : : Perhaps you are conversing in the wrong forum! : : No one here will `buy' the `line' that your time-constraints are the : : SOLE CAUSE for the plethora of your omissions in your project of the : : `Historia'-series! Why did not you try to cover less ground each time : : and provide more complete quotes? : Plethora? How many is a 'plethora' for you? I have counted 12 including Historia 12. : : Or isn't the `truth' what you are after? (Or is my question redundant?) Actually I think that Slavko is an intelligent man, but has this bible of incomplete phrases, on which he bases his believes. I don't believe any rational man would subject himself to such corrections time after time. : : > > "...the districts are of Thrace, Macedonia, Thessaloniki : : > > and the neighboring Sklavenies." : : > > > Concilia 2.2, p.476, lines 10-11.> : : > : : > Actually it says: ..."but also from Asia, Europe, Thrace, Macedonia, : : > Thessaly and from surrounding Sclavinii..." Sorry. : : : : You should be! : : However, in this case we do not merely have your word (and translation) : : against mine! I copy from the "Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium": : : "THESSALONIKE, THEME OF. The letter of Emp. Michael II : : to Louis the Pious in 824 mentions partes of Thrace, : : Macedonia, Thessalonike, and neighboring Sclavenia (MGH : : Leges. III. Concilia 2.2:478),..." : : \ \ : : > > BUT : : > > WHY did Mr.Mangovski CONCEAL the remaining of the passage, : : > > since he obviously had the chance to read it in advance? : : > : : > Lack of time never occured to you. : : For two lines? Get real! : : The LACK of real evidence that would allow you to compose/substantiate : : your version of `Macedonian' History, was THE one very good reason! : : Anyway! : : I you need a week just to review your other quotes and provide more : : complete, accurate and unbiased excerpts I can grant you that... : : If you need additional time, just post a message with words to that : : effect! I suspect that all netters will be most accomodating if you need : : a fresh start, for we desire and deserve a decent dialogue. : Hear, hear. : : It will not matter if the process of completing the excerpts is : : progressing in a slow rate! It is the principle and intention that : : counts! THAT TASK will be the most constructive of all attempted in this : : network of ours, for that will allow us to reach together an : : understanding of what happened in the Balkans... : : It takes a big person to commit in this way and engage/apply himself in : : such a labour, but perhaps you can surprise us all. : : Waiting, A.Romanos : : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - : : PS: Just in case you choose the `other path' Slavko: : : You should be aware that I do not mind continuing in a slower pace. : : After I check on the accuracy of the `Historia' posts I will tackle : : the accuracy and suitability of the sources pertaining to the other : : topics you explore... : : If you think that the long-term effects of `cutting' and `omitting' : : sentences (just so that you can cover more ground) will be of any : : substantial significance, you are disillusioned... : : [And in case you have not noticed yet: I check regularly : : on you and I hardly ever get distracted by the one- : : liners.] :-) : I know that. : Slavko This is hot! The whole newsgroup is watching just the Historia-History series. -- ********************************************* * * * Nicholas Valkanas (Nikos Balkavas) * * valkanas@MIT.EDU * * * ********************************************* " Take revenge on your kids by living long enough so that they will have to take care of you " In article <35p0s8$k9d@styx.uwa.edu.au> sashniko@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Sasha Nikolovski) writes: >From: sashniko@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Sasha Nikolovski) >Subject: Re: Absolute Hatred. >Date: 21 Sep 1994 10:11:20 GMT > Please follow up to this or email me and let me know, >I am extremely interested. (nikolovski) ------------------------------------------- FINALLY!!! AFTER 5 FU*KING MONTHS ON THE NET, A SLAV MACEDONIAN (MACEDONIAN WHATEVER) WANTS TO CONVERSE WITH ME, A SLAVO-TURKO-ARMENO-GRECO-ROMANO.(as your compatriots like to call me) Are you sure you want to do this, nikolovski? Are your compatriots emailing you now, and telling you to not mingle with 'greeks'.>????????? > Ahh! Welcome back, Nikolovski! (the stubborn one) >Glad to be back, actually a pleasure! ====================== That is not the impression I got from your initial reply posts to me. You indicated to me your extreme hatred. BTW you really should read the two articles by "Peter Hill." Have you done so? I have more reason to believe HIS academic papers that your BRAINWASHED mind, nikolovski. >: Well, first of all, Nikolovski, The ancient kingdom >: of Macedonia was plundered and dissipated by the Romans. >: Hence ... it no longer exists. >: Its people were assimilated into Roman, and Hellenistic >: cultures. > >Correct me if I am wrong but during this period, wasn't there a great >deal of land 'exchange', --------------------------------- Well, here is my interpretation of the events: Ancient Macedonia, was part of Greater Greece, though, not fully integrated into it, as such. Ancient Athens ultimately is Greece. It was the centre of knowledge and hellenism. Ancient Macedonia conquered and united Greece. Ancient Macedonia spread greek culture and language throughout its empire. >at one stage the Macedonian Kingdom occupied >most of the known world. ======================== True. Then you must ask yourself. "what was the universal language that the ancient Macedons wished to spread throughout their empire?" "What architectural style did the ancient macedons build their cities?" "What gods did the ancient Macedons Worship?" etc etc etc. >Why is it that the whole of that region was not >called Macedonia, because I guess like with all the other Kingdoms at >that stage we probably lost a battle here and there. ------------------------------------------------- No. Alexander the Great, was not a conqueror in the sense that he destroyed other cultures completely. In egypt for example, he was seen as a hero. But he did not rename egypt. Egypt merely became an administrative unit of the Macedonian Empire. >: ......henceforth, it was no longer considered as >: a nation of any sort, but rather a geographical region. >No, no, no, this is absolute crap, now I haven't the time to go and find >you references as I know you like, but all I will say is that the culture >and name of a nation exsists down to the last man Harry ======================================================= AHHHHHHH!!!!!! So tell me, Nikolovski. Who is this """LAST MAN""" ???? explain. Who is this mysterious man you speak of, nikolovski??? Where is he??? Does he speak the a language that is descended from the ancient Macedons??? Does he live his life by a culture that is descended from the ancient macedons??? Are you going to deny that the Nation of FYROM is a modern communist invention??? If so, give evidence, explain. Otherwise, I hate your FUCKING guts. Nikolovski, EVIDENCE, is the only way that we can find the truth. I and nobody else gives a Flying-Fuck what personal experiences you or I may have had. Evidence that has been published and researched by the Academic Institutions of the World, is our ONLY guide to the TRUTH. If you refuse to present such evidence, ...... Then you TRULY ARE BRAINWASHED!!!! >I do not understand how you think that Aegean Macedonia is the real >Macedonia and the Republic of Macedonia is not the real Macedonia when >the two places were the same nation less than a century ago? Am I wrong? ------------------------------ less than a century ago??? WHERE THE FUCK DID YOU GET THAT FUCKING IDEA FROM????????????????????????????????/ less than a century???? That means about 90 years. 90 years ago means you are saying that macedonian was an official nation during the 1890s-1900s right??? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Macedonia, was, and still is a region. A region that was under Ottoman Rule. Ottomans classed the people of that region by religion and NOT NATIONALITY BECAUSE NATIONALISM DID NOT ARISE UNTIL THE LATE 19th CENTURY! FYROM WAS NOT RECOGNISED UNTIL 1944 you FUCKING BRAINWASHED SLAV!!!!! GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!!! >: Your name, Nikolovski, is proof that you are a slav. >: IT is proof that you want to self-determine yourself >: as a slavic person. > >Sorry this is the first time that I have heard anyone call me a Slav by >my name. People not even involved with this issue know that the name is >distinct from the rest of Yugoslavia etc, etc. ==================== Which people? Nikolovski??? I can understand that yugoslavs, and bulgarians would notice differences, but to most of the outside world, you are generally a Yugoslav(by virtue of FYROMS association with that Federation) >Sorry, while I am this, if the Ancient Macedonian nation and culture were >dissipated by the Romans then surely it means thatno one has the >exclusive rights to any of the Ancients symbols etc, etc, as you people >claim to do so. --------------------- But, the Ancient Macedons had a hellenistic culture. The archaeological artifacts found, PROVE that. The fact that the Ancient Macedonian Dynasty United Greece, and spread Greek culture through its conquering, proves that Greece has the right to inherit such history. So then, Nikolovski, Tell me... ...for what proof and reasons should the modern slavs of FYROM be permitted to inherit such history?????????????????? By the way, Greece is not the one who is Fundamentally Identifying its nation as "MACEDONIA". Greece is still Greece. Ancient Macedonia (history and symbols) is part of Greece. It is part of Greek History. The History of FYROM and Bulgaria and Yugosalvia does not begin until the 7th Century AD. AFTER the true ancient Macedons. I ask you again, since you appeared AFTER the true ancient macedons, what gives FYROM the right to FUNDAMENTALLY Adopt their symbols and name????? >I would like to propose a theoretical question to everyone: Greeks and >Macedonians, > >If a person is born in a nation called ABC, and for some reason or >another he becomes famous and is known for centuries to come, but the >nation ABC has lost land to a nation called XYZ, is this person ABCian or >XYZian. ------------------------------------- Well, first of all. If you plan to analogise your example to the true nature of the events which have taken place, then one of your above statements should read." ......"but the nation ABC lost its land to the NATIONS of XYZ, DEF, and IJK" <===so that this sentence corresponds to the Balkan Wars land-grab. To answer your question, That person, would still be an ABCian. He would fall under the same category as the Kurds and Armenians of Today. But, your analogy does not follow the correct sequence of events, nikolovski. After Alexander the Greats Death, His generals divided his empire. His empire Crumbled to the east, and gradually retracted back to the original Macedonian Kingdom, at which time, the Romans came along and: * basically annihilated it, and divided it into 4???? roman provinces. * Ottomans came along, and conquered the roman empire. under the Ottoman empire, old borders and old nationalist ambitions were 'eliminated'??. People were classed by religion. And people moved freely about the Ottoman Empire, so some 'Greeks' settled in Asia Minor, While some slavs settled in areas of Greece.etc etc etc. Basically, people mixed freely throught the empire. * Then the ottoman empire crumbled, and nationalist feelings arose again, (based on lingustic differences.) * after the Balkan wars Borders were drawn, Greeks in asia minor were moved to Macedonia(region), Slavs in Macedonia(region) were moved to bulgaria and yugoslavia. do you have a problem with the sketchy interpretation above, nikolovski? Which part does not correspond to your way of thinking??? ----end-of-post---- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 03:02:28 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: predlog RE:"Ajde site da pissuvame na ANM isto kako ssto pravime na makedon, i da sozdademe atmosfera ssto taa grupa ja zasluzzuva". REPLY: OK. Pod koj naslov da pochneme? Z ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 03:07:41 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Muzika + RE: Zdravo Zoya, Makedonskiot folklor e popularen vo Kalifornija blagodarenie na etnomuzikolozite od Berkley t.e Palo Alto. REPLY: Tochno. Gi ima isto i na UCLA i ponekogash uchestvuvaat na festivalot shto makedonskata crkva go ima vo Whittier. Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 03:12:58 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: REUTER: Znaete li neshto poveke za ova? Hijacker lets passengers off Olympic plane ATHENS, Nov 8 (Reuter) - All 69 passengers of a hijacked Olympic Airways Boeing 737-400 were released at Salonika airport on Tuesday, a Greek civil aviation official told Reuters. ``It is a single hijacker and he has let all passengers go,'' the official at Salonika's Macedonia airport said. MORE REUTER Transmitted: 94-11-08 07:26:46 EST HIJACKED GREEK AIRLINER LANDS AT SALONICA, NORTHERN GREECE--A Greek Olympic Airways plane hijacked today above the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia has landed at the northern Greek airport of Salonica, airport officials said. The plane, carrying 68 or 69 passengers and eight crew was commandeered by gunmen while on a flight from Dusseldorf to Athens. (6816) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 03:15:03 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: After the rain X-To: Samoil@aol.com, BARTHJ@scpmg.com HOLLYWOOD (Variety) - Milcho Manchevski's ``Before the Rain'' will be Macedonia's first official entry for the 67th Academy Awards. The film, to be distributed by Gramercy, stars Katrin Cartlidge, Rade Serbedzja, Gregoire Colin and Labina Mitevska. It is a co-production between Aim Productions, Noe Productions and Macedonia's Vardar Film. Producers are Cedomir Kolar, Judy Counihan, Sam Taylor and Cat Villiers. ----- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 03:16:36 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: pipeline X-To: BARTHJ@scpmg.com Balkan governments sign agreement for AMBO oil pipeline project Knight-Ridder London--Nov 10--The governments of Bulgaria, Macedonia and Albania have signed an agreement to begin a complete feasibility study for the construction of an oil pipeline linking the Black Sea with the Adriatic, according to statement from AMBO Corp., which heads the pipeline consortium. The consortium plans to construct a pipeline to transport Russian and Kazakh crude the 520 miles from Burgas on the Bulgarian Black Sea coast, through Macedonia to Vlore on the southern Adriatic coast of Albania. With governmental approval secured, the consortium's next challenge is to find finance for the project and to negotiate a commitment from the Russian government and oil companies to supply crude. The European Bank for Reconstruction and Development has already shown interest in the venture, especially because it promises to contribute to the "economic integration of the region." Several oil majors and at least one Italian oil company are also said to have been attracted to the plan. Industry sources are skeptical the consortium will succeed in securing a long-term crude supply contract with a Russian exporter. The Russian Energy Ministry is said to feel uneasy about prospective pipeline plans through the Balkans because of the risk of political instability. But Gligor Taskovich, an advisor to AMBO, said the pipeline could also serve traders and lifters who currently ship crude from the Black Sea loading terminal of Novorosiissk into the Mediterranean. End By Chris Davison, Knight-Ridder Financial News Tel: +44-71-842-4079 (NOTE: Comments or suggestions about this item or any other aspect of KRFN's energy coverage can be sent via the Internet to the following address: krf.energy@plink.geis.com) By Chris Davison, Knight-Ridder Financial News ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 15:25:46 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Sasha Konechni Subject: Predlog i Diskusija - A.N.M. & Makedon - In-Reply-To: <9411120749.AA18075@sun4nl.NL.net> Zdravo na site, Se javuva eden od vashite pozrtvuvani list-owners na MAKEDON. Gledam deka pochna da se javuva interes za toa shto se sluchuva vo svetot na NewsNet i ANM. Zato imam da soopshtam edna vazhna rabota vo vrska so ova. Kje gi zamolam site da go prochitaat ova shto kje go kazham vo ostanatiot del od porakava, da sekoj dobro razmisli i da potoa go kazhe negovoto mislenje. Se raboti za slednovo: Ima edna mozhnost da nashata mailing lista MAKEDON ja stavime diretno na NewsNet. Imeno sekoja mailing lista od tipot na makedon ima pravo da stane grupa na Internet. Imeto bi bilo: bit.listserv.makedon Ovaa grupa bi bila normalna, ne kako alt.news.macedonia koja e taka narechena alternativna grupa. Kje navedam samo deka povekjeto voopshto ne gi prenesuvaat alternativnite grupi. Na primer jas voopshto nemam dostap do ANM, bidejkji na site mesta kade shto sum rabotel do sega alternativnite grupi bile nepristapni. Edna od prichinite e i shto povekjeto od alternativni grupi se od tipot "alt.sex.animals...". So ova ne sakam da go namalam znachenito na ANM za makedonskata komuna na internet. Imeno vo momentot koga beshe kreirana ANM nemavme drug izbor. Verojatno site znaete za neuspehot da se kreira soc.culture.macedonia (scm). Od ova proizleguva deka ANM ima mnogu ogranichen obem i pristap, samo pogolemite univerziteti i organizacii imaat pristap do nea. Od druga strana grupite od tipot na bit.listserv, se smetaat za seriozni grupi i se mnogu po dostapni za shiroka publika. Sakam posebno da naglasam shto kje bide ako ja otovrime makedon. Ako makedon stane grupa togash sekoja proraka pratene preku e-mail do mail serverot avtomatski se praka i na soodvetnata grupa, a i obratno, sekoja napisdostaven do bit.listerv.makedon se praka i do site pretplatnici na makedon. Ova do sega beshe uvodot, a sega kje prejdam na glavnoto. Vo sluchaj da se slozhime da se povrzeme so grupa, togash ke treba da se organiziraat nekoi raboti od tehnichki karakter. Ova kje bara zalagenje i polno saati zad kompjuter. Na zhalost moite slobodni saati se troshat potpolno na odrzhuvanjeto na mailing listata maknsw-l i delimichno na makedon. Ova znachi deka kje treba da se najde nekoj koj kje mozhe da odvoi eden del od svoeto slobodno vreme za organiziranje na vakvo neshto. Zemajkji go gore spomenatovo vo predvid, bi sakal da gi postavam slednive prashanja i da otvoram diskusija vo vrska so toa: 1. Dali sakame da ja stavime MAKEDON na NewsNet? Ova e prvo i najvazhno prashanje. Se drugo kje bide lesno ako se slozhime za ova. 2. Ako ja stavime MAKEDON na NewsNet dali ima dobrovolci koi mozhat i sakaat da se zafatat okolu technichkoto organiziranje? 3. Ako ima dobrovolci, togash bi predlozhil da se napravi edna rabotna grupa na ljuge koi kje se nafatat na organizacijata i da tie komuniciraat megju sebe za tehnickite detalji na rabotata. 4. Nema potreba da tehnichkite detali se diskutiraat na makedon. Isto taka mislam deka e i podobro da ne diskutirame mnogu tehnichki detali na makedon i vo javnost. Imeno mozhe mnogu lesno da se sluchi da se javi otpor protiv formiranje na vakva grupa, i da se povtori situacijata shto nastana pri obidot za formiranje na SCM. Zatoa ednash koga kje odluchime, i ke se formira edna rabotna grupa, kje mora brzo i efikasno da se sprovede namerata, bez mnogu buka i frka. Zatoa i ovaa poraka ja pishuvm iskluchitelno na makedonski i bi sakal da i ponatamoshnata diskusija ostane na makedonski. 5. Posleniot problem e deka mozhe da se pojavi potreba da se stavi editor na makedon. Imeno sega nema editor i sekoja poraka bez nikakva kontrola se distribuira do site pretplatnici. Ako se otvorime kon javnosta togash mozhe da se izmeni situacijata. Ova znachi deka mozhe da se pojvi potreba da nekoj ja vrshi taa obemna rabota na editiranje na porakite. Jas nema da bidam mnogu sloboden i vo mozhnost da uchestvuvam vo gore zapochnatava diskusija vo slednive dve nedeli. Imeno, menuvam rabotna sredina, e-mail adresa i drugi nekoi raboti, i kje pomine nekoe vreme dodeka da mojata situacija se stabilizira. No kje se obidam shto mozhe povekje da bidam prisaten. Na novoto rabotno mesto kje imam podobar pristap do Internet otkolku pristapot koj shto go imam sega, taka da kje mozham ushte povekje i podobro da doprinesma za odrzhuvanjeto na maknws-l i makedon. Ova beshe toa shto sakav da go kazham. Bidete site mnogu pozdraveni od vrnezhliva Holandija (more kakva vrnezliva, celo vreme istura) i se nadevam deka naskoro kje se chueme na NewsNet. Sasha Konechni maknws-l, makedon co-owner. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 12:52:01 -0600 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: George Mitrevski Subject: Re: Predlog i Diskusija - A.N.M. & Makedon - In-Reply-To: <9411121433.AA23939@mail.auburn.edu> Zdravo na site, Po moe mislenje, ako MAKEDON se stavi na bitnet ke stani haoticna grupa isto kako i anm. Bi se slozil MAKEDON da se stavi na bitnet samo ako ima nekoja druga paralelna grupa kako sto e sega MAKEDON. Jas licno nemam vreme da citam gluposti vo vrska so dve ili tri temi koi se povtoruvaat den za den so meseci. Goce Mitrevski Auburn University ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 12:17:26 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Plamen Bliznakov Subject: Re: pipeline Zoya Naskova writes... >Balkan governments sign agreement for AMBO oil pipeline project <...> > But Gligor Taskovich, an advisor to AMBO, said the pipeline could also >serve traders and lifters who currently ship crude from the Black Sea >loading terminal of Novorosiissk into the Mediterranean. End In MAK-NEWS reports the guy's name was given as "Vuko Tashkovich". In one of them (MIC, I think) he was called president of AMBO, in the other - "representative" of AMBO. Does anyone know more about the person ? Regards, Plamen Plamen.Bliznakov@ASU.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 02:14:22 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@WAVE.SCAR.UTORONTO.CA> Subject: Re: Vuko Taskovich In-Reply-To: <9411121918.AA15055@wave.scar.utoronto.ca> from "Plamen Bliznakov" at Nov 12, 94 12:17:26 pm Plamen Bliznakov wrote: > In MAK-NEWS reports the guy's name was given as "Vuko Tashkovich". In > one of them (MIC, I think) he was called president of AMBO, in the other - > "representative" of AMBO. Does anyone know more about the person ? I met Vuko last year at the UN when Macedonia was admitted as the 181st nation of the organization. He is a VERY good Macedonian who if I remember, lives in New York. Again, if I remember, he was a major force of the American-Macedonian lobby effort to get the Republic of Macedonia recognized. Vuko, by my experience with him is a very good man and Macedonian. He is from Bitola (or a neighbouring village) and kept his name Tashkovich after the Serbs changed if from Tashkovski. That is roughly what I remember. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 09:28:57 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: "Vladimir M. Ognenovski" Subject: Re: Vuko Taskovich X-To: SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@WAVE.SCAR.UTORONTO.CA> In-Reply-To: <199411130716.CAA11899@judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu> In addition, Vuko was featured in Nova Makedonija as a prominent architect in the US,strong patriot, and potential investor in Macedonia. His family is well known among stari Bitolchani. Vlatko On Sun, 13 Nov 1994, SARAGIL STEVE wrote: > Plamen Bliznakov wrote: > > > In MAK-NEWS reports the guy's name was given as "Vuko Tashkovich". In > > one of them (MIC, I think) he was called president of AMBO, in the other - > > "representative" of AMBO. Does anyone know more about the person ? > > I met Vuko last year at the UN when Macedonia was admitted as the > 181st nation of the organization. He is a VERY good Macedonian who > if I remember, lives in New York. Again, if I remember, he was a major > force of the American-Macedonian lobby effort to get the Republic of > Macedonia recognized. Vuko, by my experience with him is a very good > man and Macedonian. He is from Bitola (or a neighbouring village) and > kept his name Tashkovich after the Serbs changed if from Tashkovski. > > That is roughly what I remember. > Steve > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 19:29:42 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: pipeline I think Vuko is the Father, Gligoer is the sun (or nephew, not 100% sure.) I think Glogor lives in New York?? Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 20:34:12 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: pipeline In-Reply-To: <199411140031.TAA14316@tequesta.gate.net> On Sun, 13 Nov 1994, Zoya Naskova wrote: > I think Vuko is the Father, Gligoer is the sun (or nephew, not 100% sure.) I > think Glogor lives in New York?? > > Zoya > To set the records streight on Mr. Tashkovic: Born in Bitola, graduated from Cornell, renowened architecht (his houses can be seen for sale in the New York Times Magazine), married with two children (Gligor is one), great Macedonian patriot. All of his family are actively involved in various projects concerning Macedonia. Slavko ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 19:38:09 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Plamen Bliznakov Subject: Military co-operation US/Macedonia (Radio VOA Report) I re-post a Radio VOA report which might be of interest to readers of this mailing list. All standard disclaimers apply. Regards, Plamen Plamen.Bliznakov@ASU.edu ---- DATE=11/12/94 TYPE=CORRESPONDENT REPORT NUMBER=2-169181 TITLE=U-S/MACEDONIA (S ONLY) BYLINE=VICTOR BEATTIE DATELINE=WASHINGTON CONTENT= VOICED AT: INTRO: AS THE YUGOSLAV CONFLICT IN BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA INTENSIFIES MACEDONIA AND THE UNITED STATES HAVE MOVED CLOSER TOGETHER BY SIGNING A DEFENSE COOPERATION ACCORD. V-O-A'S VICTOR BEATTIE REPORTS THE UNITED STATES -- MOVING TO INCREASE ITS INFLUENCE IN THE AREA -- SIGNED A SIMILAR ACCORD LAST WEEK WITH CROATIA: TEXT: ASSISTANT U-S DEFENSE SECRETARY JOSEPH KRUZEL SAYS THE AGREEMENT ALLOWS MACEDONIAN OFFICERS TO BE TRAINED AT U-S MILITARY ACADEMIES. MACEDONIA IS THE ONLY FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC WHERE U-S TROOPS ARE STATIONED AS PART OF A U-N PEACEKEEPING MISSION AIMED AT GUARDING AGAINST A SPREAD OF THE BALKAN CONFLICT. MR. KRUZEL'S TWO DAYS OF MEETINGS IN SKOPJE DEALT PRIMARILY WITH MACEDONIA'S SECURITY ALONG ITS BORDER WITH YUGOSLAVIA. HE EMPHASIZES THERE IS NO IMMEDIATE THREAT TO BORDER SECURITY EVEN THOUGH YUGOSLAVIA DOES NOT RECOGNIZE MACEDONIA WHICH DECLARED ITS INDEPENDENCE THREE YEARS AGO. MR. KRUZEL SAYS A LONG-TERM SOLUTION TO BORDER TENSIONS MUST INCLUDE BELGRADE'S RECOGNITION OF MACEDONIAN SOVEREIGNTY AND DECLARE IT HAS NO TERRITORIAL AMBITIONS AGAINST MACDONIA. HE SAYS SANCTIONS SHOULD NOT BE LIFTED ON SERBIA AND MONTENEGRO UNTIL THEY MEET SUCH A DEMAND. LANDLOCKED MACEDONIA IS BEING HURT BY INTERNATIONAL SANCTIONS ON SERBIA -- WHICH HAS BEEN A KEY TRADING PARTNER -- AND BY GREECE. ATHENS ALSO DOES NOT RECOGNIZE MACEDONIAN SOVEREIGNTY COMPLAINING THE STATE'S NAME IMPLIES A CLAIM ON THE NORTHERN GREEK PROVINCE OF THE SAME NAME. (SIGNED) NEB/SD 12-Nov-94 8:43 PM EST (0143 UTC) NNNN Source: Voice of America ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 22:25:48 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@WAVE.SCAR.UTORONTO.CA> Subject: U of T Macy Assoc. The Association of Macedonian Students at the University of Toronto has entered the computer age by acquiring a new conference on the CampusLife BBS stationed out of St.George Campus of the University of Toronto. As a member of this BBS, over 80,000 U of T students have the ability to contact us and communicate on an intellectual level on matters that concern Macedonia and Macedonian U of T students. As of now, only two other campus groups have similar conferences on the BBS, namely the Chinese and Ukranian student unions. If any Macedonian student organization out their in "computer-land" would like to contact AMSUT, please e-mail us at: Macedonian_Association@UTCampusLife.org This is an excellent opportunity to create and maintain ties with similar Macedonian youth groups around the globe. Hope to hear from you soon! Steve Saragil _________ _________/ \ ___ __/ \________/ \__ _/ -=* StEvE SaRaGiL *=- \____ / e-mail: 90saragi@wave.scar.utoronto.ca \__ | \_ | Association of Macedonian Students at the \_ / University of Toronto \ | c/o SCSC University of Toronto \ | 1265 Military Trail, Scarborough, Ontario | | M1C 1A4 CANADA | \__ e-mail: Macedonian_Association@UTCampusLife.org ___ / \ / \_/ / There's only ONE Macedonia & it's NOT Greek!_/ __ / ___ _____ ___ / / \ | __ / @ Solun \ \_ \_ \/\ \__| \ AMSUT Hotline / \_/ | \ \ \ \ / \ +1 416 / | \ \ | | \ \ 236-6979 _/ | \_ \ | | | \________/ \____\ \__/ \__| MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS! DA ZIVEE MAKEDONIJA! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 23:35:55 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Boris Soposki Subject: Da se nasmeeme Heaviest Element Discovered The heaviest element known to science was recently discovered by the scientists at Arizona State University. The element, tentatively named Administratium (Ad), has no protons or electrons, thus it has atomic number 0. It does, however, have one neutron, 75 associate neutrons, 125 deputy neutrons and 111 assistant duty neutrons. This gives it an atomic mass of 312. The 312 particles are held together in the nucleus by a force that involves the continuous exchange of meson-like particles called memos. Because it has no electrons, Administratium is inert. Nevertheless, it can be detected chemically, because it seems to impede every reaction in which it takes part. According to Dr. M. Languor, one of the discoverers of the element, a very small amount of Administratium made one reaction, that normally takes less than a second, take more than four days to go to completion. Administratium has a half-life of approximately three years. At the end of this time it does not actually decay. Instead, it undergoes an internal reorganization in which the associates to the neutron, deputy associates to the neutron, and assistant deputy associate neutrons, all exchange places. Some studies indicate that the atomic mass actually increases after each reorganization. ********************************************************************************** Pozdravi Boris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 02:56:05 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Jay Wise Subject: Re: Military co-operation US/Macedonia (Radio VOA Report) To the respondents of the MAKEDON discussion list: I have been "eavesdropping" on your discussions for a few weeks, reading your comments -- with particular regard to the issues raised by the election controversy, as well as to the brief explosion of Greek jokes -- with great interest. Keeping in mind my status as a bystander, albeit one fascinated by Macedonia (I refuse to use the shameful language drafted by our own callow State Department, namely the moniker FYRoM), and its place in the Balkans, I had thought it best not to speak on subjects about which I was clearly one of the least well informed, and thus to simply read messages off the discussion list, not add any of my own. But here, I confess, I'm curious. One of the things I'm trying to study -- I'm designing my own major here at Chicago -- is security policy in East Europe, and the degree to which western states can and should help other states formulate those policies. This question speaks to a great many issues, from the basic question of how effective the standing armies of small states can be, to the question of identity: how important a state's army (and the traditions it reflects) are to a nation of people. Of course, these issues take on a new importance when faced by a state like Macedonia, a state facing great military and cultural pressure, if not actual aggression. So along came this VOA article forwarded from another MAKEDON correspondent, and I thought it would be interesting to see some reactions to it.I know a great many of you aren't PoliSci or International relations, but I'm curious about what you think of Macedonian security policy, and this initiative to work with the Americans. Or, if this a particularly inane question asked by a shallow and ugly American, let me know that, too, in a non-threatening and specifically non-flaming way. Thanks, everyone, for your time and your patience; this discussion group is a wonderful arrangement, and I've loved listening in... (PS: Sorry, but cannot read Macedonian; currently, I have my hands quite full with Hungarian). >DATE=11/12/94 >TYPE=CORRESPONDENT REPORT >NUMBER=2-169181 >TITLE=U-S/MACEDONIA (S ONLY) >BYLINE=VICTOR BEATTIE >DATELINE=WASHINGTON >CONTENT= >VOICED AT: > >INTRO: AS THE YUGOSLAV CONFLICT IN BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA >INTENSIFIES MACEDONIA AND THE UNITED STATES HAVE MOVED CLOSER >TOGETHER BY SIGNING A DEFENSE COOPERATION ACCORD. V-O-A'S VICTOR >BEATTIE REPORTS THE UNITED STATES -- MOVING TO INCREASE ITS >INFLUENCE IN THE AREA -- SIGNED A SIMILAR ACCORD LAST WEEK WITH >CROATIA: > >TEXT: ASSISTANT U-S DEFENSE SECRETARY JOSEPH KRUZEL SAYS THE >AGREEMENT ALLOWS MACEDONIAN OFFICERS TO BE TRAINED AT U-S >MILITARY ACADEMIES. MACEDONIA IS THE ONLY FORMER YUGOSLAV >REPUBLIC WHERE U-S TROOPS ARE STATIONED AS PART OF A U-N >PEACEKEEPING MISSION AIMED AT GUARDING AGAINST A SPREAD OF THE >BALKAN CONFLICT. > >MR. KRUZEL'S TWO DAYS OF MEETINGS IN SKOPJE DEALT PRIMARILY WITH >MACEDONIA'S SECURITY ALONG ITS BORDER WITH YUGOSLAVIA. HE >EMPHASIZES THERE IS NO IMMEDIATE THREAT TO BORDER SECURITY EVEN >THOUGH YUGOSLAVIA DOES NOT RECOGNIZE MACEDONIA WHICH DECLARED ITS >INDEPENDENCE THREE YEARS AGO. > >MR. KRUZEL SAYS A LONG-TERM SOLUTION TO BORDER TENSIONS MUST >INCLUDE BELGRADE'S RECOGNITION OF MACEDONIAN SOVEREIGNTY AND >DECLARE IT HAS NO TERRITORIAL AMBITIONS AGAINST MACDONIA. HE >SAYS SANCTIONS SHOULD NOT BE LIFTED ON SERBIA AND MONTENEGRO >UNTIL THEY MEET SUCH A DEMAND. > >LANDLOCKED MACEDONIA IS BEING HURT BY INTERNATIONAL SANCTIONS ON >SERBIA -- WHICH HAS BEEN A KEY TRADING PARTNER -- AND BY GREECE. >ATHENS ALSO DOES NOT RECOGNIZE MACEDONIAN SOVEREIGNTY COMPLAINING >THE STATE'S NAME IMPLIES A CLAIM ON THE NORTHERN GREEK PROVINCE >OF THE SAME NAME. (SIGNED) > >NEB/SD > >12-Nov-94 8:43 PM EST (0143 UTC) >NNNN > >Source: Voice of America Jay Wise johnwise@midway.uchicago.edu 1215 East Hyde Park Boulevard Max Mason House 108 Chicago, IL 60615 (312) 702-4215 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 12:07:59 EET Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Papadimitriou Dimitris Organization: IESL-FORTH, P.O.Box 1527, Heraklio, Crete, Greece 711 10 tel: +30(81)239757, fax: +30(81)239735, tlx: 262389 CCI Subject: Re: REUTER: Znaete li neshto poveke za ova? In-Reply-To: <01HJF84UN0US0021NY@GRGBOX.FORTHNET.GR>; from "Zoya Naskova" at Nov 12, 94 3:12 am > > Hijacker lets passengers off Olympic plane > > ATHENS, Nov 8 (Reuter) - All 69 passengers of a hijacked Olympic Airways > Boeing 737-400 were released at Salonika airport on Tuesday, a Greek civil > aviation official told Reuters. > ``It is a single hijacker and he has let all passengers go,'' the > official at Salonika's Macedonia airport said. > MORE REUTER > > > Transmitted: 94-11-08 07:26:46 EST > HIJACKED GREEK AIRLINER LANDS AT SALONICA, NORTHERN GREECE--A Greek > Olympic Airways plane hijacked today above the former Yugoslav republic of > Macedonia has landed at the northern Greek airport of Salonica, airport > officials said. The plane, carrying 68 or 69 passengers and eight crew was > commandeered by gunmen while on a flight from Dusseldorf to Athens. (6816) > As far as the newspapers here in Greece wrote, the hijacker was not armed and hijacked the airplane because he had swallowed his golden cross and was afraid that if the plane wouldn't land soon, he would die. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 11:46:23 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: Muzika ++ In-Reply-To: <9411112236.AA25026@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Daniel Veljanovski" at Nov 11, 94 05:34:07 pm Zdravo, > > Dali Ulm e daleku od Darmstadt? NJIT me praka sledniot semestar tamu da > go zemam, poslediot voedno. Primen sum, i cekam samo na pasos, posto > brkam Makedonski i Amerikanski vo isto vreme, ama nekako vremenski sum > tight, pa ima teoretski sansi i toa da me zezne na kraj... > Darmstadt, Darmstadt, where the hell is Darmstadt ? Treba da vidam na avtokarta kolku kilometri e toa oddalecheno od mene, kje se chueme za toa. Studirash elec.eng. ? Na koj odsek ( institut, smer) si ? Jas sum sega vo 5 semestar i pred mene imam ushte 4 semestri. Inaku jas sum na mikroelektronika. Kje bidesh nov chlen na amerikanskoto opshtestvo. That's cool man ! ( Perhaps ). Unaku fakultetot po elektro pri UU dve godini po red beshe prv na rating listata vo germanija ( spored Spiegel ). Za ovaa godina nemam infoemacii. > Aj, pa moze i ke se vidime vo Deutch.... Why not, bash bi bilo ubavo. Sekako kje treba da se najde termin koj na dvajcata ni odgovara, no bidejki ti si tamo cel semestar ( ako bidesh ) siguren sum deka kje se najde vreme i mozhnost. > > Daniel > Pozdrav Alex ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 13:43:10 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Re: EKV > Subject: Re: EKV > > Kiril, my Macedonian is weak since I only know Russian. Could > you translate for those of us who are "innocent" of Macedonian? > pozdrav Do you need a translation of the message about "EKV", or you mean in general? Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 13:43:29 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Before the rain > HOLLYWOOD (Variety) - Milcho Manchevski's ``Before the Rain'' will be > Macedonia's first official entry for the 67th Academy Awards. The film, to be > distributed by Gramercy, stars Katrin Cartlidge, Rade Serbedzja, Gregoire > Colin and Labina Mitevska. It is a co-production between Aim Productions, Noe > Productions and Macedonia's Vardar Film. Producers are Cedomir Kolar, Judy > Counihan, Sam Taylor and Cat Villiers. Koga sme vekje kaj Before the rain, CD-to od Anastazija e vekje izdadeno i imav prilika da go chujam soundtrack-ot (seushte nemam nabaveno kopija za mene). Muzikata e navistina odlichna, so toa shto mora da se priznae deka e mnogu poefektna vo kombinacija so filmot. Duri bi rekol deka ako nekoj prvin ja chue muzikata, bez da go ima gledano filmot, kje ima mnogu poslab vpechatok, od onoj shto bi go dobil ako go napravi obratnoto. Zatoa, gledajte go prvin filmot! Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 13:44:20 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: bit.listsrv Sasha reche: > 1. Dali sakame da ja stavime MAKEDON na NewsNet? Ova e prvo > i najvazhno prashanje. Se drugo kje bide lesno ako se > slozhime za ova. Da. > 2. Ako ja stavime MAKEDON na NewsNet dali ima dobrovolci > koi mozhat i sakaat da se zafatat okolu technichkoto > organiziranje? Jas sum za, no, ne znam kako mozham da pomognam od ovde. > Ova beshe toa shto sakav da go kazham. Bidete site mnogu pozdraveni od > vrnezhliva Holandija (more kakva vrnezliva, celo vreme istura) i se > nadevam deka naskoro kje se chueme na NewsNet. Ne spomnuvaj. I vo Skopje e isto deneska. Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimce - vkire@lotus.mk =I cant slow down, like a river= = Bojmija 8/24 =kvidimce@a1.news.mk- I'm flowing, on and on... = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone = Someway, somehow, I'll find = - Republic of Macedonia- +389-91-411-125 - where I'm going someday.. - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 16:07:06 GMT Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: M Petkovski Subject: Re: Vuko Taskovich > From: "Vladimir M. Ognenovski" > In addition, Vuko was featured in Nova Makedonija as a prominent > architect in the US,strong patriot, and potential investor > in Macedonia. His family is well known among stari Bitolchani. > > Vlatko > There was an Oto Tashkovich - a prominent architect in USA, the guy who was involved in the Skopje Sheraton business (BTW, does anybody know what happened at the end of that story?). Now, are we talking about the same person or about a clan (assuming that Gligor is the third one). And also, I cannot understand why everyone investing in Macedonia is automatically labelled as a strong patriot. I think that those people are just trying to make some money over there and that is perfectly OK and they don't need the image of saints'n'saviors (RE: the explanations that he was a great MAC, that his original name is actually Tashkovski etc.). If we are trying to build a modern (i.e. normal) country we should provide a system which will attract foreign investments. Today one has to be either a strong patriot or an experienced criminal to put some money in RM. I am not saying that the Taskovichs belong to any of these groups but, considering the reputation of our govt (and Nova Makedonia as a part of it), I am a bit sceptical whenever they are drumming loud about patriotizm. Mihail -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mihail Petkovski, University of Sheffield, Department of Civil & Structural Engineering, Mappin Street, Sheffield S1 4DU, UK Tel. (0114) 2825 071; Fax. (0114) 2728 910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 12:14:07 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List Comments: Cannot convert by in following Received line. Comments: Received: by oldwoman (1.38.193.4/CEANET.2.0.1) id AA16399; Mon, 14 Nov 1994 18:03:34 +0100 From: Zarko Stankovski Subject: za imeto Zdravo zivo, Na mojot E-mail deka imeto Nova Repebluka Makedonija ne me sokira imase desetine reakcijii, pa ce si dozvolom da napisam uste nekoj zbor. Za da ne vi go i ne si go gubam vremeto, ce odgovoram samo na sto mislam deka e bitno. Kako i site vie i jas mislam deka Makedonija taka si se vika i taka ima pravo i deka nikoj nema pravo da i go uskratuva toa pravo. No svetot e kakov sto e i Makedonija e vo ovaa situacija, koja sto i e na steta, pa treba da najde nekoe resenie, i mene mi se cini deka ona e najzainteresirana da se najde prifatlivo resenie i da se izleze od corsokakaot. Trojnoto ime ne e moj predlog, niti jas go podrzuvam. Samo procitav deka e toe del od eden paket predlog, za koj sto predpostavuvam deka treba da gi normalizira odnosite so Grcija (Elada) i so svetskite organizacii. Zosto imeto NRM, pazi istata skratenica kako za ASNOMSKA Makedonija, ne me sokira? Da probame da go izdvoime bitnoto od nebitnoto i faktite od interpretaciite: FAKT: Grcija se protivi sto nasata tatkovina se vika Makedonija, i izjavuva daka ne se soglasuva da vo nasete ime figurira zborot Makedonija. Zatoa se koristi so celoto svoe vlijanie vo megunarodnite institucii i voveduva embargo. INTERPRETACIJA (moja a sigurno globalno i vasa). Grcija so toa saka da ja destabilizira Makedonija, so nadez deka toa ce dovede do vracanje na Makedonija vo Srbija, ili nekakva podelba pri sto Makedonija bi isceznala, ili ako drzavava sepak ostane, da nema nikakva referenca na Makedonija. Taka ako nema Makedonija, nema Makedonci. Ako nema Makedonci vo Makedonija (Republika Skopje), uste pomalku ima vo Egejska Makedonija. Imajci go ova vo vid, predlogot da na naseto ime si go dodame zborot Nova i ako uspeeme da go nametneme ova resenie, jas mislam deka e toa potpoln poraz za Grcija, zatoa sto vo ovoj slucaj nie pravime formalna koncesija, a oni bitna - da ne povtoruvam zosto. Site onie sto mi drzea lekcii po lingvistika, da gi podsetam za eden gramaticki element: vo imeto Nova Republika Makedonija, pridavkata NOVA se odnesuva na REPUBLIKA, sto e nesto sosema drugo od Republika Nova Makedonija. Nesto sosema drugo, bev prijatno iznenadev za vikendov koga izlegov da se prosetam niz gradov, da vidam deka Pariz e poln so reklami za "Before the Rain", no ne znam zosto se vika taka a ne "Avant la pluie". Ce pocne da se prikazuva vo sreda. v Zarko ----------------------------------------------------- Rekov deka ce se vozdrzam od polemiki, no moram malku. Vo sekoj slicaj ona sto e bitno e nad crtata, ova sto sledi mozete i da go preskoknete. Povecemina mi prigovoraa na mojata lista na iminja na drzavi, tvrdeci deka "toa ne e isto", i deka se raboti pred se za lingvisticki prevodi. Da sum jas germanski lokal-patriot megu drugoto bi rekol: "Ne doaga vo obzir da ne vikaat Nemacka. Na nivniot jazik toa e pogrdno ime, ako deneska prifatime da ne vikaat Nem(c)i, utre ce ne narecat 'Cori, zadutre mozda i Beztasaklii, zosto da ne, ako sega im popustime. Kobajagi toa bilo zatoa sto ne ni go razbirale jazikot, ako e taka zosto Turcite ne gi vikaat Nemci, a? itn itn " Gledam deka povecemina ne go razbraa moeto spomnuvanje na argumentot Bretanja - Velika Britanija, no ne e vazno, me mrzi da objasnuvam. Nekoi me vikaat Zharko, treba li da im se lutam? >Koga li ke prestane ova? Koga li makedonskite politichki partii ke imaat >zaednichka platforma shto se odnesuva do najvazhnite nacionalni interesi, >npr. nadvoreshnata politika ? E ako dojdat do ova, duri togash ke >mozheme da "pokazheme zabi". Ako partiite uspeat da dojdat do zaednicka platforma za nadvoresnata politika, mozda ce dojdat i do zaednicka platforma za ekonomskata politika, i za kulturnata i za sportskata i za zdravstvenata i za ekoloskata i za site, pa togas nema ni da ima potreba da ima povece partii i se ce bide poednostavno. Neznam dali tocno go razbrav primerot na Goce za 2000DM plata i tugiot gazda. Jas ne veruvam deka makedonskiot gazda ce mi dade pogolema plata od stranskiot, od nekakvi patriotski pricini. Jas mislam deka i edniot i drugiot se ce storat za da mi dadat najmala plata sto mozat. Inaku, makedonskiot gazda, ako e mal gazda, najverojatno profitot ce go investira vo Makedonija, inaku i on verovatno ce saka da se diverzificira i verojatno ce gleda da investira i nadvor, sto e sigurno sigurno e..... >Ako tie ne vikaat Republika Skopje - nie niv Republika Atina, >tie ja blokiraat granicata - nie ja blokirame granicata. Ako tie go blokiraat nasiot priem vo megunarodni institucii - nie da go blokirame nivniot, ako oni ja blokiraat ekonomskata pomos za nas - nie za niv, ako nivni voeni avioni navleguvaat vo nasa teriotorija - nasite vo nivna .... nesto mi fali vo logikava. Vo sekoj slucaj ako nasata nafta mora da odi preku Burgas i Drac, i nivnata neka odi od tamu. Neka puknat od maka. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 13:22:26 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: Vuko Taskovich In-Reply-To: <199411141642.LAA31224@tequesta.gate.net> On Mon, 14 Nov 1994, M Petkovski wrote: > > From: "Vladimir M. Ognenovski" > > > In addition, Vuko was featured in Nova Makedonija as a prominent > > architect in the US,strong patriot, and potential investor > > in Macedonia. His family is well known among stari Bitolchani. > > > > Vlatko > > > > There was an Oto Tashkovich - a prominent architect in USA, the guy who > was involved in the Skopje Sheraton business (BTW, does anybody know > what happened at the end of that story?). Now, are we talking about the > same person or about a clan (assuming that Gligor is the third one). Vuko and Oto are brothers. Gligor is Vuko's son and therefore Oto's nephew. Sheraton project seems dead because of lack of investements. Korean company Daewoo seems interested in opening a Hilton, tough. > > And also, I cannot understand why everyone investing in Macedonia is > automatically labelled as a strong patriot. They should though, considering that investing there is considered highly risky:-) :-) I don't think the people in question here were labeled patriotic because of their investements but rather because of their intensive engagement in lobbying for Macedonia at every level. Vuko's the one that organized the famous overflying of Manhattan by an airplane with the banner "Macedonia for Macedonians" while tens of thousands of Greeks were protesting against Macedonia on the ground. I think that those > people are just trying to make some money over there and that is > perfectly OK and they don't need the image of saints'n'saviors (RE: the > explanations that he was a great MAC, that his original name is > actually Tashkovski etc.). > Not fair. You shouldn't judge people on appearances only. > If we are trying to build a modern (i.e. normal) country we should > provide a system which will attract foreign investments. Today one has > to be either a strong patriot or an experienced criminal to put some > money in RM. Exactly what I said before. I am not saying that the Taskovichs belong to any of these > groups but, considering the reputation of our govt (and Nova Makedonia as a > part of it), I am a bit sceptical whenever they are drumming loud about > patriotizm. > > Mihail > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Mihail Petkovski, University of Sheffield, > Department of Civil & Structural Engineering, > Mappin Street, Sheffield S1 4DU, UK > Tel. (0114) 2825 071; Fax. (0114) 2728 910 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Slavko ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 19:08:27 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Pratenici PRATENICI VO SOBRANIETO NA REPUBLIKA MAKEDONIJA (spored "Nova Makedonija") +---------------------+-----+-----------------------------+--------------+ | OPSHTINA | I.E.| PRATENIK | PARTIJA | +---------------------+-----+-----------------------------+--------------+ | Berovo | 001 | Mitko Ilijevski | SZM | | Bitola | 002 | Slobodan Najdovski | SZM | | Bitola | 003 | Jakim Ivanovski | SZM | | Bitola | 004 | Blagoj Stefanovski | SZM | | Bitola | 005 | Kire Vidimche | SZM | | Bitola | 006 | Naum Simjanovski | SZM | | Bitola | 007 | Jorgo Shundovski | SZM | | Bitola | 008 | Veljo Tantarov | SZM | | Bitola | 009 | Slavko Kotevski | SZM | | Bitola | 010 | Zhivko Jankulovski | SZM | | Makedonski Brod | 011 | Petre Trajanovski | SZM | | Valandovo | 012 | Nano Ruzhin | SZM | | Vinica | 013 | Mirko Pecov | SZM | | Gevgelija | 014 | Boris Kostakev | SZM | | Gevgelija | 015 | Gjorgji Atanasov | SZM | | Gostivar | 016 | Mirko Lazarevski | N.K. | | Gostivar | 017 | Rufi Osmani | N.K. | | Gostivar | 018 | Ferid Musovski | SZM | | Gostivar | 019 | Kenan Hasipi | DPTM/PDA-IP | | Gostivar | 020 | Mersel Biljali | NDP | | Gostivar | 021 | Sefedin Haruni | PDP | | Debar | 022 | Gazmend Ajderaga | PDP | | Delchevo | 023 | Mirko Ivanov | SZM | | Delchevo | 024 | Zdravko Stojkovski | SZM | | Demir Hisar | 025 | Nakje Stojanovski | SZM | | Kavadarci | 026 | Stojan Andov | SZM | | Kavadarci | 027 | Dzvonko Karov | SZM | | Kavadarci | 028 | Pancho Minov | SZM | | Kichevo | 029 | Vane Naumoski | SZM | | Kichevo | 030 | Nikolina Trajanoska | SZM | | Kichevo | 031 | Sali Ramadan | N.K. | | Kochani | 032 | Arso Bozhinovski | SP | | Kochani | 033 | Ilija Karov | SZM | | Kochani | 034 | Todosija Paunov | SZM | | Kratovo | 035 | Ljubisav Ivanov | SP | | Kriva Palanka | 036 | Aleksandar Jakimovski | SZM | | Kriva Palanka | 037 | Dane Miloshevski | SZM | | Krushevo | 038 | Risto Markovski | SZM | | Kumanovo | 039 | Dragoljub Popovikj | SZM | | Kumanovo | 040 | Dragan Mitevski | SZM | | Kumanovo | 041 | Slobodan Bogdanovski | SZM | | Kumanovo | 042 | Persida Malinska | SZM | | Kumanovo | 043 | Aleksandar Ivanovski | SDSM | | Kumanovo | 044 | Hisni Shakjiri | N.K. | | Kumanovo | 045 | Blagoj Stojkovski | SZM | | Kumanovo | 046 | Branko Arsovski | SZM | | Negotino | 047 | Lazar Dimov | N.K. | | Ohrid | 048 | Marijan Kotlar | SZM | | Ohrid | 049 | Jane Angelovski | SZM | | Ohrid | 050 | Dimitrija Vrevezovski | SZM | | Ohrid | 051 | Blagoja Siljanovski | SZM | | Prilep | 052 | Rubincho Belchevski | SZM | | Prilep | 053 | Simon Naumovski | SZM | | Prilep | 054 | Jordan Bozhinovski | SZM | | Prilep | 055 | Risto Nikolovski | SZM | | Prilep | 056 | Dimche Nastoski | SZM | | Prilep | 057 | Alil Dzhaferoski | SZM | | Prilep | 058 | Petar Talmdzhioski | SZM | | Probishtip | 059 | Dushan Nikolovski | SZM | | Radovish | 060 | Slavko Chapov | SZM | | Radovish | 061 | Vancho Chifliganec | SZM | | Resen | 062 | Aleksandar Geshtakovski | SZM | | Resen | 063 | Mitko Ristevski | SZM | | Sveti Nikole | 064 | Slobodan Danevski | LP | | Struga | 065 | Stojche Kovachevski | SZM | | Struga | 066 | Rami Tuda | NDP | | Struga | 067 | Dimitar Trpenoski | SZM | | Strumica | 068 | Risto Masev | SZM | | Strumica | 069 | Tushe Goshev | SZM | | Strumica | 070 | Risto Trajkov | SDPM | | Strumica | 071 | Boris Palov | SZM | | Strumica | 072 | Dragan Gjorgjiev | SZM | | Tetovo | 073 | Arben Dzhaferi | N.K. | | Tetovo | 074 | Abduljadi Vejseli | NDP | | Tetovo | 075 | Tomislav Stojanovski | DPM | | Tetovo | 076 | Mirko Tripunoski | SZM | | Tetovo | 077 | Jovan Srbinovski | SZM | | Tetovo | 078 | Abdurahman Aliti | PDP | | Tetovo | 079 | Hisen Ramadani | N.K. | | Tetovo | 080 | Zekjir Kadriu | NDP | | Tetovo | 081 | Dzheladin Murati | PDP | | Titov Veles | 082 | Ace Kocevski | SZM | | Titov Veles | 083 | Milcho Trajkov | SZM | | Titov Veles | 084 | Peco Stojanovski | SZM | | Titov Veles | 085 | Jovan Nikolov | SZM | | Shtip | 086 | Panche Nasev | SZM | | Shtip | 087 | Sande Davchev | SZM | | Shtip | 088 | Sande Dzhambazovski | SZM | | Gazi Baba (Skopje)| 089 | Ivan Bojkov | SZM | | Gazi Baba (Skopje)| 090 | Blazhe Filipovski | SZM | | Gazi Baba (Skopje)| 091 | Ljupcho Meshkov | SZM | | Gazi Baba (Skopje)| 092 | Kiril Spasovski | SZM | | Gazi Baba (Skopje)| 093 | Ismet Ramadani | PDP | | Gazi Baba (Skopje)| 094 | Ilija Gocevski | SZM | | Karposh (Skopje)| 095 | Zoran Krstevski | SZM | | Karposh (Skopje)| 096 | Atanas Vangelov | SZM | | Karposh (Skopje)| 097 | Slave Naumovski | SZM | | Karposh (Skopje)| 098 | Ljubomir Chadikovski | SZM | | Karposh (Skopje)| 099 | Vladimir Stankovski | SZM | | Karposh (Skopje)| 100 | Vlade Davitkovski | SZM | | Karposh (Skopje)| 101 | Nikola Popovski | SZM | | Karposh (Skopje)| 102 | Naser Ziberi | PDP | | Kisela Voda (Skopje)| 103 | Zore Temelkovski | SZM | | Kisela Voda (Skopje)| 104 | Dimitrija Popovski | SZM | | Kisela Voda (Skopje)| 105 | Nikola Popovski | SZM | | Kisela Voda (Skopje)| 106 | Ignatie Bogdanovski | SZM | | Kisela Voda (Skopje)| 107 | Marijan Nachevski | SZM | | Kisela Voda (Skopje)| 108 | Vladimir Sokolovski | SZM | | Kisela Voda (Skopje)| 109 | Nazmi Maljikji | PDP | | Kisela Voda (Skopje)| 110 | Zoran Shapurikj | SZM | | Centar (Skopje)| 111 | Ljubomir Popovski | SZM | | Centar (Skopje)| 112 | Ilinka Mitreva | SZM | | Centar (Skopje)| 113 | Tito Petkovski | SZM | | Centar (Skopje)| 114 | Kiro Popovski | SZM | | Centar (Skopje)| 115 | Mevljan Tairi | PDP | | Chair (Skopje)| 116 | Ratka Kuljan-Zografska | SZM | | Chair (Skopje)| 117 | Jovan Lazarev | SZM | | Chair (Skopje)| 118 | Abduraf Prusi | PDP | | Chair (Skopje)| 119 | Faik Abdi | PCER | | Chair (Skopje)| 120 | Sami Ibraimi | PDP | +---------------------------+-----------------------------+--------------+ SZM - Sojuz za Makedonija (SDSM+LP+SP)..........................091 N.K. - Nezavisen Kandidat........................................007 DPTM - Demokratska Partija na Turcite vo Makedonija + PDA-IP - Partija za Demokratska Akcija - Islamski Pat..............001 NDP - Narodna Demokratska Partija...............................004 PDP - Partija za Demokratski Prosperitet........................010 SP - Socijalistichka Partija...................................002 SDSM - Socijal-Demokraski Sojuz na Makedonija....................001 LP - Liberalna Partija.........................................001 SDPM - Socijal-Demokratska Partija na Makedonija.................001 DPM - Demokratska Partija na Makedonija so sedishte vo Tetovo...001 PCER - Partija za Celosna Emancipacija na Romite.................001 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Total..............................................................120 KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 20:17:28 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Handball - scores Prva makedonska rakometna liga. Deveto kolo: Pelister - Vardar Vatrostalna... 28 : 23 Ognomak - Gostivar............. 29 : 23 Struga Komerc - Shevro Kumanovo...... 27 : 25 Partizan (G) - Tikvesh.............. 19 : 17 Mladost - Povardarie........... 21 : 22 Idno Deseto kolo: Vardar Vatrostalna- Povardarie Borec - Mladost Tikvesh - Tutunski Kombinat Shevro Kumanovo - Partizan (G) Gostivar - Struga Komerc Pelister - Ognomak M. Tabela: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Tim U P N I D : P B ------------------------------------------------------------------ 1. Borec 8 8 0 0 212 : 137 16 2. Pelister 9 7 0 2 246 : 188 14 3. Vardar Vatrostalna 9 7 0 2 237 : 206 14 4. Povardarie 9 7 1(0) 2 217 : 187 14 5. Ognomak M 9 7 0 2 226 : 198 14 6. Mladost 9 3 1(0) 5 200 : 188 6 7. Tutunski Kombinat 8 3 0 5 190 : 183 6 8. Struga Komerc 8 3 0 6 162 : 203 6 9. Gostivar 9 2 1(1) 6 194 : 232 5 10. Tikvesh 9 2 0 7 169 : 219 4 11. Partizan (G) 9 2 0 7 175 : 234 4 12. Shevro Kumanovo (-1) 9 0 1(1) 7 154 : 212 0 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 13:44:40 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: bit.listsrv > Zdravo na site, > > Po moe mislenje, ako MAKEDON se stavi na bitnet ke stani haoticna grupa > isto kako i anm. Bi se slozil MAKEDON da se stavi na bitnet samo ako ima > nekoja druga paralelna grupa kako sto e sega MAKEDON. Jas licno nemam > vreme da citam gluposti vo vrska so dve ili tri temi koi se povtoruvaat > den za den so meseci. Ako se ima soodveten editor (moderator) i ako ima dovolno poraki na makedonski, veruvam deka situacijata vo grupata nema da bide ni priblizhno kako onaa vo a.n.m. BTW, govorime za Internet (USENET) grupa, a ne za Bitnet. :) Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 20:18:04 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Basketball - scores Mak partner A1 kosharkarska liga. Osmo kolo: Centar - Vardar............... 80 : 81 MZT Skopje - Godel Rabotnichki.... 68 : 72 Idno Deveto kolo: Gostivar - Zhito Vardar Godel Rabotnichki - Alumina Nemetali Ograzhden- MZT Skopje Vardar - Makedonija 91 Kochani Delikates - Centar Tabela: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Tim U P I D : P B ------------------------------------------------------------------ 1. Godel Rabotnichki 8 8 0 757 : 627 16 2. MZT Skopje 8 6 2 737 : 564 14 3. Delikates 7 6 1 598 : 508 13 4. Vardar 8 4 4 633 : 626 12 5. Zhito Vardar 7 4 3 626 : 603 11 6. Nemetali Ograzhden 7 3 4 591 : 592 10 7. Gostivar 7 2 5 557 : 582 9 8. Makedonija 91 7 2 5 550 : 653 9 9. Centar 8 1 7 553 : 668 9 10. Alumina 7 1 6 498 : 677 8 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 20:18:56 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Tashkovich & Sheraton Mihail wrote: > > In addition, Vuko was featured in Nova Makedonija as a prominent > > architect in the US,strong patriot, and potential investor > > in Macedonia. His family is well known among stari Bitolchani. > > > > Vlatko > > There was an Oto Tashkovich - a prominent architect in USA, the guy who Vuka Tashkovich is probably Oto's cousin or something... > was involved in the Skopje Sheraton business (BTW, does anybody know > what happened at the end of that story?). Now, are we talking about the > same person or about a clan (assuming that Gligor is the third one). Oto != Vuka. Anyway, it's true that Oto Tashkovish was interested in investing into a Skopje Sheraton Hotel, but he didn't succeed to get the license, because some other (third party ;) architects weren't too much happy about it. One of the most "eminent" architects in Skopje (I'm not sure, but I think that he was the president of the Architects' society or something) had other plans about the same place (Sheraton Hotel was supposed to be build near the Vardar River and the Old Bridge, between the Central Post Office and the City Square "Macedonia"). This guy had a plan for building a so called "Society Centar" where people should gather and all those socialistic things. Finally, Oto made a proposal - a TV duel between him and this president of the architects. Oto was by far more persuasive, and this guy looked like a little yellow chicken that is jealous to the old cock. :) Oto also tried to fought for justice into a court. But nothing happen, I'm not even sure if the court reached a verdict, but I know that he promised that he wouldn't give up. Skopje does not have any decent hotel and Sheraton would've been a first step towards future investments, and all that went to hell only because of the jealousy of someone. > And also, I cannot understand why everyone investing in Macedonia is > automatically labelled as a strong patriot. I think that those > people are just trying to make some money over there and that is > perfectly OK and they don't need the image of saints'n'saviors (RE: the > explanations that he was a great MAC, that his original name is > actually Tashkovski etc.). I couldn't possibly say it better. :) Anyway, when we started gossiping ;), let's finish it. Family Tashkovich is a old Skopje's family. It's true that they were Tashkovski 'till the First Yugoslavia, when the Serbs made them change their surname into Tashkovich. After the World War II, Oto's father emigrated to USA, while Oto's mother took him and his brother to Bitola (Oto's mother was from Bitola). When he and his brother became adults, they emigrated to USA, too. Oto graduated architecture, just like his father and became a world-known specialist for hotels and airports. That's all I know. :) Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 00:17:14 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Igor Petrovski Subject: Re: Predlog i Diskusija - A.N.M. & Makedon - In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 12 Nov 1994 15:41:00 +0700." <199411121442.AA11742@kekec.e5.ijs.si> > Ovaa grupa bi bila normalna, ne kako alt.news.macedonia koja e taka > narechena alternativna grupa. Kje navedam samo deka povekjeto voopshto > ne gi prenesuvaat alternativnite grupi. Na primer jas voopshto nemam > dostap do ANM, bidejkji na site mesta kade shto sum rabotel do sega > alternativnite grupi bile nepristapni. Edna od prichinite e i shto > povekjeto od alternativni grupi se od tipot "alt.sex.animals...". So > ova ne sakam da go namalam znachenito na ANM za makedonskata komuna na > internet. Imeno vo momentot koga beshe kreirana ANM nemavme drug > izbor. Verojatno site znaete za neuspehot da se kreira > soc.culture.macedonia (scm). Od ova proizleguva deka ANM ima mnogu > ogranichen obem i pristap, samo pogolemite univerziteti i organizacii > imaat pristap do nea. Od druga strana grupite od tipot na > bit.listserv, se smetaat za seriozni grupi i se mnogu po dostapni za > shiroka publika. Jas mozam da ti kazam kako e ovde - od bit.* grupite nemame niedna, verojatno zatoa sto istata informacija mozes da ja dobies preku bitnet listserverite. Od alt.* grupite ima 29 (megju koi, na moe baranje, i alt.news.macedonia). I od kade takvi predrasudi za alt.* hierarhijata - bas sega proveruvav na eden javno dostapen nntp server vo germanija i od 1177 alt.* grupi koi gi ima 8 imaat sex vo naslovot. > > 1. Dali sakame da ja stavime MAKEDON na NewsNet? Ova e prvo > i najvazhno prashanje. Se drugo kje bide lesno ako se > slozhime za ova. I jas mislam deka e ova klucnoto prasanje. Jas glasam protiv - ednostavno ne gledam sto dobiva MAKEDON od toa. Ne mislam deka bit.makedon e mnogu 'ponormalna' grupa od a.n.m. > > 4. Nema potreba da tehnichkite detali se diskutiraat na makedon. > Isto taka mislam deka e i podobro da ne diskutirame mnogu tehnichki > detali na makedon i vo javnost. Imeno mozhe mnogu lesno da se > sluchi da se javi otpor protiv formiranje na vakva grupa, i da > se povtori situacijata shto nastana pri obidot za formiranje na SCM. > Zatoa ednash koga kje odluchime, i ke se formira edna rabotna > grupa, kje mora brzo i efikasno da se sprovede namerata, bez Ne znam kolku e ova bitno. Prasanje e koja e postapkata za kreiranje na bit.* grupi. Ako e ista kao za alt.* hiearahijata, togas nikoj ne moze da ne spreci. Ako e ista kako za ostanatite (ne alt.* :) grupi, togas tesko ke ja isterame rabotata - pak ne ceka RFD i CFV i glasanje i site raboti, i pak ke bide isto kako i za s.c.m - nisto. Koga sme vekje kaj toa, kolku vreme treba da pomine za da moze povtorno da se glasa za s.c.m? Ili ke cekame i Makedonija da odi na internet pa da glasaat i lugje od tamu? > > 5. Posleniot problem e deka mozhe da se pojavi > potreba da se stavi editor na makedon. Imeno sega nema editor i > sekoja poraka bez nikakva kontrola se distribuira do site > pretplatnici. Ako se otvorime kon javnosta togash mozhe da se izmeni > situacijata. Ova znachi deka mozhe da se pojvi potreba da nekoj > ja vrshi taa obemna rabota na editiranje na porakite. Mislam deka ova e najgolemiot problem. Dosega distribucijata i pravoto za prakjanje na makedon e ogranicena na clenovite. Ako sekoj user (da ne recam Grk :) na Usenet moze da ni prati eden kup bezvezni poraki, toa ke ja svede MAKEDON na nivoto na a.n.m. Edinstven izlez e moderated lista/grupa, ama treba nekoj (so dobra e-mail vrska i mnooogu slobodno vreme) da se nafati da cita i odobruva/odbiva kupista poraki na den. > > Sasha Konechni > maknws-l, makedon co-owner. Igor. -- Microsoft is not the answer. Microsoft is the question. NO is the answer. Big Nose Sucks. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 19:04:57 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Boris Soposki Subject: Happy thanksgiving Hi everybody! Since I'm leaving tommorow for vacation I just wanted to say Happy Thanksgiving to everybody on Makedon in USA. Enjoy the Ascii art. Pozdravi Boris o o$"oo "$ $ooo$$$$"""o$$oooo ooo $$"o"o o $"""oo $o"$""""""""o$"$"$$" "$"o$$"$o" "o "$o o""$o """ " " "o$ o$ ooo"""$$o$ " "$"" $ o " $ $"o o""o ""oo$$$""$"o " o"" $" " o$$ ""oo o"o" oo"$$$$ o " "o " o$ $"$ "o " "o $ o$ o" o"$$ "" " ""$ oo"$o $o$$$$$oo o$ "o$ "$o "$"o""o$$$ $$ $oo$$$$$$o$$$$$ o oo "o" ""oo ""oo$$"$ $$" o$" $$"""$oo$ oo$ o o" """ooooo """""o$o$"""" " """"ooooooo"" """"$$$$ooooooooooo$$$$ooo"" ,+*^^*+___+++_ ,*^^^^ ) _+* ^**+_ +^ _ _++*+_+++_, ) _+^^*+_ ( ,+*^ ^ \+_ ) { ) ( ,( ,_+--+--, ^) ^\ { (@) } f ,( ,+-^ __*_*_ ^^\_ ^\ ) {:;-/ (_+*-+^^^^^+*+*<_ _++_)_ ) ) / ( / ( ( ,___ ^*+_+* ) < < \ U _/ ) *--< ) ^\-----++__) ) ) ) ( ) _(^)^^)) ) )\^^^^^))^*+/ / / ( / (_))_^)) ) ) ))^^^^^))^^^)__/ +^^ ( ,/ (^))^)) ) ) ))^^^^^^^))^^) _) *+__+* (_))^) ) ) ))^^^^^^))^^^^^)____*^ \ \_)^)_)) ))^^^^^^^^^^))^^^^) (_ ^\__^^^^^^^^^^^^))^^^^^^^) ^\___ ^\__^^^^^^))^^^^^^^^)\\ ^^^^^\uuu/^^\uuu/^^^^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\ ___) >____) >___ ^\_\_\_\_\_\_\) ^^^//\\_^^//\\_^ ^(\_\_\_\) ^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^ ooo o"""oooo oooo""" $ """"o ooo"" o $ oooooo $o o"" $ oo" o oo"" o "o $$ o" o o o o " o $ o" o" ooo ooo " o "o o $ o" " o o o"$ o$ " o "o " $ $ " o o" $o"$$ $ "o "o o$ $ o" o o o"$$o" o " oo "o oo $ o" o $"$o"o$ o" o $"o o$ o" o $oo$ $ o " oo"o$ o" $ o "$"o$o$ o "o$o $ o" o" $o"o$ o o$o "$oo" $ $" $" o " o " " $" $ o$$ " o"o$ $ o $ $ " " "" o"o$ o $" o" " "o o "o"o o" o"o" $ o" o o oo"""o"" o" " $ " o "o o"" "$ "" o$ " $ " o"o" o$o $" o$$" "o o o"o" o " "" ooo"" ""oo " " "o" " ""$" oooo"" """""""""""""""""""" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 19:15:27 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Plamen Bliznakov Subject: Re: bmp Oliver writes... >Would anyone out there happen to have a .bmp of the macedonian >flag that i can put up as my background screen on my pc? I got good news and bad news :-) There is a .gif file prepared by Vlado Damjanovski available at the WWW page for Republic of Macedonia. I converted it for you (and anybody else who wants a .bmp file). The bad news is: 1) the resolution is pretty high for a PC screen : 1020 x 723 (you migth need to reduce it but the quality of the image would suffer) 2) the .bmp file is a big one : 738,538 Bytes. This is the reason I decided not to send it on Makedon :-) 3) The image is not exactly of the flag of the Republic of Macedonia (there are these blue seeds in the center of the sun - exactly as it is on the Sun from Vergina - which are missing from the official flag). The guys who worked on the image in Australia, though, don't have the time / desire to make the changes. Let me know if you want the .bmp file sent in a personal mail. An even better way to do it would be if you can grab the .gif image from the WWW page http://enws121.eas.asu.edu/places/Macedonia/republic/ and then convert it to .bmp on your computer. Regards, Plamen Plamen.Bliznakov@ASU.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 21:51:05 CST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Luben Todorouski Subject: Re: Vuko Taskovich In-Reply-To: <199411141641.KAA91817@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>; from "M Petkovski" at Nov 14, 94 4:07 pm This is all about same family, originaly from Resen. Their surname is Tasskovicc (similar to slovinian surnames) not Taskovic (like the serbian). I dont know the name of their father, but it is true that he was prominant architect (some of the buildings in Skopje are his creation). By the way, their father was active member of VMRO before and during the second world war. After the war I think he was prosecuted by the comunists so he fled to USA. His children are also architects and one of them The yunger one, was active with the Shereton Hotel in Skopje. I think that they are patriots, as their father was, I don't know much about their buissness abilties. But I'm positive that they don't have the money to invest in such big enterprise, most probably their intention is somehow to attract capital for the pipeline project. Missko za poveke informacii obrati se na Viktor Hristovski od IZIIS (drugar mi sto raboti so Bicko). Oni se rodnini. By the way dali znaes dali bi mozel nekako da stapam vo kontakt so IZIIS preku e-mail. Bube ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 22:54:46 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@WAVE.SCAR.UTORONTO.CA> Subject: Re: Military co-operation US/Macedonia (Radio VOA Report) In-Reply-To: <9411141600.AA23924@wave.scar.utoronto.ca> from "Jay Wise" at Nov 14, 94 02:56:05 am Jay Wise wrote: > So along came this VOA article forwarded from another MAKEDON > correspondent, and I thought it would be interesting to see some reactions > to it.I know a great many of you aren't PoliSci or International relations, > but I'm curious about what you think of Macedonian security policy, and > this initiative to work with the Americans. Or, if this a particularly > inane question asked by a shallow and ugly American, let me know that, too, > in a non-threatening and specifically non-flaming way. Thanks, everyone, > for your time and your patience; this discussion group is a wonderful > arrangement, and I've loved listening in... FIRST: The above is not inane and you are NOT an ugly American. At least lets not hope so, I don't like talking to ugly people. :) SECOND: The VOA article you re-posted was interesting. My view on the matter of Macedonian security is that the Republic of Macedonia (RoM) should welcome any initiative that would help Macedonian forces maintain peace and stability in the region, specifically along the border. With the agreement signed between the US and Macedonia allowing some Macedonian soldiers to be trained at US military academies, I can only see some good coming out of this initiative whereby the largest and strongest armed forces in the world are offering to train Macedonia's relatively poor and ill equipped army. I just hope that the soldiers don't get too used to the American "toys" (ICBMs, tanks, guns) while they are being trained and then get depressed when they return to Macedonia to find sling-shots and pebbles as their standard issue. :) When a giant in defence offers help to anyone - JUMP ON IT! Steve Saragil Toronto, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 22:10:46 CST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Luben Todorouski Subject: Re: Pratenici In-Reply-To: <199411150049.SAA17331@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>; from "Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija" at Nov 14, 94 7:08 pm > > PRATENICI VO SOBRANIETO NA REPUBLIKA MAKEDONIJA > (spored "Nova Makedonija") > > +---------------------+-----+-----------------------------+--------------+ > | OPSHTINA | I.E.| PRATENIK | PARTIJA | > +---------------------+-----+-----------------------------+--------------+ > | Titov Veles | 082 | Ace Kocevski | SZM | > | Titov Veles | 083 | Milcho Trajkov | SZM | > | Titov Veles | 084 | Peco Stojanovski | SZM | > | Titov Veles | 085 | Jovan Nikolov | SZM | > | Centar (Skopje)| 113 | Tito Petkovski | SZM | > > > KiRe ViDiMCHe > > Uste li e Veles titov !?!? Bog da cuva !!!! A so ovoj sostav i taka ke ostane. Za sramota. A gledam kaj mene Tito pak dobil. POSLE TITO TITO. Neka ni e sozdravje. Bube ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 23:16:02 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@WAVE.SCAR.UTORONTO.CA> Subject: TO: Slavko Mangovski Zdravo Slavko, How is everything down in sunny, balmy Ft.Lauderdale? I've been reading some of your postings meaning to reply and see how you are doing...but time is a constraint for me, never mind my poor memory. :) Not much happening in Toronto. Today was real warm though. Do you understand that it is the middle of November and today the temp. shot up to 18 C. This is unheard of. Usually we would have some snow activity by now. Let me count my blessings. Whats the temp. in Fa? We had municipal elections today and had some bad news for our Macedonian community. In Scarborough (where I live) a new mayor was voted in - Frank Foubert. This is the man that was against the flag raising at city hall last year and the man that went to greece paid by the gov't of greece - only to buy his support. WELL...now the greeks have a man in office and we will have a tough time with city hall for the next four years. At one city council meeting that discussed the flag raising issue, he called all of us attending "Skopjani" and "Vulgari" in GREEK!!!!! He also called us another dirty word in greek that ROUGHLY translated was along the same lines as "dirty nigger". This guy is trash and now we have to call him "Your worship" *PUKE* Otherwise...not much else happening here. :) Whats new in Ft.Lauderdale? Any picnics coming up? Keep in touch. Steve Saragil _________ _________/ \ ___ __/ \________/ \__ _/ -=* StEvE SaRaGiL *=- \____ / e-mail: 90saragi@wave.scar.utoronto.ca \__ | \_ | Association of Macedonian Students at the \_ / University of Toronto \ | c/o SCSC University of Toronto \ | 1265 Military Trail, Scarborough, Ontario | | M1C 1A4 CANADA | \__ e-mail: Macedonian_Association@UTCampusLife.org ___ / \ / \_/ / There's only ONE Macedonia & it's NOT Greek!_/ __ / ___ _____ ___ / / \ | __ / @ Solun \ \_ \_ \/\ \__| \ AMSUT Hotline / \_/ | \ \ \ \ / \ +1 416 / | \ \ | | \ \ 236-6979 _/ | \_ \ | | | \________/ \____\ \__/ \__| MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS! DA ZIVEE MAKEDONIJA! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 23:29:10 CST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Luben Todorouski Subject: Re: Delbi (belomorie) In-Reply-To: <199411101640.KAA36548@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>; from "Aleksandar Aleksov" at Nov 10, 94 5:36 pm > > Znaesh jas vo Makedonija sekogash mislev deka vo grcija samiot zbor > Makedonija e diskreditiran. Za oficijalnata politika neznam, no naviknat na > faktot deka grcite nekjat da chujat za neshto shto se vika Makedonija, bev > > > ama nisto ne im znaci. Postoenjeto na makedonska drzava e priznavanje > na faktot za okupacija na Makedonija od grcka strana i > > priznavanje na faktot za etnicko cistenje na istata (vo mnogu po surova > > forma otkolku vo Bosna). , etnicko cistenje koe seuste trae. Ako nie ne > > > > Bube > > > Tuka ti davam pravo ! > Pozdrav od > Alex > Mislev na Makedonija kako ime na administrativna celina. No ova e dobar povod da iznesam edno moe mislenje za idninata vo belomorskiot del na Makedonija. Imeno, situacijata nastanata so reaktiviranjeto na makedonskoto prasanje od strana na Atina moze da se pokazi i te kako kontra-produktivno za istata. Kako sto mozebi znaete, posle okupacijata na Makedonija Grckata vlada izvrsi naseluvanje na doselenici od razni kravi na svetot koi sto bas ne bea nacionalno identicni so naselenieto od toa sto navistina bi mozelo da bide Grcija. Den deneska taa razlika e prisutna. Na primer se uste nivnoto ucestvo vo politickiot zivot na zemjata e marginalen. Grckata propaganda moze da se pokaze kontra-produktivna so toa sto posebnosta lesno moze da izleze na videlo. Od druga strana kako sto iznesov porano Makedonija geografski e ekonomska celina. Ekonomskite interesi na site nejzini delovi se determinirani so ovoj fakt. Ili poprosto receno Rep. Makedonija mu treba na Solun isto tolku kolku Solun na Makedonija, taka sto interesite na bilo koj sto zivee vo Solun ke bidat svrteni poveke kon Makedonija otkolku kon Grcija. Toa moze da kreira atmosfera na zblizuvanje na steta na atinskite interesi i da rezultira najmalku vo ekonomska reunifikacija. Isto taka neminovniot poraz na Grcija vo odnos na makedonskoto prasanje ke ne dovede do pozicija na pokrenuvanje na prasanja koi dolgo vreme bea zamrznati na nasa steta. Cisto se cudam sto istite se uste ne se pokrenati. Treba da bidime pametni da go iskoristime momentot, koga seuste makedonskoto prasanje e otvoreno. Samo treba da istraeme vo site nasi stanovista (ne samo imeto tuku i simbolite i ustavot). A nadezta sto Francuzite i nekoi drugi vo EZ ja imaat za skoro zatvoranje na makedonskoto prasanje e cista iluzija. Za sreka istite odavna prestanaa da bidat nekoj faktor vo svetskata politika. Vistinskite svetski sili se poveke nakloneti kon nas. Situacijata moze da bide uste popovolna koga Rusija ke zastane na svoi noze. VREMETO E NA NASA STRANA, samo treba da bideme strplivi i da znaeme sto sakame. Pozdravi: Bube ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 01:24:37 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: EKV Just the one about EKV. I try to struggle first, and if that doesn't work, then ask for help. -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 On Mon, 14 Nov 1994, Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija wrote: > > Subject: Re: EKV > > > > Kiril, my Macedonian is weak since I only know Russian. Could > > you translate for those of us who are "innocent" of Macedonian? > > pozdrav > > Do you need a translation of the message about "EKV", > or you mean in general? > > Pozdrav, > KiRe ViDiMCHe > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - > = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = > = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = > - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 00:52:00 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Lubi Uzunovski Organization: CRS Online (Toronto, Ontario) Subject: Vuko Tashkovich Let me throw my two cents into the pot. Regarding Mihail's opinion, > "I cannot understand why everyone investing in Macedonia is > automatically labelled as a strong patriot. I think that those > people are just trying to make some money over there and that is > perfectly OK and they don't need the image of saints'n'saviors" I'd like to say this: A few years ago it was Vuko Tashkovich, along with Michael Radin of Australia, who were instrumental in generating the funds and going to the effort of finding advocates to represent Risto Sideropoulos and Tashko Bulis for their kangaroo trial in Athens. Vuko (who has precious little spare time) took on the resposibility and delivered. He did not do it for a profit, nor did he do it for any medals. Whether or not he is a hero or a saint is for you to decide, but I have to respect the man for his dedication and involvment. Lubi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 10:56:01 GMT Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: M Petkovski Subject: za imeto, za logika, za avionite ... Zarko, Ova jas go napisav, no kontekstot bese sosema poinakov, t.e. objasneto bese sto dobivame (ako bilo sto dobieme) ako se slozime so site gluposti na koi insistiraat grcite. > >Ako tie ne vikaat Republika Skopje - nie niv Republika Atina, > >tie ja blokiraat granicata - nie ja blokirame granicata. Sto se odnesuva do tvojata elaboracija na mojata logika: > > Ako tie go blokiraat nasiot priem vo megunarodni institucii - nie > da go blokirame nivniot, ako oni ja blokiraat ekonomskata pomos za nas - nie > za niv, ako nivni voeni avioni navleguvaat vo nasa teriotorija - nasite vo > nivna .... nesto mi fali vo logikava. Vo sekoj slucaj ako nasata nafta mora > da odi preku Burgas i Drac, i nivnata neka odi od tamu. Neka puknat od maka. > priznavam deka ne mozeme da go blokirame nivniot priem vo megjunarodnite organizacii nitu pak ekonomskata pomos - no, povtorno, megjunarodnite organizacii vo slucajot e KEBS (jaka muda) a pomosta e PHARE. Vo mojot komentar tokmu toa i go diskutirav - deka ne mozeme celata ekonomija da ja bazirame vrz pomos. Patem, tokmu poradi site blokadi, ovie denovi dobivame poveke pomos od bilo koga porano - a veruvam i vo idnina, i zatoa prvpat vo poslednite 20-tina godini markata e recisi nepromeneta poveke od edna godina. Sto se odnesuva do snabduvanjeto so nafta, nekoj rece deka i da imame najdobri odnosi so grcite - treba da se obezbedat alternativi. Neli te iznenaduva toa sto nikogas porano ne se pomislilo na zelaenicka linija za Bugarija? E toa bese "zbog naseg tradicionalnog prijateljstva sa Grchkom". I sega treba da du bime na glava toa da go socuvame i ponatamu (mislam dobrite vrski megju Srbija & Grcija)? Nemam nisto protiv dobrososedstvoto, ama za toa trebaat dvajca, neli? Sto se odnesuva do avionite - tie mozat i ponatamu da nadletuvaat, kako nad ovaa - taka i nad Nova Republika Makedonija. Avionite se samo dokaz na nivnata diplomatska nemokj - a ne na vojnata sila. Vprocem, avioni te nadletuvaat ako ne mozes da gi soboris. Sto se odnesuva do "pukanjeto od maka", ne mora grcite da nosat nafta od Burgas - ama nivnite kamioni mozat da odat vo Nish preku Bosilegrad (ako si go vozel toj pat, znaes deka e polesno da se donese nafta od Burgas). Ete Zarko, ne e problemot deka vo mojata logika nesto fali (a sigurno nesto fali), tuku vo toa sto sekoj si ima svoja logika. Mnogu pozdravi Mihail, P.S. Ona Nova Republika (namesto Nova Makedonija) e nekoj nov predlog na Butros & Butros ili nasa spekulacija okolu imeto? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mihail Petkovski, University of Sheffield, Department of Civil & Structural Engineering, Mappin Street, Sheffield S1 4DU, UK Tel. (0114) 2825 071; Fax. (0114) 2728 910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 15:27:05 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: Delbi (belomorie) In-Reply-To: <9411150535.AA02287@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Luben Todorouski" at Nov 14, 94 11:29:10 pm Zdravo, > Mislev na Makedonija kako ime na administrativna celina. No ova e dobar > povod da iznesam edno moe mislenje za idninata vo belomorskiot del na > Makedonija. Imeno, situacijata nastanata so reaktiviranjeto na makedonskoto > prasanje od strana na Atina moze da se pokazi i te kako kontra-produktivno > za istata. Kako sto mozebi znaete, posle okupacijata na Makedonija > Grckata vlada izvrsi naseluvanje na doselenici od razni kravi na svetot > koi sto bas ne bea nacionalno identicni so naselenieto od toa sto navistina > bi mozelo da bide Grcija. Den deneska taa razlika e prisutna. Na primer > se uste nivnoto ucestvo vo politickiot zivot na zemjata e marginalen. > Grckata propaganda moze da se pokaze kontra-produktivna so toa sto > posebnosta lesno moze da izleze na videlo. Od druga strana kako sto iznesov > porano Makedonija geografski e ekonomska celina. Ekonomskite interesi > na site nejzini delovi se determinirani so ovoj fakt. Ili poprosto receno > Rep. Makedonija mu treba na Solun isto tolku kolku Solun na Makedonija, > taka sto interesite na bilo koj sto zivee vo Solun ke bidat svrteni poveke > kon Makedonija otkolku kon Grcija. Toa moze da kreira atmosfera na > zblizuvanje na steta na atinskite interesi i da rezultira najmalku vo > ekonomska reunifikacija. Bi bilo ubavo, no ova vo momentov premnogu e ubavo za da bi bilo vistina, zneash "Sweet dreams". > > Isto taka neminovniot poraz na Grcija vo odnos na makedonskoto prasanje ^^^^^^^^^^^ Yeah !!! Hit them ! > ke ne dovede do pozicija na pokrenuvanje na prasanja koi dolgo vreme > bea zamrznati na nasa steta. Cisto se cudam sto istite se uste ne se Mislish ? Ako, na Makedonija i se potrebni optimisti, bidejki takvite davaat nadezh. Seriozno. > pokrenati. Treba da bidime pametni da go iskoristime momentot, koga seuste > makedonskoto prasanje e otvoreno. Samo treba da istraeme vo site nasi > stanovista (ne samo imeto tuku i simbolite i ustavot). A nadezta sto > Francuzite i nekoi drugi vo EZ ja imaat za skoro zatvoranje na makedonskoto > prasanje e cista iluzija. Za sreka istite odavna prestanaa da bidat nekoj > faktor vo svetskata politika. Vistinskite svetski sili se poveke nakloneti > kon nas. Situacijata moze da bide uste popovolna koga Rusija ke zastane na > svoi noze. VREMETO E NA NASA STRANA, samo treba da bideme strplivi i da znaeme sto sakame. > Sekoja strplivost ima kraj, se nadevam deka the amount na strplivost, da se popravam, na kolektivna strplivost e dovolno golem. Cheers Alex ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 15:32:03 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: za imeto, za logika, za avionite ... In-Reply-To: <9411151100.AA10167@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "M Petkovski" at Nov 15, 94 10:56:01 am Zdravo, > P.S. Ona Nova Republika (namesto Nova Makedonija) e nekoj nov predlog > na Butros & Butros ili nasa spekulacija okolu imeto? > Nova stara idea na Butros & Butros & sons. Tchuess Alex ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 15:38:43 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: Before the rain In-Reply-To: <9411141358.AA12968@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija" at Nov 14, 94 01:43:29 pm Zdravo, > Koga sme vekje kaj Before the rain, CD-to od Anastazija > e vekje izdadeno i imav prilika da go chujam soundtrack-ot > (seushte nemam nabaveno kopija za mene). Muzikata e > navistina odlichna, so toa shto mora da se priznae deka > e mnogu poefektna vo kombinacija so filmot. Duri bi rekol > deka ako nekoj prvin ja chue muzikata, bez da go ima > gledano filmot, kje ima mnogu poslab vpechatok, od onoj > shto bi go dobil ako go napravi obratnoto. Zatoa, gledajte > go prvin filmot! > Shto mislish, kje mozhe li da se najde takvo neshto vo zapadnite prodavnici? Ovde vo germanija za chudo golemo, nikoj ne chul za before the rain, a ne sum videl deka se shushka neshto deka filmot nekade se prikazhuva. Samo znam deka denes ili utre kje odam da go gledam "Pulp fiction" otkako vekje go gledav NBK. Inaku koga sme kaj muzika ja znea li nekoj odvas nekogash poznatata grupa "Mizar". Imam nekoi raboti od niv doma, koi shto dosta mi se dopagjaat. I ushte neshto, dali imash ( imate za poshirokata javnost ) chueno neshto za Phllip Boa ( and the Voodo club ). Odlichni se, barem mene mnogu mi se dopagjaat. Imaat prilichno svoeglav stil, a koga sme vekje kaj egocentrichnosta na R.Smith, shto kje kazhesh na faktot deka pretposledniot album na P.Boa se vika Boaphenia, a noviot se vika Boagod ili Boa God kako ti se dopagja povekje. Tschuess und Gruesse Alex ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 16:40:50 +0000 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: M Petkovski Subject: Re: Vuko Tashkovich Zdravo, Please do not take excerpts from my comment on the patriots investing money in RM and use them to show what I mean about the Tashkovich family (I know nothing about them). I clearly stated there that I was not reffering to them, I only used the opportunity to say something else. If I wasn't clear, I am sorry. Mihail -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mihail Petkovski, University of Sheffield, Department of Civil & Structural Engineering, Mappin Street, Sheffield S1 4DU, UK Tel. (0114) 2825 071; Fax. (0114) 2728 910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 13:05:04 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: imeto and stuff Bube pissuva: > VREMETO E NA NASA STRANA, samo treba da bideme strplivi i da znae- > me sto sakame. Bulls-eye, Bube! Ne sfakjam kako ova ne im e occigledno na site. Nema sila ssto mozze da skrssi eden cel narod so svoja drzzava i so miroljubivi nameri kon se' ssto go opkruzzuva. Cheers, Zoran ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 14:39:36 CST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Luben Todorouski Subject: Re: MIZAR In-Reply-To: <199411151514.JAA18007@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>; from "Aleksandar Aleksov" at Nov 15, 94 3:38 pm > > Koga sme vekje kaj Before the rain, CD-to od Anastazija > > e vekje izdadeno i imav prilika da go chujam soundtrack-ot > > (seushte nemam nabaveno kopija za mene). Muzikata e > > navistina odlichna, so toa shto mora da se priznae deka > > e mnogu poefektna vo kombinacija so filmot. Duri bi rekol > > deka ako nekoj prvin ja chue muzikata, bez da go ima > > gledano filmot, kje ima mnogu poslab vpechatok, od onoj > > shto bi go dobil ako go napravi obratnoto. Zatoa, gledajte > > go prvin filmot! > > > Shto mislish, kje mozhe li da se najde takvo neshto vo zapadnite prodavnici? > Ovde vo germanija za chudo golemo, nikoj ne chul za before the rain, a ne > sum videl deka se shushka neshto deka filmot nekade se prikazhuva. Samo znam > deka denes ili utre kje odam da go gledam "Pulp fiction" otkako vekje go > gledav NBK. > Inaku koga sme kaj muzika ja znea li nekoj odvas nekogash poznatata grupa > "Mizar". Imam nekoi raboti od niv doma, koi shto dosta mi se dopagjaat. > > Tschuess und Gruesse > Alex > > Koga sme kaj MIZAR, tie se edna od moite omileni makedonski grupi. Pred 5-6 meseci eden moj drugar mi isprati kaseta od niv. Im ja dadov na slusanje na nekoi moi drugarcinja tuka, od razni strani da svetot za da vidam kako ke reagiraat. Na eden dobar del poprilicno im se dopadna. Inaku vo New Orleans ima nekolku stanici koi redovno imaat programa za taka narecena world music. Sto zabelezav deka nekoi bugarski bendovi se poprilicno slusani. Steta sto i makedonskata muzika ne e promovirana do sega. Sigurno deka imame sto da ponudime, a i vo odnos na stilot sme pobliski da zapad od naprimer bugarite Koga bi imal CDs od nekoi makedonski grupi kako na pr. Mizar, Lola V. Stain, Leb i Sol, Anastasija ili sl., bi mozel da im gi ponudam na WOZ (toa e radio stanica na Tulane Un.). Toa e dobar poteg za afirmacija na Makedonija. Siguren sum deka dobro ke bidat prifateni, bidejki New Orleans e sredina kade dobrata i interesna muzika sekogas e prifatena (vprocem se sto e JAZZ i nastanalo ovde). Za New Orleans's club scena ke pisam poopsirno koga ke imam poveke vreme. Bidete pozdraveni i ako nekoj moze da najde CD so soodvetna muzika, ve molam neka mi se javi. Blagodaram Bube Luben Todorovski 2618 S. Carrollton Av. New Orleans LA 70118 U.S.A. tel. 1(504)8614897 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 15:10:34 CST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Luben Todorouski Subject: Re: Delbi (belomorie) In-Reply-To: <199411151437.IAA92631@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>; from "Aleksandar Aleksov" at Nov 15, 94 3:27 pm > > porano Makedonija geografski e ekonomska celina. Ekonomskite interesi > > na site nejzini delovi se determinirani so ovoj fakt. Ili poprosto receno > > Rep. Makedonija mu treba na Solun isto tolku kolku Solun na Makedonija, > > taka sto interesite na bilo koj sto zivee vo Solun ke bidat svrteni poveke > > kon Makedonija otkolku kon Grcija. Toa moze da kreira atmosfera na > > zblizuvanje na steta na atinskite interesi i da rezultira najmalku vo > > ekonomska reunifikacija. > > Bi bilo ubavo, no ova vo momentov premnogu e ubavo za da bi bilo vistina, > zneash "Sweet dreams". > Znaes deka postenjeto na nezavisna makedonska drzava izgledaa kako "sweet dreems" (bar za nekoi od nas), ne taka odamna. Isto taka pred 10 god. retko koj se osmeluvase da pomisli za pad na kumunizmot, ama i toa se sluci. Ne taka odavna luge mi se smeeja koga ke kazam deka Jugoslavija nema da opstane posle padot na Titovata diktatura. Se sto iznesov ne se bazira na "sweet dreams" tuku na istoriski fakti i pomalce logika ne bi bila na steta. Samo treba da gledame malce podaleku od deneska. Da bideme jaki i da znaeme sto sakame and sweet dreams can be reality. > > > ke ne dovede do pozicija na pokrenuvanje na prasanja koi dolgo vreme > > bea zamrznati na nasa steta. Cisto se cudam sto istite se uste ne se > > Mislish ? Ako, na Makedonija i se potrebni optimisti, bidejki takvite davaat > nadezh. Seriozno. > Ne e vo prasanje mojot optimizam tuku potrebata za resitelna akcija za koja se plasam Gligorov ne e nitu spremen nitu sposoben (bi bil sreken ako ne sum vo pravo). Za nesreka nitu e raspolozen da mobilizira posirok del od makedon- skite politicki subjekti, bidejki kako sto mi izgleda gleda samo na toa da bandata mu ostane na vlast. A za bandata MK e poslednata griza. Ova ideja za promoviranje na prasanja na pr. kako Makedoncite vo R. Grcija i sl. ne e vprocem moja. Istata bese iznesena od eden od nasite naj iskusni diplomati. Ne mislam na Stojan Andov (ha,ha). > > pokrenati. Treba da bidime pametni da go iskoristime momentot, koga seuste > > makedonskoto prasanje e otvoreno. Samo treba da istraeme vo site nasi > > stanovista (ne samo imeto tuku i simbolite i ustavot). A nadezta sto > > Francuzite i nekoi drugi vo EZ ja imaat za skoro zatvoranje na makedonskoto > > prasanje e cista iluzija. Za sreka istite odavna prestanaa da bidat nekoj > > faktor vo svetskata politika. Vistinskite svetski sili se poveke nakloneti > > kon nas. Situacijata moze da bide uste popovolna koga Rusija ke zastane na > > svoi noze. VREMETO E NA NASA STRANA, samo treba da bideme strplivi i da znae > me sto sakame. > > > Sekoja strplivost ima kraj, se nadevam deka the amount na strplivost, da se > popravam, na kolektivna strplivost e dovolno golem. > > Cheers > Alex > Ako nemame strplivost i volja ke nemame nitu drzava. Pa neka ni e sozdravje. Pozdrav Bube. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 16:35:52 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Vanja Josifovski Subject: Before the Rain in US?? Zdravo na site, Dali ima nekoj pojma dali moze da se najde filmot Before the Rain vo US. Dali se distribuira na kaseta ili nesto slicno? Uste edno prasanje: dali ima nekoj makedonec vo Florida? Vanja ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 17:32:24 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Vanja Josifovski Subject: Re: Pratenici Dali znae nekoj koje podracje vo opstina Centar Skopje e naseleno so Albanci? Vo kontekst na: >| Centar (Skopje)| 115 | Mevljan Tairi | PDP | Vanja ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 20:24:34 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: TO: Slavko Mangovski In-Reply-To: <199411150440.XAA25947@tequesta.gate.net> On Mon, 14 Nov 1994, SARAGIL STEVE wrote: > Zdravo Slavko, > > How is everything down in sunny, balmy Ft.Lauderdale? Not that nice right now. We have been having tropical storm Gordon over us for the last three days. Heavy rain with strong wind wrecking havoc on phone lines and other communications. > I've been reading some of your postings meaning to reply and > see how you are doing...but time is a constraint for me, never > mind my poor memory. :) > > Not much happening in Toronto. > Today was real warm though. Do you understand that it is the > middle of November and today the temp. shot up to 18 C. > This is unheard of. Usually we would have some snow activity > by now. Let me count my blessings. Whats the temp. in Fa? > Highs 82, lows 72 and thats Fahrenheit. After this storm passes we should have gorgeous weather untill the next rainy season in May. > We had municipal elections today and had some bad news for > our Macedonian community. In Scarborough (where I live) a new > mayor was voted in - Frank Foubert. > This is the man that was against the flag raising at city hall > last year and the man that went to greece paid by the gov't of > greece - only to buy his support. WELL...now the greeks have > a man in office and we will have a tough time with city hall for > the next four years. At one city council meeting that discussed > the flag raising issue, he called all of us attending "Skopjani" > and "Vulgari" in GREEK!!!!! He also called us another dirty > word in greek that ROUGHLY translated was along the same lines > as "dirty nigger". This guy is trash and now we have to call him > "Your worship" *PUKE* > And a guy like that got elected Mayor? Incredible. > Otherwise...not much else happening here. :) > Whats new in Ft.Lauderdale? Any picnics coming up? > We just had a Mitrovden church banquet and will have picnics at least once a month. The Canadian 'snowbirds' (as we call northerners who spend the winter in Florida) have arrived so the Macedonian community got more numerous, at least until spring. > Keep in touch. > Steve Saragil > > _________ > _________/ \ ___ > __/ \________/ \__ > _/ -=* StEvE SaRaGiL *=- \____ > / e-mail: 90saragi@wave.scar.utoronto.ca \__ > | \_ > | Association of Macedonian Students at the \_ > / University of Toronto \ > | c/o SCSC University of Toronto \ > | 1265 Military Trail, Scarborough, Ontario | > | M1C 1A4 CANADA | > \__ e-mail: Macedonian_Association@UTCampusLife.org ___ / > \ / \_/ > / There's only ONE Macedonia & it's NOT Greek!_/ __ > / ___ _____ ___ / / \ > | __ / @ Solun \ \_ \_ \/\ \__| > \ AMSUT Hotline / \_/ | \ \ \ \ / > \ +1 416 / | \ \ | | \ > \ 236-6979 _/ | \_ \ | | | > \________/ \____\ \__/ \__| > MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS! > DA ZIVEE MAKEDONIJA! > Best regards Slavko ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 20:51:34 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: Delbi (belomorie) In-Reply-To: <199411160004.TAA15807@tequesta.gate.net> On Tue, 15 Nov 1994, Luben Todorouski wrote: > > > porano Makedonija geografski e ekonomska celina. Ekonomskite interesi > > > na site nejzini delovi se determinirani so ovoj fakt. Ili poprosto receno > > > Rep. Makedonija mu treba na Solun isto tolku kolku Solun na Makedonija, > > > taka sto interesite na bilo koj sto zivee vo Solun ke bidat svrteni poveke > > > kon Makedonija otkolku kon Grcija. Toa moze da kreira atmosfera na > > > zblizuvanje na steta na atinskite interesi i da rezultira najmalku vo > > > ekonomska reunifikacija. > > > > Bi bilo ubavo, no ova vo momentov premnogu e ubavo za da bi bilo vistina, > > zneash "Sweet dreams". Vsushnost znaci deka gornovo e vistina vekje se pojavuvaat. Doznavam od sigurni izvori deka mnogu nashi 'grkomani', koi zaradi razni prichini stanale 'Grci', i pokraj toa shto chisto zboruvaat Makedonski, pokazhuvaat nezadovolstvo sprema pravite Grci. Velat deka Grcite, i pokraj toa shto tie, grkomanite, pridonesle mnogu za Grcija, nikogash ne im veruvale i zatoa nikoj od nashite ne bile postaveni na vrvni mesta vo Grchkata administracija. Ako nie ostanime one shto sme, neminovno toa nezadovolstvo kje gi tera da gravitiraat kon nas. Vsuhsnost najgolemiot dokaz deka sevo ova e vistina se samite Grci. Dali nekoj seriozno misli deka nie ja zagrozuvame Grcija i deka, kako shto sakaat da zboruvaat, kje im ja zememe Makedonija? Voophsto ne. Tie se plashat odvnatre, ne odnadvor. [del] > > Mislish ? Ako, na Makedonija i se potrebni optimisti, bidejki takvite davaat > > nadezh. Seriozno. > > > Ne e vo prasanje mojot optimizam tuku potrebata za resitelna akcija za koja > se plasam Gligorov ne e nitu spremen nitu sposoben (bi bil sreken ako ne sum > vo pravo). Za nesreka nitu e raspolozen da mobilizira posirok del od makedon- > skite politicki subjekti, bidejki kako sto mi izgleda gleda samo na toa da > bandata mu ostane na vlast. A za bandata MK e poslednata griza. Ova ideja > za promoviranje na prasanja na pr. kako Makedoncite vo R. Grcija i sl. ne > e vprocem moja. Istata bese iznesena od eden od nasite naj iskusni diplomati. > Ne mislam na Stojan Andov (ha,ha). > > > pokrenati. Treba da bidime pametni da go iskoristime momentot, koga seuste > > > makedonskoto prasanje e otvoreno. Samo treba da istraeme vo site nasi > > > stanovista (ne samo imeto tuku i simbolite i ustavot). A nadezta sto > > > Francuzite i nekoi drugi vo EZ ja imaat za skoro zatvoranje na makedonskot > o > > > prasanje e cista iluzija. Za sreka istite odavna prestanaa da bidat nekoj > > > faktor vo svetskata politika. Vistinskite svetski sili se poveke nakloneti > > > kon nas. Situacijata moze da bide uste popovolna koga Rusija ke zastane na > > > svoi noze. VREMETO E NA NASA STRANA, samo treba da bideme strplivi i da zn > ae > > me sto sakame. > > > > > Sekoja strplivost ima kraj, se nadevam deka the amount na strplivost, da se > > popravam, na kolektivna strplivost e dovolno golem. > > > > Cheers > > Alex > > > Ako nemame strplivost i volja ke nemame nitu drzava. Pa neka ni e sozdravje. > > Pozdrav Bube. > Potpolno se slozhuvam so gornovo. Slavko ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 21:09:43 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: Before the Rain in US?? In-Reply-To: <199411160027.TAA36459@tequesta.gate.net> On Tue, 15 Nov 1994, Vanja Josifovski wrote: > Zdravo na site, > [del] > > Uste edno prasanje: dali ima nekoj makedonec vo Florida? Ne samo eden. Najmalku 140 familii koi vo zima narasnuvaat za ushte 50. > > Vanja > Slavko ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:02:52 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Parlamentarci Bube reche: > > +---------------------+-----+-----------------------------+--------------+ > > | OPSHTINA | I.E.| PRATENIK | PARTIJA | > > +---------------------+-----+-----------------------------+--------------+ > > | Titov Veles | 082 | Ace Kocevski | SZM | > > | Titov Veles | 083 | Milcho Trajkov | SZM | > > | Titov Veles | 084 | Peco Stojanovski | SZM | > > | Titov Veles | 085 | Jovan Nikolov | SZM | > > | Centar (Skopje)| 113 | Tito Petkovski | SZM | > > Uste li e Veles titov !?!? Da. > A gledam kaj mene Tito pak dobil. POSLE TITO TITO. Neka ni e sozdravje. Greshka. I po TITO - KIRO. ;) Ustvari, i Tito (Petkovski) mozhe da posluzhi. Na postizbornata konvencija na SZM, posetitelite konechno mozhea da si ja ispushat dushata so gromoglasnoto (i skoro nekolku-minutno) skandiranje "Tito, Tito, Tito...". Se razbira, dobar del od niv bea postari lugje - penzioneri. Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 00:03:59 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Before the rain Alex reche: > > Koga sme vekje kaj Before the rain, CD-to od Anastazija > > e vekje izdadeno i imav prilika da go chujam soundtrack-ot > > (seushte nemam nabaveno kopija za mene). Muzikata e > > navistina odlichna, so toa shto mora da se priznae deka > > e mnogu poefektna vo kombinacija so filmot. Duri bi rekol > > deka ako nekoj prvin ja chue muzikata, bez da go ima > > gledano filmot, kje ima mnogu poslab vpechatok, od onoj > > shto bi go dobil ako go napravi obratnoto. Zatoa, gledajte > > go prvin filmot! > > > Shto mislish, kje mozhe li da se najde takvo neshto vo zapadnite prodavnici? Bi trebalo, bidejkji CD-to vsushnot izleze vo prodazhba tokmu vo London! > Inaku koga sme kaj muzika ja znea li nekoj odvas nekogash poznatata grupa > "Mizar". Imam nekoi raboti od niv doma, koi shto dosta mi se dopagjaat. Sekako deka ja znaeme (barem jas :). Dobra muzika. Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimce - vkire@lotus.mk =I cant slow down, like a river- = Bojmija 8/24 =kvidimce@a1.news.mk- I'm flowing, on and on... = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone = Someway, somehow, I'll find = - Republic of Macedonia- +389-91-411-125 - where I'm going someday.. - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 22:21:58 -0600 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: George Mitrevski Subject: Re: Before the Rain in US?? In-Reply-To: <9411152354.AA24493@mail.auburn.edu> > > Uste edno prasanje: dali ima nekoj makedonec vo Florida? > > Vanja > Ima dosta makedonci vo Florida. Mislam deka ima golema grupa nekade severno od Miami. Jas imam striko koj zivee vo Plantation. Toj vika deka ke gradile sega nekoja crkva tamu. Goce Mitrevski. PS: A ti Vanja kade zivees vo Florida? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 07:47:32 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Centar Vanja reche: > Dali znae nekoj koje podracje vo opstina Centar Skopje e naseleno so Albanci? > Vo kontekst na: > >| Centar (Skopje)| 115 | Mevljan Tairi | PDP | Ako ne se lazham, se raboti za delot okolu Bit Pazar. Kje se rasprasham pa kje odgovoram ushte ednash. Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 05:59:05 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: REUTER: Census X-To: Samoil@aol.com, BARTHJ@scpmg.com Albanians reject Macedonia census results By Mircela Casule SKOPJE, Nov 14 (Reuter) - Ethnic Albanians rejected results of a Macedonia census on Monday, saying they made up a greater percentage of the population in the former Yugoslav republic than the figures showed. Independent monitors, however, endorsed the census, carried out in mid-June under European Union sponsorship, as a genuine count in the multi-ethnic Balkan republic. According to initial official results, Macedonia's population is 1,936,877, Macedonian statistics bureau chief Svetlana Andonovska told a news conference on Monday. She said ethnic Macedonians accounted for a 66.5 percent majority of 1,288,330, with Albanians forming the second largest ethnic group with 22.9 percent. Albanians had claimed they accounted for at least one-third of the population and were demanding an appropriate share of power. Albanian People's Democratic Party secretary-general Bedredin Ibrahimi told Reuters they considered the census was irregular. ``We have declared this census irregular even before the results were announced. The census is a failure and we do not recognise the published data. ``We make up one-third of the population of this state. We can prove this under one condition, and that is that Albanians conduct their own population census under international control.'' But Wehrner Haugh, head of a 40-member team of international observers from 19 countries monitoring the census, dismissed the objections. ``From its examination of the data on ethnic affiliation, and on the basis of the earlier observation in the field, the group considers that the figures derived from the responses on the census forms are a true reflection of the ethnic affiliation that respondents gave of their own free will. ``The census was generally well prepared and conducted according to international rules. Population figures are in line with the recent demographic trends. ``Speculation of the size of ethnic population will come to an end,'' he added. The remaining ethnic balance of the country includes Turks, Romanies, Vlachs and Serbs. Final census results were expected to be published in late December. REUTER Transmitted: 94-11-14 13:47:56 EST ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 05:59:45 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: REUTER Portugal opens diplomatic ties with Macedonia LISBON, Nov 15 (Reuter) - Portugal said on Tuesday it had established diplomatic relations with the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia. The move was formalised in an exchange of notes between the Portuguese and Macedonian missions at the United Nations and the two countries would appoint ambassadors in due course, the foreign ministry said in a statement. Portugal, along with other European Union (EU) states, had delayed establishing formal diplomatic relations with Macedonia at the request of Greece. Athens has accused Macedonia, which declared independence from Yugoslavia in 1992, of harbouring potential territorial claims over parts of its own territory. Several other EU states have already established diplomatic relations with Macedonia. REUTER Transmitted: 94-11-15 09:55:03 EST ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 06:05:21 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: REUTER:SOCCER X-To: BARTHJ@scpmg.com Soccer-Albert joins Belgian casualty list BRUSSELS, Nov 15 (Reuter) - Defender Philippe Albert on Tuesday joined the casualty list of Belgian players forced out Wednesday's European championship group two qualifier against Macedonia. Belgium coach Paul Van Himst said Albert of English premier league Newcastle United was still hampered by a thigh strain sustained in a warm-up game last Saturday. Van Himst said he did not want to risk aggravating the injury ahead of the next qualifier against group favourites Spain next month. Influential midfielder Enzo Scifo, who missed Belgium's first two qualifiers against Armenia and Denmark, is sidelined for a further six weeks after surgery on an injured ankle. Van Himst also had to replace defenders Georges Grun and Marc Emmers and Croatian-born striker Josip Weber, who are all injured. Another striker, Cagliari's Luis Oliveira, refused to play against Macedonia. Van Himst has sworn never to call him up again. Van Himst recalled defender Bertrand Crasson and midfielder Johan Walem, both absent from the national team for more than two years, and in-form striker Luc Nilis. Belgium team - Michel Preud'homme; Regis Genaux, Bertrand Crasson, Rudy Smidts, Danny Boffin; Gert Verheyen, Franky Van Der Elst, Lorenzo Staelens, Johan Walem; Marc Degryse, Luc Nilis BRUSSELS, Nov 14 (Reuter) - The Belgian Football Federation said on Monday striker Luis Oliveira would never be selected for the national team again after refusing to play against Macedonia in a European championship qualifier on Wednesday. The 25-year-old Brazilian-born striker, who joined Cagliari in 1992 after three seasons at Anderlecht, told coach Paul Van Himst he was not injured but felt a bit under the weather and did not want to be considered for selection. He has made 10 appearances for his country. It is the second time this year that Van Himst and Oliveira have fallen out. Oliveira criticised Van Himst and fellow international Enzo Scifo in an interview shortly before the World Cup. Oliveira demanded guarantees he would play in his favourite position in the United States. Van Himst subsequently left him out of the World Cup squad. Oliveira was called up again for Belgium's European championship qualifier against Armenia in September after he said he regretted the row with Van Himst and was prepared to rejoin the national team unconditionally. But the latest snub has infuriated the coach and outraged national federation president Michel D'Hooghe who was quoted by Belgian newspapers on Monday as saying Oliveira's refusal was an insult to Van Himst, the federation and fellow internationals. Deputy national coach Michel Sablon told Reuters: ``D'Hooghe was outraged. He can't accept that Oliveira ignored the invitation. ``Now Van Himst has said Oliveira will not be called up any more. It's a logical consequence if he doesn't want to accept an invitation.'' REUTER Transmitted: 94-11-14 10:13:43 EST Transmitted: 94-11-15 08:11:34 EST ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 06:07:55 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: ANM Risks WELL, I DID POST ONE MESSAGE ON ANM (TRYING TO SUPPORT THE MACEDONIANS), AND HERE I GET A GREEK'S MESSAGE IN MY MAIL. THE LAST THING I NEED IS TO HAVE TO READ NASTY MESSAGES FROM GREEKS ON DAILY BASES. ISN'T THERE A WAY TO KEEP THEM OUT, OR TO CONCEAL MY E-MAIL ADDRESS WHEN POSTIN TO ANM (IF I EVER WANT TO DO IT AGAIN)? ZOYA P.S. THIS IS WHO I GOT THE MESSAGE FROM. Subj: Re: Slav-Macedonians Date: Wed, Nov 16, 1994 2:10 AM EST From: baloglou@panix.com X-From: baloglou@panix.com (George Baloglou) George Baloglou (broadcasting from the southeastern shores of Lake Ontario) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:29:40 GMT-5 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: VLADIMIR OGNJANOVSKI Organization: Indiana State University Subject: Re: MIZAR Bube pisuva: > Sto zabelezav deka nekoi bugarski bendovi se poprilicno slusani. Steta > sto i makedonskata muzika ne e promovirana do sega. Sigurno deka imame sto > da ponudime, a i vo odnos na stilot sme pobliski da zapad od naprimer bugar > ite > Koga bi imal CDs od nekoi makedonski grupi kako na pr. Mizar, Lola V. Stain > , > Leb i Sol, Anastasija ili sl., bi mozel da im gi ponudam na WOZ (toa e radi > o > stanica na Tulane Un.). Toa e dobar poteg za afirmacija na Makedonija. > Siguren sum deka dobro ke bidat prifateni, bidejki New Orleans e sredina > kade dobrata i interesna muzika sekogas e prifatena (vprocem se sto e JAZZ U pravo si deka toa e dobra moznost za promocija na Makedonija, i deka e steta sto dosega toa ne e storeno. Samo, koga vikas deka imame sto da ponudime, dali mislis i na narodna muzika ili samo na "zabavna". Ako mislis samo na zabavna sto ke se sluci!? Ke gi ispustaat duri trite ili cetiri grupi sto vredat i se originalni u Mak (Leb i Sol, Mizar, Anastazija, Lola V. Stajn) i posle sto? Ke pustas Studeni Noze, Risto Bombata i kompanija? Tolku ni e bogata rokenrol scenata, ima cetiri grupi, od koi momentalno mozda samo edna funkcionira, a drugoto e se prevara. Ili mislis na ameri da im prodavas Makfest i sl. bullshit-i. A za narodnjaci se slagam Ima sto da se ponudi. Ama samo izvorni numeri. Valandovci i ostali novokomponirani "umetnici", definitivno NE. Vlatko O. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:38:04 GMT-5 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: VLADIMIR OGNJANOVSKI Organization: Indiana State University Subject: Re: Parlamentarci Kire Vidimce pisuva: > Greshka. I po TITO - KIRO. ;) > Ustvari, i Tito (Petkovski) mozhe da posluzhi. Na postizbornata > konvencija na SZM, posetitelite konechno mozhea da si ja > ispushat dushata so gromoglasnoto (i skoro nekolku-minutno) > skandiranje "Tito, Tito, Tito...". Se razbira, dobar del > od niv bea postari lugje - penzioneri. Sto ima loso vo toa. Zarem ne smeat lugjeto da si kazat sto im lezi na dusata? Ako ne se lazam toa e demokratija, sekoj da moze da si se opredeli kako saka, i da ne bide kritikuvan za toa. Sekoj si ima pravo na licno mislenje, i javno iskazuvanje na toa mislenje (freedom of thought and freedom of speech). A i sto im fali na penzionerite? Ili naseto opstestvo treba da se grizi i da go slusa samo glasot na mladite? Da ne zaboravime, eden den site nas toa ne ceka. Zarem sakame nekoj taka za nas da vika: "pusti gi penzioneri..." Vlatko O. PS. Ne sum ljubitel na Titovcite, samo glasno razmisluvam. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 11:44:38 GMT-5 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: VLADIMIR OGNJANOVSKI Organization: Indiana State University Subject: Re: REUTER: Census From Reuter: > Albanians reject Macedonia census results > > By Mircela Casule > SKOPJE, Nov 14 (Reuter) - Ethnic Albanians rejected results of a > Macedonia census on Monday,....... > ......``We make up one-third of the population of this state. We can > prove this under one condition, and that is that Albanians conduct > their own population census under international control.'' Great idea!... Ama i Makedoncite da si sprovedat svoj sopstven popis. Taka sekoj ke si ima svoj popis, pa ke imame 1,000 000 albanci, 10,000 000 makedonci, garant edno 6,000 000 srbi, po nekoj bugarin, grk, rom, vlav, grk, egipkjanec... Samo kade ke ne sobere site vo edna peda zemja? Vlatko O. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 21:47:39 GMT+3 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zhidas Daskalovski Subject: Re: soccer Please someone tell me how did the match finished I am trapped in this lab working on a paper RM-Belgium? please sos s.o.s. I need a good news badly ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 15:42:57 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Plamen Bliznakov Subject: Re: ANM Risks Zoya Naskova writes... >WELL, I DID POST ONE MESSAGE ON ANM (TRYING TO SUPPORT THE MACEDONIANS), AND >HERE I GET A GREEK'S MESSAGE IN MY MAIL. THE LAST THING I NEED IS TO HAVE TO >READ NASTY MESSAGES FROM GREEKS ON DAILY BASES. ISN'T THERE A WAY TO KEEP >THEM OUT, OR TO CONCEAL MY E-MAIL ADDRESS WHEN POSTIN TO ANM (IF I EVER WANT >TO DO IT AGAIN)? > >ZOYA > >P.S. THIS IS WHO I GOT THE MESSAGE FROM. Typically, one gets responses if he/she posts to a Usenet group. There is a way to conceal your identity by using an anonymous account (and there is a server in Finland which lets you do just that). Yet posting anonymously is not a very good practice (at least that tells me that a person has something to hide for some reason). I know of people using that server because of problems with their E-mail accounts, yet they usually (if they want to give some more weight to their postings) disclose their identity (give name and/or original E-mail address). Redards, Plamen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 16:25:43 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Perica Babanovski Subject: Belgija - Makedonija Zdravo na site. Ima li nekoj informacija za rezultatite od utakmicite na Makedonija so Belgija (A i mlada reprezentacija)? I dali bea istaknati znaminjata i intonirani himnite pred pocetok na utakmicite? Blagodaram odnapred za informacijata Perica ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:19:50 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: I Shot Marvin in the Head From rorschak@daimi.aau.dk Wed Nov 16 19:17:08 EST 1994 Article: 130010 of rec.sport.soccer Path: njitgw.njit.edu!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!msuinfo!uwm.edu!news.moneng.mei.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!news.uni-c.dk!news.daimi.aau.dk!rorschak From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen) Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer Subject: [R/T] England '96 Qualification results and tables Date: 16 Nov 1994 22:51:11 GMT Organization: Federation Internationale de Football Association Lines: 135 Message-ID: <3ae2cv$fb5@belfort.daimi.aau.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ilex.daimi.aau.dk The last weeks results, standings and the games yet to played this year. There's a few surprising results and quite a lot expected results with surprising scorelines. Group 1 94.11.12: Romania - Slovakia 3 - 2 94.11.16: Azerbaijan - Israel 0 - 2 94.11.16: Poland - France 0 - 0 Romania 3 2 1 0 6 - 2 7 ( 0) Israel 3 2 1 0 6 - 3 7 ( 0) Poland 3 1 1 1 2 - 2 4 (-2) France 3 0 3 0 0 - 0 3 (-1) Slovakia 3 0 2 1 4 - 5 2 (-2) Azerbaijan 3 0 0 3 0 - 6 0 (-4) 94.12.14: Azerbaijan - France 94.12.14: Israel - Romania Group 2 94.11.16: Belgium - Macedonia 1 - 1 94.11.16: Cyprus - Armenia 2 - 0 94.11.16: Spain - The Champions 3 - 0 Spain 3 3 0 0 7 - 1 9 ( 2) Cyprus 3 1 1 1 3 - 2 4 (-2) Belgium 3 1 1 1 4 - 4 4 (-2) The Champions 3 1 1 1 4 - 5 4 (-1) Macedonia 3 0 2 1 2 - 4 2 (-3) Armenia 3 0 1 2 0 - 4 1 (-3) 94.12.17: Belgium - Spain 94.12.17: Macedonia - Cyprus Group 3 94.11.16: Switzerland - Iceland 1 - 0 94.11.16: Sweden - Hungary 2 - 0 Switzerland 2 2 0 0 5 - 2 6 ( 0) Sweden 3 2 0 1 5 - 4 6 ( 0) Turkey 2 1 1 0 7 - 2 4 ( 0) Hungary 2 0 1 1 2 - 4 1 (-2) Iceland 3 0 0 3 0 - 7 0 (-4) 94.12.14: Turkey - Switzerland Group 4 94.11.16: Italy - Croatia 1 - 2 94.11.16: Slovenia - Lithuania 1 - 2 Croatia 3 3 0 0 6 - 1 9 ( 2) Lithuania 3 2 0 1 4 - 3 6 ( 1) Italy 3 1 1 1 4 - 3 4 (-1) Ukraine 3 1 1 1 3 - 2 4 (-3) Slovenia 3 0 2 1 2 - 3 2 (-3) Estonia 3 0 0 3 0 - 7 0 (-5) Group 5 94.11.16: Byelorussia - Norway 0 - 4 94.11.16: Netherlands - Czech Republic 0 - 0 Norway 3 2 1 0 6 - 1 7 ( 0) Czech Republic 3 1 2 0 6 - 1 5 ( 0) Netherlands 3 1 2 0 5 - 1 5 ( 0) Byelorussia 3 1 0 2 2 - 5 3 (-3) Malta 2 0 1 1 1 - 6 1 (-2) Luxembourg 2 0 0 2 0 - 6 0 (-3) 94.12.14: Netherlands - Luxembourg 94.12.14: Malta - Norway Group 6 94.11.13: Portugal - Austria 1 - 0 94.11.15: Liechtenstein - Latvia 0 - 1 94.11.16: North Ireland - Ireland 0 - 4 Ireland 3 3 0 0 11 - 0 9 ( 2) Portugal 3 3 0 0 6 - 2 9 ( 2) North Ireland 4 2 0 2 7 - 8 6 (-3) Austria 3 1 0 2 5 - 3 3 (-2) Latvia 3 1 0 2 1 - 4 3 (-3) Liechtenstein 4 0 0 4 1 - 13 0 (-6) 94.12.18: Portugal - Liechtenstein Group 7 94.11.16: Georgia - Wales 5 - 0 94.11.16: Albania - Germany 1 - 2 94.11.16: Bulgaria - Moldova 4 - 1 Bulgaria 2 2 0 0 6 - 1 6 ( 0) Moldova 3 2 0 1 5 - 6 6 ( 0) Georgia 3 1 0 2 5 - 3 3 (-3) Germany 1 1 0 0 2 - 1 3 ( 1) Wales 3 1 0 2 4 - 8 3 (-2) Albania 2 0 0 2 1 - 4 0 (-3) 94.12.14: Albania - Georgia 94.12.14: Moldova - Germany 94.12.14: Wales - Bulgaria 94.12.18: Germany - Albania Group 8 94.11.16: Finland - Faroe Islands 5 - 0 94.11.16: Scotland - Russia 1 - 1 94.11.16: Greece - San Marino 2 - 0 Greece 3 3 0 0 11 - 1 9 ( 1) Scotland 3 2 1 0 8 - 2 7 ( 0) Russia 2 1 1 0 5 - 1 4 ( 0) Finland 3 1 0 2 5 - 6 3 (-3) San Marino 2 0 0 2 0 - 6 0 (-2) Faroe Islands 3 0 0 3 2 - 15 0 (-4) 94.12.14: Finland - San Marino 94.12.18: Greece - Scotland -- Jesper Lauridsen | Liverpool FC - 18xChampions, 5xCup Winner, rorschak@daimi.aau.dk | 4xEC1 and 2xEC3 Winner ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 17:33:57 -0700 Reply-To: Vladimir Vuksan Sender: Macedonian Discussion List Comments: RFC822 error: SENDER field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Vladimir Vuksan Subject: Re: ANM Risks In-Reply-To: > WELL, I DID POST ONE MESSAGE ON ANM (TRYING TO SUPPORT THE MACEDONIANS), AND > HERE I GET A GREEK'S MESSAGE IN MY MAIL. THE LAST THING I NEED IS TO HAVE TO > READ NASTY MESSAGES FROM GREEKS ON DAILY BASES. ISN'T THERE A WAY TO KEEP > THEM OUT, OR TO CONCEAL MY E-MAIL ADDRESS WHEN POSTIN TO ANM (IF I EVER WANT > TO DO IT AGAIN)? Well you can use anonymous server in Finland. Send e-mail to help@anon.penet.fi. On the other hand send mail to the administrator of the person's account and tell the admin that you don't want those kind of messages to be received cause you find them offensive, blabla. Address is root@panix.com and forward the whole message. OK ? Vladimir ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 12:49:47 GMT+900 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Peter Matevski Organization: Business, Uni Of Technology,Sydney Subject: soccer Macedonia-Belgium 1-1 Boskovski scored. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 13:36:37 +1100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Todd Mickov Subject: Skopje's architecture Kire wrote: > place (Sheraton Hotel was supposed to be build near the > Vardar River and the Old Bridge, between the Central Post > Office and the City Square "Macedonia"). This guy had > verdict, but I know that he promised that he wouldn't give up. > > Skopje does not have any decent hotel and Sheraton would've > been a first step towards future investments, and all > that went to hell only because of the jealousy of someone. > I'm not too happy about Sheraton being built on this site either. It's somewhat too central, too grand and important for Sheraton to be in the city's very centre. Why don't they build it somewhere between MNT and towards MRTV and get rid of those shambles in between or somewhere around that area, east of Vardar. I'm actually an old architecture buff, and I get so depressed seing pictures of old Skopje with all those grand old buildings that were virtually flatened by the '63 earthquake. Why don't they rebuild Oficerski Dom in its former glory instead of Sheraton on this site, which currently I believe is a park. And on the opposite side of Vardar where the old Dramski Teatar was (between Vardar and Skopje's main bus station) again rebuild Dramski Teatar for some other purpose maybe. I know this sounds extravagant and much too expensive and is in contrast with Skopje's general trend towards modern buildings. But don't you think this would give a more European feel to Skopje and particularly its centre. (Pray to God they don't start building skyscrapers and high rise towers, maybe somewhere further from the city centre, to the east.) As a Skopjanec, Kire, what do you think Skopje really needs, apart from a good scrubbing and cleaning? P.S. Kire da ne imas rodnina vo Bitola, oti gledam eden pratenik Kire Vidimche od edna Bitolska izborna edinica od SZM ili e mozebi slucajnost. Kind Regards, Todd Mickov _______ ____ I I I _____ ==================================== I / \ I I I I Express Yourself, I I I I I I I_____ Don't Repress Yourself !!! I I I I I I I I \____/ I__I__I I_____ (Bedtime Stories) ==================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 09:36:16 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Goce Naumoski Subject: za imeto (Reply) :Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 12:14:07 -0500 :From: Zarko Stankovski :Subject: za imeto Zharko pishuva: :>Koga li ke prestane ova? Koga li makedonskite politichki partii ke imaat :>zaednichka platforma shto se odnesuva do najvazhnite nacionalni interesi, :>npr. nadvoreshnata politika ? E ako dojdat do ova, duri togash ke :>mozheme da "pokazheme zabi". : Ako partiite uspeat da dojdat do zaednicka platforma za nadvoresnata :politika, mozda ce dojdat i do zaednicka platforma za ekonomskata politika, :i za kulturnata i za sportskata i za zdravstvenata i za ekoloskata i za site, :pa togas nema ni da ima potreba da ima povece partii i se ce bide poednostavno. Ne se slozhuvam. Eve den primer, vo Holandija site (povazhnite, pogolemite) partii imaat zaednichka platforma za nadvoreshnata politika, no shto se odnesuva do ekonomijata, kulturata, sportot, zdravstvoto, penziite, strancite, itn. itn. KOPJA SE KRSHAT! Taka da tvojata pretpostavka deka nema (ne ke ima) potreba od poveke partii ne mozhe da drzhi. : Neznam dali tocno go razbrav primerot na Goce za 2000DM plata i :tugiot gazda. Jas ne veruvam deka makedonskiot gazda ce mi dade pogolema :plata od stranskiot, od nekakvi patriotski pricini. Jas mislam deka i :edniot i drugiot se ce storat za da mi dadat najmala plata sto mozat. :Inaku, makedonskiot gazda, ako e mal gazda, najverojatno profitot ce go :investira vo Makedonija, inaku i on verovatno ce saka da se diverzificira i :verojatno ce gleda da investira i nadvor, sto e sigurno sigurno e..... O, izgleda ne bev jasen; mislev deka od kontekstot ke bide jasno, no ... Sakav da kazham kolku na nekoi Makedonci im e do Makedonija, bidejki tie si zamisluvaat deka ako vo Makedonija dojde nekoj drug (dali sosed ili podalechen ne e vazhno) vednash ke ima dade 2000 DM plata. Megutoa jas samo se prashuvav dali na takvite im e jasno shto znachi doagjanjeto i dali slushnale npr. za porobuvanje. Toa beshe mojata rechenica deka "i lebot od usta ke im go zemat". Znachi ne se raboteshe za tugji gazdi, tugji, stranski investicii, nema problem za toa, tuku se raboti za postoenjeto na "drzhavata Makedonija". Pozdrav, Goce. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 09:47:13 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Goce Naumoski Subject: Delbi (Reply) :Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 23:29:10 CST :From: Luben Todorouski :Subject: Re: Delbi (belomorie) :> :> Znaesh jas vo Makedonija sekogash mislev deka vo grcija samiot zbor :> Makedonija e diskreditiran. Za oficijalnata politika neznam, no naviknat na :> faktot deka grcite nekjat da chujat za neshto shto se vika Makedonija, bev :> :> > ama nisto ne im znaci. Postoenjeto na makedonska drzava e priznavanje :> na faktot za okupacija na Makedonija od grcka strana i :> > priznavanje na faktot za etnicko cistenje na istata (vo mnogu po surova :> > forma otkolku vo Bosna). , etnicko cistenje koe seuste trae. Ako nie ne :> > :> > Bube :> > :> Tuka ti davam pravo ! :> Pozdrav od :> Alex :> :Mislev na Makedonija kako ime na administrativna celina. No ova e dobar :povod da iznesam edno moe mislenje za idninata vo belomorskiot del na :Makedonija. Imeno, situacijata nastanata so reaktiviranjeto na makedonskoto :prasanje od strana na Atina moze da se pokazi i te kako kontra-produktivno :za istata. Kako sto mozebi znaete, posle okupacijata na Makedonija :Grckata vlada izvrsi naseluvanje na doselenici od razni kravi na svetot :koi sto bas ne bea nacionalno identicni so naselenieto od toa sto navistina :bi mozelo da bide Grcija. Den deneska taa razlika e prisutna. Na primer :se uste nivnoto ucestvo vo politickiot zivot na zemjata e marginalen. :Grckata propaganda moze da se pokaze kontra-produktivna so toa sto :posebnosta lesno moze da izleze na videlo. Od druga strana kako sto iznesov :porano Makedonija geografski e ekonomska celina. Ekonomskite interesi :na site nejzini delovi se determinirani so ovoj fakt. Ili poprosto receno :Rep. Makedonija mu treba na Solun isto tolku kolku Solun na Makedonija, :taka sto interesite na bilo koj sto zivee vo Solun ke bidat svrteni poveke :kon Makedonija otkolku kon Grcija. Toa moze da kreira atmosfera na :zblizuvanje na steta na atinskite interesi i da rezultira najmalku vo :ekonomska reunifikacija. Zaboravash edna rabota, a toa e deka Grcija e chlen na EU. Sprema toa mozhno e slednoto: Ako EU se rasturi, togash tvoeto scenario (ekonomski interesi i sl.) e mozhno. Od druga strana ako EU ne se rasturi, togash zavisi dali Makedonija ke stane chlen na EU ili ne (no kako shto mi se chini od vetuvanjata na EU do istochno-evropskite zemji nema nishto, npr. pred raspagjanjeto na YU, vo Slovenija se peeshe "Evropa '92", no se mi se chini deka i tie kje treba dolgo da chekaat). Shansite za Makedonija brzo da stane chlen na EU se minimalni (ako ne i nikakvi). Megjutoa vo sluchajot da stane chlen, togash i taka i taka granicite ke bidat samo administrativni, znachi scenarioto ke ti uspee. Druga mozhnost e politicharite da ja napushtat platformata na "ednakva oddalechenost" od sosedite i da pochnat da rabotat na predlog za nekakvi "konfederalni" odnosi so Grcija (dodeka eventualno ne bideme primeni vo EU). SAMO glasno razmisluvam, Pozdravi, Goce. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 08:56:59 +0000 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: "A.T. Fear" Subject: Re: soccer In-Reply-To: <6133.9411170155@potter.cc.keele.ac.uk> from "Peter Matevski" at Nov 17, 94 12:49:47 pm > > Macedonia-Belgium > 1-1 > Boskovski scored. > A creditable result I reckon. By the way Sportsnight in England just calls the Macedonian team 'Macedonia' - I can see the letter of protest from the Greek embassy now... Andy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 12:15:37 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: MIZAR In-Reply-To: <9411152238.AA28372@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Luben Todorouski" at Nov 15, 94 02:39:36 pm Zdravo, > > Bidete pozdraveni i ako nekoj moze da najde CD so soodvetna muzika, ve > molam neka mi se javi. > > Blagodaram Bube > > > Luben Todorovski > 2618 S. Carrollton Av. > New Orleans LA 70118 > U.S.A. > tel. 1(504)8614897 CD od Mizar ! Toa kje bide mnogu teshko, ako ne i nevozmozhno da se najde. Koga Mizar bea na vrvot od slavata vo MAkedonija, CD se probivashe na Makedonskiot pazar. Osven kaseti ne veruvam deka kje mozhe da se najde nekoj drug nositel na podatoci, na koj shto kje ima muzika od mizar. Jas od Mizar ja imam kasetata "Svjat dreams" i del od stariot album, koj shto mi e vo ochajna sostojba vo Skopje. Vprochem vo ochajna sostojba i go dobiv albumot, taka da na mojot podobar gramophon nekjev ni da ja pushtam. Sepak nekako uspeav na kaseta da gi presnimam "Zlatno sonce", "Bdenie" i "10XX". Ciao Alex ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 12:59:24 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: soccer In-Reply-To: <9411170150.AA29025@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Peter Matevski" at Nov 17, 94 12:49:47 pm Zdravo, > > Macedonia-Belgium > 1-1 > Boskovski scored. > imav mozhnost na Eurosport da ja gledam utakmicata ( najvazhnite delovi ). Smeshki! Ja znaete makedonskata izreka, "kaj so ksmet se rodil na ulica frli go ubav zhivot kje prozhivee" ili taka nekako. Istoto vazhi i za makedonskata reprezentacija. Frli me majko na ulica. Tri pati makedonskiot tim dojde do belgiskiot gol. Ball possesions beshe 60% vs 40% vo korist na Belgija. Treba pesmi vo crkva da mu peeme na Michell Proudhomme ili taka nekako ( Mishko Prudovski ) :). Boshkovski trchashe po topkata i sigurno nemashe da ja stigne. Vo toj moment Proud... istrcha od svojot gol da ja izbie topkata so racete, no ja izbi direktno do Boshkovski, koj iznemoshten ( kutriot ) so sudni maki ja plasira vo belgiskiot gol ( t.e. topkata odvaj se dotrkala do golot, t.e. se odbi od skoro lipsaniot boshkovski ). Inaku nashite se branea celo vreme. Ne znam zoshto imame takva defenzivna taktika ( striktno defenzivna ). Ova go velam deka od tri pati pred belgiskiot gol tri pati mozhevme da napravime neshto. Jas veruvam deka ako Panchev chalamdzhijata kje igrashe po izvedeniot korner koga za malku kje beshe 2:1 za nas, kje beshe pretvoren vo gol. Inaku se gleda deka na Makedonskiot tim mu treba ushte mnogu profesionalnost. Najdobro toa se gleda shto nashite ne znaat da ja smirat topkata koga e kaj niv, a posebno koga se dotrkaluva do niv. No so vakov ksmet i prvaci kje staneme, a vprochem i sme zasluzhile. :) Long live the Macedonian soccer team and Andon D. Tschuess Alex P.S. Kakov beshe grbot shto nashite go imaa na dresovite ? Ako nekoj znae neka ne kjuti, bash bi me interesiralo.. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 14:14:41 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Penzioneri Vlatko O. reche: > Kire Vidimce pisuva: > > > Greshka. I po TITO - KIRO. ;) > > Ustvari, i Tito (Petkovski) mozhe da posluzhi. Na postizbornata > > konvencija na SZM, posetitelite konechno mozhea da si ja > > ispushat dushata so gromoglasnoto (i skoro nekolku-minutno) > > skandiranje "Tito, Tito, Tito...". Se razbira, dobar del > > od niv bea postari lugje - penzioneri. > > > Sto ima loso vo toa. Zarem ne smeat lugjeto da si kazat sto im lezi > na dusata? Ako ne se lazam toa e demokratija, sekoj da moze da si > se opredeli kako saka, i da ne bide kritikuvan za toa. Sekoj si ima > pravo na licno mislenje, i javno iskazuvanje na toa mislenje (freedom Ehej, zaluta. :) Ne rekov deka nemaat pravo. Ako sakaat i "Staljin, Staljin..." neka skandiraat. Nivno pravo. Samo glasno razmisluvav. :> > of thought and freedom of speech). A i sto im fali na penzionerite? > Ili naseto opstestvo treba da se grizi i da go slusa samo glasot na > mladite? Da ne zaboravime, eden den site nas toa ne ceka. Zarem > sakame nekoj taka za nas da vika: "pusti gi penzioneri..." Bogami, koga kje bidam penzioner, ako nekoj ne me trpi kje go sfatam. :))) Shega na strana, starite lugje se sekogash malku "odlepeni". KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 14:14:14 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Popis NASELENIE VO REPUBLIKA MAKEDONIJA SPORED POPISITE 1953, 1961, 1971, 1981, 1991 i 1994 GODINA PO NACIONALNA PRIPADNOST (spored "Nova Makedonija") +-----------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+ | | '53 | '61 | '71 | '81 | '91 | '94 | +-----------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+ | Vkupno | 1304514 | 1406003 | 1647308 | 1909136 | 2033964 | 2075196 | +-----------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+ | Makedonci | 860699 | 1000854 | 1142375 | 1279323 | 1328187 | 1378687 | | Albanci | 162524 | 183108 | 279871 | 377208 | 441987 | 478967 | | Turci | 203928 | 131481 | 108552 | 86591 | 77080 | 81615 | | Romi | 20462 | 20606 | 24505 | 43125 | 52103 | 47408 | | Vlasi | 8668 | 8046 | 7190 | 6384 | 7764 | 8571 | | Srbi | 35112 | 42728 | 46465 | 44468 | 42476 | 39865 | | Ostanati | 13111 | 19180 | 38350 | 72037 | 84068 | 40079 | +-----------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+ Napomena: Od 2,075,196 zhiteli na RM, 1,936,877 zhiveat momentalno vo RM, dodeka 138,319 lica prestojuvaat edna ili povekje godini vo stranstvo. Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 15:26:25 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: Skopje's architecture In-Reply-To: <9411170239.AA29846@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Todd Mickov" at Nov 17, 94 01:36:37 pm Zdravo, > > I'm not too happy about Sheraton being built on this site either. It's > somewhat too central, too grand and important for Sheraton to be in the > city's very centre. Why don't they build it somewhere between MNT and > towards MRTV and get rid of those shambles in between or somewhere > around that area, east of Vardar. > People live in those shambles. First you would have to find a apropriate place for the people to live there and then you could start planing. All of that would measurably raise the cost and the amount of invested money needed for the project. I'm also against building it in the city center, becouse there is a little ( dirty - like everything else ) green spot, with some trees and grass, and in dear betonized Skopje green spots are a rarity worthy to be preserved. > I'm actually an old architecture buff, and I get so depressed seing > pictures of old Skopje with all those grand old buildings that were > virtually flatened by the '63 earthquake. I agree with you, at that time Skopje at lest had a certain flair ( although I doubt that it was cleaner ). You know a city starts to build it's spirit long after the buildings are built. Even if you would reconstruct the old buildings now, you would have to alter them artifically to get the old touch back. I just ask you are there any money for that kind of projects ? > > Why don't they rebuild Oficerski Dom in its former glory instead of > Sheraton on this site, which currently I believe is a park. And on the > opposite side of Vardar where the old Dramski Teatar was (between Vardar > and Skopje's main bus station) again rebuild Dramski Teatar for some > other purpose maybe. I know this sounds extravagant and much too > expensive and is in contrast with Skopje's general trend towards modern > buildings. But don't you think this would give a more European feel to > Skopje and particularly its centre. (Pray to God they don't start building > skyscrapers and high rise towers, maybe somewhere further from the city > centre, to the east.) / If they would only fix up the old Cale and look after it. At least that would be the first step. Then they could show a bit of good will and finaly give the old stone bridge the propper look, not that ugly, ugly "stuff" they have installed on the sides of the bridge. Whats wrong about skyscreepers ? They can be made look beautifull ( but not in Skopje I guess couse the people could not care less about the buildings they inhabit ). > good scrubbing and cleaning? Skopje is not in need of scrubbing and cleaning, what we need is the flood, THE flood. Afterwards we can start scrubbing and cleaning. Tschuess Alex ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 14:15:16 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Soccer Zhidas wrote: > Please someone tell me how did the match finished > I am trapped in this lab working on a paper > RM-Belgium? 1:1 We were damn lucky. :) KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 14:15:32 PST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija Subject: Centar >Vanja reche: > >> Dali znae nekoj koje podracje vo opstina Centar Skopje e naseleno so Albanci? >> Vo kontekst na: >> >| Centar (Skopje)| 115 | Mevljan Tairi | PDP | > > Ako ne se lazham, se raboti za delot okolu Bit Pazar. > Kje se rasprasham pa kje odgovoram ushte ednash. > > Pozdrav, > KiRe ViDiMCHe Se rasprashav - definitivno se raboti za delot okolu Bit Pazar, ponatamu, delot okolu glavnata ulica koja od Bit Pazar vodi kon Chair (znachi dzhamijata Jaja pasha i okolina), se do raskrsnicata so John Kennedy. Pozdrav, KiRe ViDiMCHe =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 12:15:26 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@WAVE.SCAR.UTORONTO.CA> Subject: Scarborough JOKE (mayor)! I reported earlier that this past Monday, city councillor Frank Foubert was elected mayor of the city of Scarborough. For those of you that don't know...Scarborough is the 2nd largest municipality in Toronto with a population just under 600,000 and with the largest Macedonian population for a single city in Canada. Anyway....it is not a secret that Frank and the Macedonian community have been at odds for the many years now. He is the major NEGATIVE force behind anything the Macedonians try to do in Scarborough with the cooperation of the city. Frank was instrumental in not allowing us to fly our flag at city hall for an independence day celebration. He is a VERY good friend of the Greek community who has paid for his trips (FREE of charge) to Greece and as he puts it "Makedonia". This man is utter trash and he displayed it in his victory speech at his campaign head- quarters on Monday night. "City Scene" writer Stuart Green of the "Scarborough Mirror" newspaper wrote: (an exert) FAUBERT GETS OFF TO ROCKY START AS NEW MAYOR ...True to any slickly run campaign, his handlers were ready to whisk him off to the post election party when the heat got too unbearable. At that party, Faubert told a live television audience one of the things that won the election for him is his ability to build alliances with communities - all accept the Macedonian community apparently. With comments like the ones he made Monday night, though, he may be spending some time bridging the gap he has created. ... Steve Saragil _________ _________/ \ ___ __/ \________/ \__ _/ -=* StEvE SaRaGiL *=- \____ / e-mail: 90saragi@wave.scar.utoronto.ca \__ | \_ | Association of Macedonian Students at the \_ / University of Toronto \ | c/o SCSC University of Toronto \ | 1265 Military Trail, Scarborough, Ontario | | M1C 1A4 CANADA | \__ e-mail: Macedonian_Association@UTCampusLife.org ___ / \ / \_/ / There's only ONE Macedonia & it's NOT Greek!_/ __ / ___ _____ ___ / / \ | __ / @ Solun \ \_ \_ \/\ \__| \ AMSUT Hotline / \_/ | \ \ \ \ / \ +1 416 / | \ \ | | \ \ 236-6979 _/ | \_ \ | | | \________/ \____\ \__/ \__| MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS! DA ZIVEE MAKEDONIJA! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 15:34:14 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Vana Josifovski Subject: Re: MIZAR In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 17 Nov 1994 12:15:37 +0100." <199411171231.HAA18286@cis.ufl.edu> Svjat Dreams izleze na CD, mislam deka go izdade Helidon Maribor. Vo Slovenija go imase da se kupi pred 6 meseci. Pozdrav, Vanja ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 15:37:31 GMT-5 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: VLADIMIR OGNJANOVSKI Organization: Indiana State University Subject: Re: Belgija - Makedonija > Ima li nekoj informacija za rezultatite od utakmicite na Makedonija so > Belgija (A i mlada reprezentacija)? I dali bea istaknati znaminjata i > intonirani himnite pred pocetok na utakmicite? > > Blagodaram odnapred za informacijata > > Perica Za rezultatot vekje znaes, 1:1, a bila intonirana himnata, i znameto se veelo. UEFA ne dozvolila, ama belgijanci bile fraeri i gi nervirale grci. YES! Vlatko O. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 16:00:18 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Daniel Veljanovski Subject: Re: Soccer In-Reply-To: <199411171931.OAA05933@hertz.njit.edu> Kiril Vidimce rece: > > Please someone tell me how did the match finished > > I am trapped in this lab working on a paper > > RM-Belgium? > > 1:1 > > We were damn lucky. :) Konecno i nas da ne strepi malku sreka. Mislam, posle ona sto se sluci na Makedonija - Danska posebno koga primivme gol pred samiot kraj (1:1) iako bevme mnogu podobri celo vreme. Daniel > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - > = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = > = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = > - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 16:06:56 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Daniel Veljanovski Subject: Re: Popis In-Reply-To: <199411171452.JAA29848@hertz.njit.edu> On Thu, 17 Nov 1994, Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija wrote: > NASELENIE VO REPUBLIKA MAKEDONIJA SPORED POPISITE 1953, > 1961, 1971, 1981, 1991 i 1994 GODINA PO NACIONALNA PRIPADNOST > (spored "Nova Makedonija") > > +-----------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+ > | | '53 | '61 | '71 | '81 | '91 | '94 | > +-----------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+ > | Vkupno | 1304514 | 1406003 | 1647308 | 1909136 | 2033964 | 2075196 | > +-----------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+ > | Makedonci | 860699 | 1000854 | 1142375 | 1279323 | 1328187 | 1378687 | > | Albanci | 162524 | 183108 | 279871 | 377208 | 441987 | 478967 | > | Turci | 203928 | 131481 | 108552 | 86591 | 77080 | 81615 | > | Romi | 20462 | 20606 | 24505 | 43125 | 52103 | 47408 | > | Vlasi | 8668 | 8046 | 7190 | 6384 | 7764 | 8571 | > | Srbi | 35112 | 42728 | 46465 | 44468 | 42476 | 39865 | > | Ostanati | 13111 | 19180 | 38350 | 72037 | 84068 | 40079 | > +-----------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+ Kolku ubavi brojki!! Dodeka nie lazecki se mnozime po 10 - 30,000 na dekada, Albancite toa go pravat po 100,000. E aj sega. Pozdrav, Danny V. > Pozdrav, > KiRe ViDiMCHe > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > - Kiril Vidimche - vkire@lotus.mk - "I hear and I forget. - > = Bojmija 8/24 = kvidimce@a1.news.mk = I see and I remember. = > = 91000 Skopje = Telephone: - I do and I understand" = > - Republic of Macedonia - +389-91-411-125 = -Confucious - > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 16:21:54 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Daniel Veljanovski Subject: Re: soccer In-Reply-To: <199411171318.IAA08023@hertz.njit.edu> On Thu, 17 Nov 1994, Aleksandar Aleksov wrote: > Zdravo, > mozhevme da napravime neshto. Jas veruvam deka ako Panchev chalamdzhijata > kje igrashe po izvedeniot korner koga za malku kje beshe 2:1 za nas, kje beshe > pretvoren vo gol. Inaku se gleda deka na Makedonskiot tim mu treba ushte > mnogu profesionalnost. Toa e se. Pancev + Savevski mozam da dodadam. Se sekavate li kakov tandem bea tie dvajca vo Vardar kago stana prvak na ex-YU? Ubilacki!! Za zal nitu vo edna od dosegasnite na Makedonija ne igrale zaedno. Dali nekoj znae za Pancev, dali ke igra so Kipar? Inaku ovde no New York i New Jersey, se pokusav za da gledam live MAC-BEL, duri im se javiv i na Belgiskiot Konzulat ako ambasadorot ja gleda ama se bese popusto, nema nikakov prenos. Jadnite imaat tolku malku Belgijci vo okolinava, sto nemaat ni svoj pab i club. > Tschuess > Alex > > P.S. Kakov beshe grbot shto nashite go imaa na dresovite ? Ako nekoj znae > neka ne kjuti, bash bi me interesiralo.. Koga gledav live Makedonija-Spanija vo eden Spanski pub u Newark, mislam deka zabelezav deka grbot e stariot (socijalisticki) grb na Makedonija. Regards, Daniel PS Alex, Darmstadt e 30 min of Frankfurt. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 18:07:14 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: REUTER: Census Igleda na Albancite im se chini deka cela Makedonija e kako Bit Pazar. Zaboravaat deka postoi i Istochna i Juzhna Makedonija kade shto Albancite se retkost. Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 21:18:52 -0500 Reply-To: canosk83@npeeserv.eelab.newpaltz.edu Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Mentor Canoski Subject: Re: REUTER: Census In-Reply-To: <941117180537_1679038@aol.com> from "Zoya Naskova" at Nov 17, 94 06:07:14 pm You, Zoya Naskova, in your message wrote: } }Igleda na Albancite im se chini deka cela Makedonija e kako Bit Pazar. } Zaboravaat deka postoi i Istochna i Juzhna Makedonija kade shto Albancite se }retkost. } }Zoya } Zdravo Zoya, Shto sakash da kazhesh so ova!!!!!!!!!!! Nie Albancite znaeme deka Bit Pazar ne e nitu vo Istochna nitu vo Juzhna Makedonija nitu pak vo zapadna Makedonija. Aha, Zoya otkrila deka Albancite se retkost vo Istochna i Juzhna Makedonija. Kako dojde do toj zakluchok?!!!!!!!! :-)))))))))))))))) -- (-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-) ( STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK Mentor Cana (* student *) ) ( The College at New Paltz canosk83@npeeserv.eelab.newpaltz.edu ) ( Electrical Engineering canosk83@mead.eelab.newpaltz.edu ) (-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:14:31 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: soccer In-Reply-To: <9411180030.AA29604@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Daniel Veljanovski" at Nov 17, 94 04:21:54 pm Zdravo, > Toa e se. Pancev + Savevski mozam da dodadam. Se sekavate li kakov > tandem bea tie dvajca vo Vardar kago stana prvak na ex-YU? Ubilacki!! Za > zal nitu vo edna od dosegasnite na Makedonija ne igrale zaedno. Dali > nekoj znae za Pancev, dali ke igra so Kipar? Vidi Panchev sigurno zneash deka beshe kaznet so dve neigranja, pa taka da osven negovoto ego nema objektivni prechki toj da ne nastapi vo utakmicata so Kipar. Inaku ovde vo Germanija Panchev go smetaat povekje ili pomalku za Arschloch ( asshole ), iako go cenat kvalitetot na negovata igra. Jas go delam toa mislenje bidejki gospodin P. relativno arogantno se odnesuvashe za vreme na negovata ekskurzija vo Deutsche Bundesliga. > Inaku ovde no New York i New Jersey, se pokusav za da gledam live > MAC-BEL, duri im se javiv i na Belgiskiot Konzulat ako ambasadorot ja > gleda ama se bese popusto, nema nikakov prenos. Jadnite imaat tolku malku > Belgijci vo okolinava, sto nemaat ni svoj pab i club. Begaj, dobro shto ne ja gledashe. Osobeno po izramnuvanjeto sekoj moment mozheshe infarkt da te strefi! Choveku, samata statistika na poseduvanje na topki ( a da ne spomenuvam shutovi na gol, korneri, slobodni i t.n. ) zboruva za sebe. Sudijata ne morashe voopshto da trcha. Kje se plasirashe vo nashata polovina i stoi. No, dobro e se zavrshi na nasha srekja, pa zatoa da nazdravime na toa i da sonuvame za ponatamoshni uspesi na Mak.Socc.Raprezentacija. > Koga gledav live Makedonija-Spanija vo eden Spanski pub u Newark, > mislam deka zabelezav deka grbot e stariot (socijalisticki) grb na > Makedonija. I mene mi se chineshe taka, samo bez crvena petokraka na vrvot ( kade the klasovi zhito meet :)). No odozgore imashe edna crvena traka, koja shto mozhebi beshe nashto zname, no ne sum siguren. Inaku ja svirea glasno "Denes nad Makedonija se ragja". Yeah !! And let those who were botherd by our anthem die in their own excrements. :) > Regards > Daniel > > PS Alex, Darmstadt e 30 min of Frankfurt. > Znachi na 3.5 h od mene. No, problem. Ista oddalechenost kako do Strassburg ehh Strasbourg, samo na druga strana. Tschuess Alex ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 09:00:22 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Jordan Plevnas(?) In-Reply-To: <199411180145.UAA58788@tequesta.gate.net> Prasanje i molba do site: Prijateli na Makedonija ne prasuvaat za textot napisan od nekojsi (sprema niv) Jordan Pelven(?), koi moze verojatno da bide Jordan Plevnas. Naslovot na textot e (sprema niv) "The Life Story of the Poet Isidore Solunski". Dali nekoj ima slusnato za takov tekst i kako moze da se dobie? Blagodaram Slavko ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 14:17:00 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Vana Josifovski Subject: Re: Popis In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 17 Nov 1994 16:06:56 EST." <199411180258.VAA18317@cis.ufl.edu> Ova e odnosot pomedju makednocite i albancite vo makedonija: '53 5.2958271 makedonci/albanec '61 5.4659218 '71 4.0817913 '81 3.3915585 '91 3.0050363 '94 2.8784593 Po moe "zadnicki zivot" mora da podrazbere i stabiliziranje na ovi brojki. Dodatno predpostavuvam deka makednoskata populacija e dosta postara vo posek od albanskata. Jas sum slusnal mislenje deka pred dve godini za upis vo prvo oddelenie imalo povece albanski deca odosto makedonski. Drugo, brojkite se proizvod na pogolem natalitet, kako i na naseluvanje i toa mora da se sopre. Ako ovie problemi ne se resat, kaj makednocite ce se pojavi (uste pojako) custvo na zagrozenost sto e prv cekor kon haos. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 14:43:27 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Igor Veljanovski Subject: muzika Zdravo.. evo gi top 10 pesni vo Anglija i Evropa za ovaa nedela: TOP 10 CHART-ENGLAND 10.stay-Lisa Loeb 9.some girls-Ultimate Kaos 8.hey now-Cindy Lauper 7.oh baby I..-Eternal 6.welcome to tomorrow-Snap 5.she's got that vibe.-R.Kelly 4.sweetness.-Michele Gayle 3.saturday night..-Whigfield 2.always.-Bon Jovi 1.baby come back.-Pato Banton TOP 10 CHART-EUROPEAN 10.eins,zwei,polizei..-MO-DO 9.welcome to tomorrow..-Snap 8.baby come back..-Pato Banton 7.i swear..-All4One 6.sure..-Take That 5.7 seconds..-Youssou N'Dour 4.cotton eye joe..-Rednex 3.love is all around..-Wet Wet Wet 2.always..-Bon Jovi 1.saturday night..-Whigfield pozdravi...igor( on the lovely Syracuse University campus ) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 17:22:39 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: Re: MAK-NEWS 18/11/94 (M.I.C.) On Nov.18, MIC reports: > EXCERPTS FROM INTERVIEW WITH FADIL SULEYMANI - > PRESIDENT OF STEERING COMMITTEE FOR ESTABLISHMENT OF UNIVERSITY > IN ALBANIAN LANGUAGE IN MACEDONIA: "THERE'S NO TURNING BACK" > > PULS: What's the stance of the political parties? > SULEYMANI: When it comes to the University, they're all > a bit on the side, from the simple reason that I believe that > their main task is to handle politics, and we, the scientists, > are in charge of education. We are apolitical and we act only > within the framework of the law. ^^^^^^^^^^^ > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > We've decided to open an University and there's no > turning back. I don't want to scare you, but if any problems > arise, like prevention from the police, for which we already have > information, believe me, that will act bring all the people in > this country to their feet. I'll personally ask President > Gligorov for a green light to open the University. That will be a > discussion without tolerance, where the last word will be mine. > > > PULS: Have you already held concrete talks with the > Government and the competent Ministry? > SULEYMANI: We are making efforts to have contacts with > the Ministry of Education from which we are asking for permission > for the University to start working at once. We asked to talk > with the prime minister, with the rector of the Skopje University > and I believe it will soon come to that contact. We will knock on > all doors of the Macedonian system, as we want to stay in it. If > that is not made possible for us, we will act outside the > institutions of the system. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Something's fishy here. This guy is at least luying and, at the same time, so stupid that he can't even build a decent two paragraph consistency. I'll try to use all my brain power in deciphering: OK, so Mr. Suleymani WANTS to be "within the system" but the problem is that his butt is getting fatter and wider, so "the system" becomes too tight for him. And yet Mr.Suleymani still expresses the desire to stay "within". Unless "the system" doesn't change, thus accomodating to the evergrowing butt of Mr. Suleymani, he will "act" outside. As far as I can see... Cheers, Zoran ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 20:07:01 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Census (CONT.) SORRY, I PRESSED ENTER BY MISTAKE, SO I AM RESENDING THIS RE: Shto sakash da kazhesh so ova!!!!!!!!!!! Nie Albancite znaeme deka Bit Pazar ne e nitu vo Istochna nitu vo Juzhna Makedonija nitu pak vo zapadna Makedonija. Aha, Zoya otkrila deka Albancite se retkost vo Istochna i Juzhna Makedonija. Kako dojde do toj zakluchok?!!!!!!!! :-)))))))))))))))) REPLY: Vo odnos na ova: "Albanians had claimed they accounted for at least one-third of the population and were demanding an appropriate share of power. " -sakav da kazham deka koga Albancite si smetaat kolkav del od naselenieto tie se vo Makedonija, mi se chini deka tie se gledaat vo odnos na nivnata neposredna okolina, kade shto tie mozhebi navistina i se edna tretina od naselenieto (za primer go dadov Bit Pazar). Znaete, kako si stvarash utisok za svetot od neposrednata ti okolina. Ochigledno nekoi od Albancite "zaboravaat" (ne bukvalno) deka Makedonija e Istochna I Zapadna Makedonija i skoro vo polovina od Makedonija Albanci ne ni zhiveat. Vo istochna Makedonija zhiveat makedonci, romi, turci, vlasi, i drugi, i po edna ili dve Albanski familii. Taka, koga se smeta naselenieto na cela Makedonija, slikata e dosta porazlichna od shto im se chini na Albancite. Sekako, ova ne e edinstvenata prichina za nesoglasuvanjata, no sekako im dava 'psiholoshka" osnova na politichkite manipulacii. Ova e samo moj vpechatok. Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 21:00:03 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Reuter 11/18 X-To: BARTHJ@scpmg.com Greece blocks Macedonia's admission to CSCE By Michael Shields BUDAPEST, Nov 18 (Reuter) - Greece exercised its veto on Friday to prevent the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia's admission as a full member of the 53-nation European security organisation, officials said. Athens used the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe's (CSCE) principle that all decisions must be adopted by consensus to block Macedonia's bid for membership and limit its role to that of an observer to the group. ``We were unfortunately not able to agree to its participation as a full member of the CSCE,'' Greece's ambassador to the group, Dimitri Nezeritis, said after a meeting of the CSCE's Committee of Senior Officials (CSO). The CSCE, grouping the United States and Canada with European states, is the West's largest forum on security issues, but it has no real power or military force at its command. ``Insofar as our northern neighbour is concerned, we have grave doubts about their wish to cooperate as a factor of stability in our troubled region,'' he told reporters. Athens has accused Macedonia, which declared independence from Yugoslavia in 1992, of harbouring potential territorial claims over parts of Greece. It has urged Skopje to change its constitution and flag to make clear it has no such ambitions. Several other states, including European Union nations, have already established diplomatic relations with Macedonia. Macedonia's CSCE representative, Aleksandar Tavciovski, said he was disappointed that Greece had blocked its membership and called on other CSCE members to help break the logjam by the time CSCE members' leaders hold a summit next month. ``They (Greeks) are acting against the basic CSCE prinicple that all European states should be in the CSCE,'' he said. ``I think the CSCE should provide a helping hand to Greece because they have put themselves in a position from which they cannot get out by themselves,'' he added, noting Skopje's unsuccessful efforts for the past year and a half to attain CSCE membership was turning public opinion against the group. Greeks were also on the agenda when the CSCE's High Commissioner for National Minorities, Max van der Stoel, reported that the ethnic Greek community in Albania enjoyed generally favourable treatment. Relations between Greece and Albania have been at times tense over the treatment of national minorities. Van der Stoel told reporters Albania had made great strides to improve educational opportunities for ethnic Greeks in their native language, addressing their major concern, but could still make further improvements. He said he could not investigate the status of ethnic Albanians in Greece in light of Athens' opposition. ``The Greek foreign minister took the position that there is no Albanian minority in Greece,'' he said, adding: ``For me to work effectively it is necessary to have the cooperation of the government concerned.'' CSO officials were making no apparent headway in efforts to prepare sending around 1,700 peacekeeping troops to the troubled enclave of Nagorno-Karabach, diplomats said. ``They are still far apart on this,'' one official said, adding Moscow was still insisting it play the leading role in any force the CSCE would send to enforce a ceasefire in the largely Armenian-populated enclave within Azerbaijan. Disagreement on this have cast doubts on whether the CSCE summit could agree to dispatch the group's first peacekeeping mission, which would cementing its aspirations to become an effective tool to uphold the continent's security and counter ethnic conflicts. REUTER Transmitted: 94-11-18 13:58:37 EST ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 21:03:49 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Reuter: film OK Acad Colors 'Red' As Non-Swiss Pic HOLLYWOOD (Variety) - The Academy of Motion Picture Arts & Sciences will not allow Polish director Krzysztof Kieslowski's film ``Red'' to be the official Oscar entry from Switzerland. Though one of the producers and several cast members are Swiss and the picture was shot entirely in Switzerland, the Academy's foreign language film committee made its ruling based on the fact that the film's main creative contributors -- including director, writers, cinematographer, composer and art director -- are not Swiss. ``This committee is made up of filmmakers and they try to bend and flex the rules for entry to get as many pictures in as possible without destroying the integrity of the category,'' noted Academy executive director Bruce Davis. ``But in this case, it came down to an issue of creative control. When we're looking at films as possible entrants, we're looking to see that the key creative contributors are from that country.'' Davis said ``Red'' was one of two foreign entries that had looked troublesome from the start on the issue of artistic contribution. The committee decided to allow the second film, Milcho Manchevski's ``Before the Rain,'' from Macedonia, to qualify for consideration. Davis added that the committee's decision is not likely to change even if the filmmakers were to appeal, given the overwhelming vote within the committee to disallow it. While most of the official entries are now in, among the few remaining countries to submit are Israel and India. Reuter/Variety ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 21:13:01 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Reuter: soccer, etc. X-To: BARTHJ@scpmg.com Soccer-Most Belgians want Van Himst to quit, survey says BRUSSELS, Nov 18 (Reuter) - Most Belgians want Paul Van Himst to quit as Belgium coach following his team's disappointing 1-1 home draw against Macedonia on Wednesday, a newspaper survey published on Friday said. Asked whether Van Himst should to stay on, 60.3 percent of 1,010 men polled said no, the survey published by La Derniere Heure said. Only 34 percent said yes. REUTER Transmitted: 94-11-18 05:27:16 EST Soccer-Cyprus beat Armenia 2-1 in under-21 championship LARNACA, Cyprus, Nov 16 (Reuter) - Cyprus beat Armenia 2-1 (halftime 1-0) in a European under-21 soccer championship group two qualifier on Wednesday. Scorers: Cyprus - Marios Agathocleous (21st minute), Klimis Alexandrou (53) Armenia - Aroutiunian Aik (78) Attendance: 100 Group two standings (tabulated - played, won, drawn, lost, goals for, goals against, points): Belgium 3 3 0 0 15 0 9 Spain 3 3 0 0 8 0 9 Cyprus 3 2 0 1 4 8 6 Macedonia 3 1 0 2 5 11 3 Denmark 3 0 0 3 3 7 0 Armenia 3 0 0 3 2 11 0 Next match: December 16, Belgium v Spain. REUTER Transmitted: 94-11-16 11:16:00 EST Shto e ova?? Parliament was adjourned for an hour until around 1730 GMT but political sources said it was far from certain whether a pending no-confidence vote would be taken without a further adjournment until Thursday. It was the third postponment in a day of high drama in parliament following reports that a senior Roman Catholic official may have been involved in the handling of the child abuse case at the heart of a six-day government crisis. Reynolds, to incredulous laughter, said one of those to be interviewed was on a flight from Frankfurt to Macedonia while another was holidaying on the West Coast of America. Oppposition sources said they had heard reports that the Catholic Church may have written to Whelehan about the case of Smyth, who was jailed for multiple child abuse in June. They asked Reynolds to investigate and the embattled premier won two adjournments to probe their charges. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 01:03:11 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: Re: MAK-NEWS 18/11/94 (M.I.L.S.) English, Macedonian On Nov.18, MILS reports: > CENSUS - VOID, ELECTIONS - IRREGULAR > PDP's spokesman Mohammed Halili and member Bekhir Zhuta held > a press-conference in Tetovo, yesterday, to state the > party's evaluation of the census and parliamentary elections > in Macedonia. They stressed the census of population in > Macedonia was not objective and incomplete and that the > official figures do not present the real ethnic structure of > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > the population. being such, the results are regarded by the > party as null and void. One could ask himself why da'hell do a country need a census, when there are clairvoyants of such high quality, all over the place. Cheers, Zoran ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 08:19:12 -0500 Reply-To: canosk83@npeeserv.eelab.newpaltz.edu Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Mentor Cana Subject: Re: MAK-NEWS 18/11/94 (M.I.L.S.) English, Macedonian In-Reply-To: <9411190603.AA15643@gauss.ee.rochester.edu> from "Zoran Mitrovski" at Nov 19, 94 01:03:11 am You, Zoran Mitrovski, in your message wrote: } }On Nov.18, MILS reports: } }> CENSUS - VOID, ELECTIONS - IRREGULAR }> PDP's spokesman Mohammed Halili and member Bekhir Zhuta held }> a press-conference in Tetovo, yesterday, to state the }> party's evaluation of the census and parliamentary elections }> in Macedonia. They stressed the census of population in }> Macedonia was not objective and incomplete and that the }> official figures do not present the real ethnic structure of }> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ }> the population. being such, the results are regarded by the }> party as null and void. } }One could ask himself why da'hell do a country need a census, when }there are clairvoyants of such high quality, all over the place. } }Cheers, }Zoran };^) } Zdravo, Do not forget that the same political forces that changed my(my familiy's) last name from Cana to Canoski after 1945 are still in power. So how can I belive that these peopel are telling the truth?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- (-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-) ( STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK Mentor Cana (* student *) ) ( The College at New Paltz canosk83@npeeserv.eelab.newpaltz.edu ) ( Electrical Engineering canosk83@mead.eelab.newpaltz.edu ) (-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 13:17:22 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: The Bulgarians speak ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 04:56:47 UTC From: Angel Dimov To: mango@gate.net Subject: your mail Vo originalnata poraka Slavko (an157208@anon.penet.fi) napisha: >A koi se tie "nashi", g. Dimov? Sprema vasite napisi jas sum ubeden deka >Vasite "nashi" ne se voopsto nashi. Ili, Gospod da ne cuva ot takvi >"nashi". Sme gi imale, a ocigledno i denes si gi imame. Ako gi nemaveme, >ke si imavme drzava uste pred sto godini. Nashi po mene se site Makedonci. Patriot i predatel se relativni pojmovi. Edinstvenata razlika e shto, kako velish, "vashite-nashi" se na vlast vo Makedonija veke 50 (should I say 70 years?). Vistinskite patrioti ako dojdat na vlast vo Makedonia eden den, ke gi poznaeme po toa shto nema da gi prodolzhuvaat delbite na "nashi-vashi" i "vashi-nashi", od koj ochigledno vie ne mozhete da se oslobodite. Do togash, Gospod golem ... >BTW blagodarime za vcerasnite >anonimni napisi za Carnegi komisijata. Nema potreba da mi blagodarish mene (niti da mi persirash), oti jas ne gi ni prativ. Najarno e da mu se zablagodarish na an149531@anon.penet.fi. Ako vnimatelno poglednesh mojot id e an97122@anon.penet.fi. >: Ushte po interesno, kriteriumot za tova im e veruvanjeto vo >: oficielniot ("marksistichki") pogled kon nashata ponova istorija. >: Ne sakaat da razberat deka ima mnogu razlichni pogledi i tolkuvanja >: na istorijata, i deka nivniot e samo eden od mnozinstvoto. > >Se razbira! Zosto da si imame nase tolkuvanje na istorijata koga veke >mozeme da pozajmime gotovi tolkuvanja, "tie vistinskite", od komsiite koi >se eksperti za toa i mnogu po spremni od nas. Ne gledam zoshto e potrebna tvojava ironia. Jas nikogash ne kazhav deka treba da se zema onova shto go proklamiraat "komshiite". Naprotiv! Rekov deka tie se vo slichna sostojba kako i yugo-makedoncite chij pogledi se zvanichni i edinstveno pozvoleni vo RoM. Tvoite NE SE NEZAVISNI pogledi, ama, kako i mnogu drug - so jasna cel. Zhal mi e ako toa ne mozhesh da go vidish. >: Po mene samo eptem naiven chovek mozhe da veruva deka nashite komshii >: sekogash ja prikazhuvale istorijata kako shto si e, ama da se veruva >: deka drzhavnite istorichari vo SRM vo isto vreme toa go pravile - e >: chista ludost. > >Tocno taka! Naseto e se falsificirano, nemame nie istorija, ne sme ni ona >sto mislime deka sme. Za da znaeme koi sme, treba da gledame koi bile >"prodadenite dusi" vo nasate istorija i, bogami, zatoa imame golem izbor? "Prodadena dusha" za eden, e mozhebi svetec za drugi. Jas mozham da pretpostavam koj se za tebe tie, a i ti mozhesh da pogodish koj se predatelite po mene. I sam vikash deka tie shto mislele inaku od tebe bile pomnogubrojni vo nashata istorija. Tova e i mojata poenta. >Mozi duri da se narece i privilegija, da ne kazam luksuz! Odi na Jug, i, >voila, mozes da bides Grk vednaz, pa zarem nemame takvi na iljadi. Odi na >Istok... Imalo mnogu luge koj se prodavale za privilegiji od sekogash. Tova go pravele i pod Tursko, i Bugarsko i vo stara Jugoslavija i vo SRM i sega ... >: Zoshto chista ludost? Pa zatoa shto i najmaloto dete od Makedonija >: znae deka SAMO EDEN pogled na nashata nova istorija beshe dozvolen >: vo poslednive 50 godini. NIKAKVA alternativa, nikakov sudir na >: mislenja, nishto. Shto ti servira Laze Kulishot, Blazhe Konjot i >: crvenata tajfa - tova ti e. Sakash kupuvaj - sakash ostavaj. > >Sigurno, komsiskite "crveni" se mnogu podobri od nasite, pa neli tie >znaat... Site crveni se isti, po mene. Tuka nema nashi i nivni. Po mene, site se nivni. Na tebe e da reshish da li ke zastanesh so niv ili ne. >So edna golema razlika, g. Dimov, nasite "crveni", sprema mene, >otsekogas bile mnogu podobri od bilo koi komsiski "boi". Barem se nasi. >So drugi zborovi, g. Dimov, podobro komunist Makedonec, otkolku >ne-komunist ne-Makedonec. Tova e tvoj izbor. (a za mene ne e tova nikakvo iznenaduvanje) Sprema delata chovekot se ceni. Ako gi prodolzhuvash i podrzhuvash delata na Kolishevich, Konjoski i bandata, nema smisla da vikash deka si razlichen od niv. Mi e stra samo deka Makedonec za tebe e sinonim so srboman. >: Taka i nashiov Lubi, vo dalechnata i studenata Kanada, vospituvan >: verojatno od vesnicite na "Maticata na iselenicite", si go zima >: pravoto na dzhandar od pasoshkiot oddel na MVR, i reshava kogo ke >: go udostoi so imeto Makedonec i na kogo ke mu go dade siniot >: pasosh. (abe, da ne e za plachenje, slatko ke se nasmeevne.) >: > >Pa ocigledno! Neli Tito site nas ne napravi sto sme vo 1945! Vo isto >vreme imaa i 'brainwashing' ucilista vo celiot svet kade gi lazea lugjeto >deka ne bile Bugari tuku Makedonci! Makedonskata emigracija vo svetot e jasno podelena na onaja dojdena pred-1944 i post-1944. Tova e istorijski fakt. Za prichinite mozheme da diskutirame. >: Od druga strana, Daniel koj postirashe (pretpostavuvam bez da >: znae) falsifikati pechateni vo SRM od prevodot na knigata na >: Karnegievata komisia za Balkanskite vojni, ne najde za shodno da >: se izvini, ili barem da ni kazhe od kade gi zemal tia >: fikcii. > >Ama zatoa Vie vcera gi "post"-iravte. Uste ednas blagodarime, iako toa >base anonimno i sakavte da ne zavedete so "Skopie" mesto "Skopje". No nie >ne se lutime. Sekoj si ima pravo na svoe mislenje. Vidi pogore. Mi se javia destina Makedonci od cel svet so lichni poraki, no pak ne go postirav tochniot citat. (Mnogu bi se iznenadel koga bi gi videl ovija poraki). Iako beshe ochevidno deka e yugo-makedonska ujdurma knigata od kade postiral Danny. Gi utna, siroma, i iminjata na chlenovite na komisijata. Sakav Dancho sam da go napravi tova. No, nekoj drug ja svrshi zadachata za nego, i go stori rezil pred celiot anm. (prati mu poraka na an149531@anon ako te interesira da razberesh koj e). Da mi beshe celta da gi postiram citatite, ke go napravev tova odma, a ne po mesec dena. >A zosto vo sito >vreme avtori kako Anglicanecot Laffin, Francuzinot de Belle a i drugi >avtori zboruvaat deka ako se prasat selanite sto se ke kazat deka se >Makedonci? Ne li ti e chudno deka site ovie koj gi spomna se najgolemite sojuznici na Srbite od vremeto? Ili tova e "olesnitelna okolnost" za tebe? :-) >A zosto samo nekolku godini pokasno naogjame pisma vo Grckiot >"Rizospastis" kade Makedoncite se zalat deke se obezpraveni i deka gi >vikaat "Bugari"? I sam ubavo ko kazha - POKASNO! Tova ti e odgovorot. (btw, na srpski e "pokasno", an na makedonski "podocna", no tova nema vrska, te razbrav shto sakashe da mi kazhesh. Nali site uchevme srpski vo osnovnite uchilishta vo "slobodna" SR Makedonija. "Milina, shta da ti pricham". :-)) >: Neste li se prashale zoshto edna takva kniga nikogash ne e bila >: prevedena ili dostapna vo original vo SRM? Sigurno razlogot ne e >: finansijski, oti se preveduvaa i pechatea kaj nas zbirki na Japonska >: poezia i prikazni na svahili. Jas ja barav so godini vo skopskata >: biblioteka ovaa kniga, i nikogash ne mi ja dadoa so izgovor deka mi >: trebelo "pismo od moeto OOZT ili fakultetot za koj proekt ke sum ja >: koristel!?". > >Ama sigurno mozevte da ja najdete vo Sofija. Tamu ima prava sloboda. Ne znam, oti nikogash ne sum bil vo Bugarija. A za "prava sloboda" tamu ne znam, mozhe si mislish (kako simpatizer :-)) deka se kade bea komunistite tamu beshe i sloboda. Nashite luge imaat stradano vo Bugarija vo nekoj periodi isto kolku i vo dvete Jugoslavia, ako ne i povekje. >Srbite imaat edna pogovorka, koja ke ja citiram svesen deka ke me narecat >"pro-Srbin": "Tesko je kad se seljak pokonduri". Ove ne e uvreda za Vas, >g. Dimov. Ne znam kako drugo da ja razberam ako ne kako obid za uvreda? Imash li ti nekoja podobra ideja? A ako sakash da citirash srpski, barem napravi go "kako valja": se vika "pokondiri" a ne "pokonduri". (Shto ke pra'ish - "Nije lako Srbin biti".:-) Znaesh kako vikaat: vari go, pechi go, ke si ostanesh ona shto si. Nema edna pogovrka da te napravi srboman. Samo onova shto propagirash mozhe tova da te napravi. (dobro e deka imash barem svest za toa). >Imam samo eden sovet do Vas: ako se bavite so istorija odete do >kraj, inaku ima opasnost deka nema da ja razberete. I sam gledash kolku e besmislena ovaa rechenica. Oti nie site mislime deka onoj drugiot ne razbral i ne otishol do krajot ... >Po greska ova Vi go prakjam samo Vas, a ne na anm. Slobodno "post" irajte go. "Po greshka" i jas ti odgovaram samo na tebe :-). Aj so zdravje i oti ti mi dade sovet eve i eden prijatelski za tebe: ne veruvaj im tolku na komunistite. Sigurno znaesh (:-)) kako Srbuleto vika: "Ko sa djavolom tikve sadi, o glavu mu se lupaju". Mnogu pozdravi, Angel ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin@anon.penet.fi. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 15:06:27 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@WAVE.SCAR.UTORONTO.CA> Subject: Albanians Mentor Cana wrote: > You, SARAGIL STEVE, in your message wrote: > } > }You can be an Albanian, that is fine. BUT don't ask for too many things > }like universities paid for by the Macedonian gov't. If the Albanian > }gov't in Tirana will pay for it...got for it. > > See you are wrong here...... Albanians in Macedonia work there, pay their > taxes there, are part of the population in Macedonia...and still you are > telling me that I HAVE no rights to get educated > there....?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We ALbanians, together with Macedonians, and > other people have build the Universities in macedonia don't forget that..... > Are you telling me that I have no rights to get educated in Macedonia even > in Macedonian language!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mentor, I understand your point. You DO have the right to be educated, however, ONLY in the Macedonian language and NOT Albanian if it is to be paid by the gov't. Regardless of whether you pay taxes or not! Macedonia is NOT a bilingual country, it is unilingual - Macedonian. Therefore, it does not have to educate the Albanian minority if it does not feel there is a real demand for it, or whatever the reason. If the Albanian ppl took it upon themselves to build their OWN university with MOST of the funds coming from their community, I would say that the gov't SHOULD then help alittle by giving a grant to help finish the project. HOWEVER, for the gov't to pay for the whole thing or more than 50% is not what most ethnic Macedonians want because it will lend to the fact that in 50 yrs time, Macedonians and Albanians will make up an equal share of the population. THIS IS OUR GREATEST FEAR!!!!! Macedonia is the land of (ethnic) Macedonians! It is an Eastern- Orthodox country. We want to keep this the way it has been for centuries. You have your country - Albania. BUILD IT UP!!!!! Make it into the world class center is has DEFINITE potential to be. Just DO NOT turn MACEDONIA into a tiny Albanian state. I have NOTHING against Albanians and Albania. However, I, like MANY Macedonians are concerned with the road that the country is taking so far. We DO NOT like it! All the music, for example, coming out of Macedonia is GYPSY! What ever happend to MACEDONIAN music?!!!!! Little things like this are turning our country into a state that "Once was" Macedonian. However.... :) > HOW ABOUT MACEDONIANS IN ALBANIA AND GREECE.... SHOULDN'T THEY HAVE THE > RIGHT TO GET EDUCATED IN THESE COUNTRIES IN MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE???????????? First of all.....this will NEVER happen in either of the countries you mentioned because they BOTH have hostile intentions toward their minorities, namely the Macedonians. HECK...one doesn't recognize us (HELLass) and the other (Albania) has done NOTHING for the Macedonians in their country....until recently and very minimally. BUT...to answer the question. I think that if the Macedonians in either country could muster up the support of the ppl in their community to build schools with the help of the Macedonian gov't, then YES they should be educated in Macedonian. BUT....I don't think that either gov't should spend their $$$$ on building schools for their minorities if the minorities can't raise the money themselves and support the institutions. I live in Canada. The largest ethnic population from Europe in Canada is the Italians. The largest amount of Italians outside of Italy in the world live in the Southern Ontario region (Toronto). There are close to 500,000 Italians here. That is more than all the Albanian population in Macedonia. For the Italians to ask the Cdn. gov't to build them schools, let alone ONE university taught in the Italian language would be a complete JOKE here in CAnada. The media would have a damn field day. It is just not done. It would be a WASTE of money. BUT....if the (very rich) Italian community raised the money on their own, the media would be on their side and the gov't would give them a few million $$$ loan/grant to assist. That is how things are done Mentor! BUT...for the Albanians to ask Gligorov "Build us a university for the Albanians, taught in Albanian." GIVE ME A BREAK!!! That's crazy!!!!!! However, if the Macedonian country one day became bilingual - Macedonian and Albanian, then it would have to be done. HOWEVER, this is every Macedonains fear and lends to the fact that we don't want universities taught in the Albanian language. If you want that....then go back to Albania! Just like if I want to be taught in Macedonian...I'll fly back to Macedonia. Its REALLY that simple Mentor! Albanians already have too much in Macedonia!!!!!! You have MORE freedom in Skopje than you EVER did in Tirana. So don't bite off more than you can chew. > Sto si ze zapalil bre Stefan..... nikoj ne ke ja napravi makedonija da bide > albanska .... Jas znam sto si zapisav.....site nashi se plasime deka eden den Makedonija ke ima povekje Albanci od Albania. Zosto? Oti zivotot e decet pati podobar vo Republika Makedonija od Albania i vie ne ste budali. You know that why should I live in Albania when I have a better chance at everything in Macedonia. Out of all the countries that you border, Macedonia offers the brightest futures to Albanians. So as a Macedonian, I'm asking the Albanian minority to NOT take more than what the Macedonians (out of the goodness of our hearts) offered to give them. If you don't like....please go back to Albania! These are my thoughts..... Steve Saragil Toronto, Canada P.S. Ask any Macedonian whether they would prefer the Albanians to stay in Macedonia or go back to Albania. _________ _________/ \ ___ __/ \________/ \__ _/ -=* StEvE SaRaGiL *=- \____ / e-mail: 90saragi@wave.scar.utoronto.ca \__ | \_ | Association of Macedonian Students at the \_ / University of Toronto \ | c/o SCSC University of Toronto \ | 1265 Military Trail, Scarborough, Ontario | | M1C 1A4 CANADA | \__ e-mail: Macedonian_Association@UTCampusLife.org ___ / \ / \_/ / There's only ONE Macedonia & it's NOT Greek!_/ __ / ___ _____ ___ / / \ | __ / @ Solun \ \_ \_ \/\ \__| \ AMSUT Hotline / \_/ | \ \ \ \ / \ +1 416 / | \ \ | | \ \ 236-6979 _/ | \_ \ | | | \________/ \____\ \__/ \__| MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS! DA ZIVEE MAKEDONIJA! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "....for the Macedonians!" Albanians are not (ethnic) Macedonian. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 19:46:07 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Albanians There is only one Republic of Macedonia but there is more than one Macedonia. There's Greek Macedonia with its provincial capital of Salonica, there's Bulgarian Macedonia with its capital of Plovdiv, and there's the Republic of Macedonia whose capital is Skopje. The latter has many minorities including Albanians (about 23%) and others. Good luck with your new state! -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 20:04:48 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: Re: MAK-NEWS 18/11/94 (M.I.L.S.) English, Macedonian canosk83@npeeserv.eelab.newpaltz.edu writes: > You, Zoran Mitrovski, in your message wrote: > } > }On Nov.18, MILS reports: > } > }> CENSUS - VOID, ELECTIONS - IRREGULAR > }> PDP's spokesman Mohammed Halili and member Bekhir Zhuta held > }> a press-conference in Tetovo, yesterday, to state the > }> party's evaluation of the census and parliamentary elections > }> in Macedonia. They stressed the census of population in > }> Macedonia was not objective and incomplete and that the > }> official figures do not present the real ethnic structure of > }> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > }> the population. being such, the results are regarded by the > }> party as null and void. > } > }One could ask himself why da'hell do a country need a census, when > }there are clairvoyants of such high quality, all over the place. > } > }Cheers, > }Zoran > };^) > } > > Zdravo, > > Do not forget that the same political forces that changed my(my familiy's) > last name from Cana to Canoski after 1945 are still in power. So how can I > belive that these peopel are telling the truth?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One question-mark, and 23 exclamation-marks? What "political forces" and which "people" are you talking about? Moreover, I couldn't care less whom do you believe or not and what YOU think is true or a lie. There are things called LAW, ORDER and CONSTITUTION within a COUNTRY, all of which precisely describe the "rules of the game". These things, that you so conveniently manage to look over, define the rights and the responsibilities of each citizen, thus protecting me from whatever twisted conclusions your mind could act upon. > - - > (-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-) > ( STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK Mentor Cana (* student *) ) > ( The College at New Paltz canosk83@npeeserv.eelab.newpaltz.edu ) > ( Electrical Engineering canosk83@mead.eelab.newpaltz.edu ) > (-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-) Cheers, Zoran ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 20:28:31 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Albanians RE: Are you telling me that I have no rights to get educated in Macedonia even > in Macedonian language!!!!!!!!! REPLY: I do not understand what the point is here. Albanians have been and are educated in Albanian and Macedonian in Macedonia. There are publications and radio and TV programs in the minority languages, Albanian more than any other. That is more than minorities have in most countries in the world. I do not see a university in Spanish in Los Angeles, even though Hispanics aere a majority there. There is bilingual education in school, and they (and all of their $$$) have lots of problems with it. Students are graduating from high school not competent in English and, consequently, disadvantaged on the job market. My impression was, the same is happening with Albanian students in Macedonia. Moreover, we are talking resources here. Macedonia can hardly afford the universities it has. All they need now is a university for each minority. How about spending those resources to upgrade and equip the universities that are there. They don't even have an Internet connection in the country, for God's sake. Wouldn't all students (Albanian included) benefit more this way, than by mediocre half-ass universities? RE: HOW ABOUT MACEDONIANS IN ALBANIA AND GREECE.... SHOULDN'T THEY HAVE THE > RIGHT TO GET EDUCATED IN THESE COUNTRIES IN MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE???????????? REPLY: They could Just dream about the status Albanians enjoy in Macedonia. THIS APPLIES TO ALBANIANS AND OTHER MINORITIES, TOO: "I think that if the Macedonians in either country could muster up the support of the ppl in their community to build schools with the help of the Macedonian gov't, then YES they should be educated in Macedonian. BUT....I don't think that either gov't should spend their $$$$ on building schools for their minorities if the minorities can't raise the money themselves and support the institutions." ZOYA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 20:32:00 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Albanians RE: There is only one Republic of Macedonia but there is more than one Macedonia. MR. CAMP: I BEG TO DISAGREE. THERE IS ONLY ONE MACEDONIA, JUST THREE COUNTRIES HAPPEN TO BE PARTLY POSITIONED ON IT. ZOYA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 20:37:34 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: REUTER:Macedonia warns of wider war in BalkANS Macedonia warns of wider war in Balkans SKOPJE, Nov 19 (Reuter) - Macedonia's newly re-elected president warned on Saturday that the war in Bosnia was threatening to intensify and that the international community's efforts to halt the conflict were feeble. ``The war to the north of our country is assuming new proportions that point not only to the danger of its being prolonged and extended to other areas but also to the ineffectiveness of the international community,'' President Kiro Gligorov said in a speech. Gligorov, addressing a new parliament elected last month, said the West lacked a consistent strategy for the settlement of conflicts in the Balkans. The president said the former Yugoslav republic stood ready to hold talks with Greece to resolve a dispute over its name. Greece has imposed a crippling trade embargo on Macedonia demanding it change its name, constitution and flag. He said his country, which broke with federal Yugoslavia in 1991, had no territorial ambitions towards a northern province of the same name in neighbouring Greece. ``The constitution of the Republic of Macedonia does not comprise any territorial pretensions or express any involvement in the internal affairs of the Republic of Greece,'' Gligorov said. ``We are ready to talk about all issues that do not jeopardise our national identity and the dignity of our people. We are ready to sign an agreement with the Republic of Greece on the inviolability of our mutual borders that could be guranteed by the United Nations, the United States or the European Union,'' the president said. He also said he expected the establishment soon of diplomatic relations with the U.S. and said he hoped neighbouring rump Yugoslavia would recognise Macedonia as well. REUTER Transmitted: 94-11-19 16:38:39 EST ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 20:39:31 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: REUTER Central Europeans worried by fighting in Bosnia TURIN, Italy, Nov 19 (Reuter) - Foreign ministers from 10 central European countries on Saturday urged Serb forces to halt their latest offensive in Bosnia. ``The ministers expressed concern over the recent resumption of extensive fighting in Bosnia-Herzegovina and in particular the offensive carried out against the Bihac area,'' ministers from the Central European Initiative (CEI) said in a statement. Bosnia and Croatia are both CEI members. ``Ministers condemned the renewed shelling of Sarajevo, Mostar and other cities by Bosnian Serb forces, they called on all the parties to exercise the utmost restraint and to cease hostilities,'' added the statement, released after a meeting of CEI ministers in the northern Italian city of Turin. The U.N. Security Council is poised to authorise NATO jet fighters to confront Serb aircraft bombing Bosnia from Croatia. This followed the dropping of napalm and cluster bombs in southwest Bihac on Friday by aircraft belonging to Serb forces based in Croatia. The CEI foreign ministers also called for urgent talks between the government of the rump Yugoslavia and the leaders of the ethnic Albanian community in its Kosovo province. Austria, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Italy, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia and the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia are the other CEI members. The ministers signed an agreement on protecting the rights of minorities and agreed to seek ways to promote access for non-members to the European Union market. The CEI agreed to hold an annual summit involving heads of government and foreign ministers from October 1995. REUTER Transmitted: 94-11-19 09:19:49 EST ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 03:44:09 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Igor Petrovski Subject: Re: Albanians In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 20 Nov 1994 01:52:00 GMT." <199411200053.AA27979@kekec.e5.ijs.si> > Republic of Macedonia whose capital is Skopje. The latter has many > minorities including Albanians (about 23%) and others. > Good luck with your new state! I would say that all of them have (had?) minorities - like most of the Balkan countries do. Only some of them were so successful implementing 'one country - one nation' politics, that their minorities somehow disappeared :). You see, it never ceased to amaze me how come that in our, then communist country, minorities flourished and everybody could express his nationality, but in the neighboring 'cradle of democracy' there were no minorities at all. Any ideas? Igor. -- Microsoft is not the answer. Microsoft is the question. NO is the answer. Big Nose Sucks. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 23:35:50 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: Macedonia Glen Camp writes: > There is only one Republic of Macedonia but there is more than one > Macedonia. There's Greek Macedonia with its provincial capital of Salonica, > there's Bulgarian Macedonia with its capital of Plovdiv, and there's the > Republic of Macedonia whose capital is Skopje. The latter has many > minorities including Albanians (about 23%) and others. > Good luck with your new state! Thank you, sir! And I mean it. > -- > Glen D. Camp > Professor of Political Science > Bryant College > 401-232-6246 > Cheers, Zoran ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 02:16:50 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Vasil Babamov Subject: Albanians SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@WAVE.SCAR.UTORONTO.CA> wrote: Mentor Cana wrote: > You, SARAGIL STEVE, in your message wrote: > } project. HOWEVER, for the gov't to pay for the whole thing or more than 50% is not what most ethnic Macedonians want because it will lend to the fact that in 50 yrs time, Macedonians and Albanians will make up an equal share of the population. THIS IS OUR GREATEST FEAR!!!!! Macedonia is the land of (ethnic) Macedonians! It is an Eastern- Orthodox country. We want to keep this the way it has been for centuries. With all due respect for Steve's concerns that a way of life is being treatened in Macedonia by some of the demographic trends, the above statement goes too far and is not an accurate reflection of the state of affairs in Macedonia. Macedonia is not a land of ethnic Macedonians and definitively not an Eastern Orthodox country. It is a multicultural society with a deeply rooted and centuries old tradition of cultural diversity and religious tollerance not quite understood in some of the neighboring countries. The multicultural and multireligious character of the country is clearly reflected in the constitution , the laws of the country, and the statements of the elected representatives on the subject. It is equally not true that the demographics in Macedonia are changing all that rapidly. According to the comparison of the figures from the last six censuses from "Nova Makedonija" that Kire Vidimce kindly posted few days ago the percentage of Macedonians in Macedonia has remained stable at about two thirds of the population between 1951 and 1994 (it increased from 66 to 66.4%). The percentage of Muslims has similarly remained stable (it decreased from 28.1 to 27% over the same period). Similarly, the ratio of Christian to Muslim population in Macedonia has probably not significantly changed over the last few centuries. It is true that stability of the percentage of Muslims in Macedonia is largely due to the Turkish emigration in the fifties. The percentage of Albanians in Macedonia has nearly doubled since 1951 and that is indeed an alarming and destabilizing trend. A good part of that increases is however due to the uncontrolled immigration from Kosovo and in part from Albania. The immigration can reasonbably be expected to be slowed down drastically with the establishment of a state border with Kosovo and better enforcemnt of immigration policies. Whatever the demographic trends and the reasons for them may be xenophobia is not a solution to the problems. After all, he language, the customs and the religion of the Macedonians have survived five centuries of Muslim rule. One should just look south of the border to see what few decades of xenophobia and ethnic intolerance have accomplished. Steve Saragil Toronto, Canada Vasil ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 00:32:03 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Plamen Bliznakov Subject: Re: Albanians Igor Petrovski writes... >> Republic of Macedonia whose capital is Skopje. The latter has many >> minorities including Albanians (about 23%) and others. >> Good luck with your new state! > >I would say that all of them have (had?) minorities - like most of the Balkan >countries do. Only some of them were so successful implementing 'one country >- one nation' politics, that their minorities somehow disappeared :). > >You see, it never ceased to amaze me how come that in our, then communist >country, minorities flourished and everybody could express his nationality, but >in the neighboring 'cradle of democracy' there were no minorities at all. Any >ideas? In fact, the communist position on minorities and nationalities (at least for several decades after WW II) was to promote diversity. Affirmative action existed in our countries long before in came to America :-) (I know, there were specially reserved student positions in Bulgarian universities for minorities). So not just people were able to express their (different from the dominant) nationality, they were encouraged to do so. The idea of a multinational state ("a small USSR") went so far in Bulgaria after WW II that the Bulgarian nation turned out to be a tiny minority in Bulgaria (with several "nationalities" being administratively formed on a regional basis). These were just some ideas which might suggest an explanation for the question above... There was a move to the opposite extreme during the latest years of communist rule in Bulgaria. Bulgarian Turks were forced to change their names in the period of 1984-89. All documents bearing old names were altered, including the names of dead. This was called "a revival process". According to the official theory pretty much all of the Bulgarian Turks were in fact Bulgarians turned during the Ottoman rule Muslims (Pomaks). Hence, the process was just "restoring" the original Bulgarian names :-(( What a shame ! Best regards, Plamen Plamen.Bliznakov@ASU.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 02:39:58 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: REUTER:Macedonia warns of wider war in BalkANS Zoya's forwarded message by the President of the Republic of Macedonia seems to be a very sensible, hopeful, and creative demarche. I see some signs that Athens is also moving toward a similar demarche and hope a rapprochement is possible which would satisfy the legitimate security needs of *both* Athens and Skopje. -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 02:36:17 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Albanians "Also dass ist des Pudels Kern" as Faust replies when he first espies Mephistopheles! If there is only *one* Macedonia, who are the Macedonians? Are they Greeks (as the Greek Macedonians insist), Slavs as the Slavic Macedonians insist, or Bulgarians as the Slavic residents in Bulgarian Macedonia insist? Perhaps we need to ask, "what's in a name, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet." Surely there is room on this earth for a Republic of New Macedonia or a Vardar Republic of Macedonia or the Slavic Republic of Macedonia. The issue seems to me to be one capable of resolution given some goodwill and common sense on all sides! After all, the Greeks are having trouble with their Albanian neighbors, their Turkish neighbors, and their FYROM Macedonian neighbors. *They* have a good reason to find some way out of this semantic cul de sac. You Macedonians also have reason to work toward a solution since you can't get CSCE help or ship your goods via Salonica unless some resolu- tion is found. So let's wish Cy Vance and Matt Nimitz better luck than they had with the Bosnian holocaust and pray that a similar fate does not await the *one* Macedonia you recognize, Zoya. Pozdrav! -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 On Sat, 19 Nov 1994, Zoya Naskova wrote: > RE: > There is only one Republic of Macedonia but there is more than one > Macedonia. > > MR. CAMP: > > I BEG TO DISAGREE. THERE IS ONLY ONE MACEDONIA, JUST THREE COUNTRIES HAPPEN > TO BE PARTLY POSITIONED ON IT. > > ZOYA > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 10:26:01 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Igor Petrovski Subject: Re: Albanians In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 20 Nov 1994 09:01:00 GMT." <199411200803.AA29381@kekec.e5.ijs.si> > If there is only *one* Macedonia, who are the Macedonians? Are they > Greeks (as the Greek Macedonians insist), Slavs as the Slavic Macedonians > insist, or Bulgarians as the Slavic residents in Bulgarian Macedonia insist? There is one Macedonia (geographical region) shared among 3 countries. Like there is one America (continent) shared among don't-know-how-many-countries. So, who are the real Americans - the ones in Chile? Mexico? Columbia? > Surely there is room on this earth for a Republic of New Macedonia > or a Vardar Republic of Macedonia or the Slavic Republic of Macedonia. The But no room for Republic of Macedonia? > issue seems to me to be one capable of resolution given some goodwill and > common sense on all sides! After all, the Greeks are having trouble with > their Albanian neighbors, their Turkish neighbors, and their FYROM Macedonian > neighbors. *They* have a good reason to find some way out of this semantic > cul de sac. Poor Greeks, troubles all over the place, and they are so willing to resolve the issues. By closing the borders, for instance. And all they want us is to change our name, flag and constitution... (Sacha's sig, 'All I only want is to Rule the World' comes to mind ;-). Igor. -- "We are Microsoft. OS/2 is irrelevant. Unix is irrelevant. Open systems are futile. Prepare to be assimilated." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 06:33:27 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Albanians You see, it never ceased to amaze me how come that in our, then communist country, minorities flourished and everybody could express his nationality, but in the neighboring 'cradle of democracy' there were no minorities at all. Any ideas? Because giving rights to minorities was a leftist, socialist idea, not a "democratic"/capitalist idea. It came into the western countries through the influence of socialist ideas. (Just we were dumb enough to buy it all.) Moreover, the power have learned to use/manipulate these socialist ideas to their advantage; when we want to get on a country's case because we do not like it for any reason, we pick on their human rights and minorities problems. Otherwise, we just completely ignore it. Examples: Greece, China today, Pakistan, etc. Spheres of influence and national interest is the priority, not rights of some minority. Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 06:58:54 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Albanians from Vasil People feel harassed out of their homes and towns, Sir. Some are afraid to walk at night. There is talk of autonomy and secession. The culture clash is even more pronounced today when part of the people are trying to move into the next century, while others insist on hiding women behind walls. Young men and women of all religions are torn between what they want to be, what they were told they should be, and what the others around them are like. We cannot just discard people's fears and tell them they are crazy and shovinistic and should shut up and take it. If we do not help aleviate people's fears, they will grow even more resentful and angry, and possibly explode one day. We have to hear and understand, not preach lofty ideas. Each side needs to communicate its fears and be heard. Each side needs to be made to feel that someone cares and something will be done to better the situation. That is the only way to get mutual respect, not by singing hymns to multiculturalism. Multiculturalism means nothing if it is just an excuse to ignore a people's concerns. Macedonians and Albanians need to look at themselves and ask themselves how they contributed to the state of relations between the two groups today. And, it's no use trying to deny it; Albanians have a much higher birth rate than any other ethnic group in Macedonia. With that they are disadvantaging themselves and furthern straining the social services and demanding more and more resources of this small and poor country. What should Macedonians do to 'compete"? Start having a bunch of children themselves? Have you heard of overpopulation, global warming, exhaustion of the earth's natural resources? I, personally like everybody, until they threaten my well being. Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 07:19:45 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: One. two, three, or four, or . . . Macedonias RE: the *one* Macedonia you recognize, Zoya. Mr. Camp, I do not recognize nowadays. Everybody but Macedonians seem to be given recognizing power. You claimed that there were three Macedonias. Well, the territory of Macedonia is one, clearly shown on maps centuries old. There is one Republic of Macedonia and then, there is one Macedonia. You know, I did a presentation for my Economic Growth class a few weeks ago. Well, the countries which were the agressors and, later, the "losers" in WW II achieved the biggest economic growth since then. They are almost all cought up with the US economicly. The ones who fought against the "evil nazis" and which lost most, that is the Soviets, the Yugoslav partizans, and other little countries, are the ones nearing economic and political collapse. So, obviously being "good" does not always guarantee you will do well. Quite the opposite, it seems. RE: So let's wish Cy Vance and Matt Nimitz better luck than they had with the Bosnian holocaust and pray that a similar fate does not await the *one* Macedonia you recognize, Zoya. REPLY: Oh yes, we have been praying for the last thousand years, We are very good at praying. We will pray for the good will of the bullies around us. Maybe some God or Godess will finally hear us. Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 13:40:08 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: What's in a name? Glen Camp writes: > "Also dass ist des Pudels Kern" as Faust replies when he first > espies Mephistopheles! > If there is only *one* Macedonia, who are the Macedonians? Are they > Greeks (as the Greek Macedonians insist), Slavs as the Slavic Macedonians > insist, or Bulgarians as the Slavic residents in Bulgarian Macedonia insist? How about Macedonians as the Macedonians insist?! > Perhaps we need to ask, "what's in a name, a rose by any other > name would smell as sweet." Perhaps...And that's exactly what all these "stability-seekers" should ask themselves, too. If there's nothing in a name, why don't they just leave Macedonia alone? > Surely there is room on this earth for a Republic of New Macedonia > or a Vardar Republic of Macedonia or the Slavic Republic of Macedonia. Not on the territory of Republic of Macedonia, though. If you know of a place on the Earth whose inhabitants wouldn't object to your "name excercises", then please feel free and...excercise. > The > issue seems to me to be one capable of resolution given some goodwill and > common sense on all sides! We have expressed OUR goodwill thousands of times and even have written it down in our constitution. We don't plan to harm anybody, and yet we are patient enough to give all of the concerned enough time to see that. > After all, the Greeks are having trouble with > their Albanian neighbors, their Turkish neighbors, and their FYROM Macedonian > neighbors. *They* have a good reason to find some way out of this semantic > cul de sac. And we are showing them the way: Leave us alone, we are friends! They just have to open their eyes and take the first step. > You Macedonians also have reason to work toward a solution since > you can't get CSCE help or ship your goods via Salonica unless some resolu- > tion is found. Do you have the word "blackmail" in your vocabulary? Imagine... Your neighbour comes to your door and tells you that you have a mutual problem. Namely, he happend to have this unstopable urge to rape your wife TWICE. Naturally, he comes to you with good intentions to find a compromise solution to the problem. According to him, letting him rape your wife only ONCE would seem a reasonable compromise, and untill you accept that "compromise" you won't be allowed to go to the mall for shopping. I, being the smart mediator, would suggest you accept the compromise since the holidays season is comming and you need to buy some stuff for your kids. I expect you would listen to my smart suggestion and accept the compromise thus showing your good will, right? > So let's wish Cy Vance and Matt Nimitz better luck than they had > with the Bosnian holocaust and pray that a similar fate does not await > the *one* Macedonia you recognize, Zoya. Again, thank you for your good wishes. > Pozdrav! > > -- > Glen D. Camp > Professor of Political Science > Bryant College > 401-232-6246 > Cheers, Zoran ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 18:54:37 +0000 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: "A.T. Fear" Subject: Re: Albanians In-Reply-To: <6011.9411200803@potter.cc.keele.ac.uk> from "Glen Camp" at Nov 20, 94 02:36:17 am > > "Also dass ist des Pudels Kern" as Faust replies when he first > espies Mephistopheles! > If there is only *one* Macedonia, who are the Macedonians? Are they > Greeks (as the Greek Macedonians insist), Slavs as the Slavic Macedonians > insist, or Bulgarians as the Slavic residents in Bulgarian Macedonia insist? > Perhaps we need to ask, "what's in a name, a rose by any other > name would smell as sweet." > Surely there is room on this earth for a Republic of New Macedonia > or a Vardar Republic of Macedonia or the Slavic Republic of Macedonia. The Actually I'm not so sure. The problem with all these names is that they then allow Greece to keep a province of Macedonia with no qualifications. This will instantly be presented as the 'authentic' Macedonia by Athens. If RoM is to have a qualified name the Greek province should have one too for parity's sake Andy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 13:50:38 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Albanians Plenty of room (I hope) for the Republic of Macedonia which is why we Americans have tried to help Macedonia by stationing troops under the UN along the RM border together with Scandinavian countries. America means the US in common parlance, while North America is a geographic regioning encompassing the US, Canada, and Mexico. South and Central America are generally regarded as separate geogrphical regions with many different nations and languages (Haiti speaks Creole French while the rest of the island of Hispanola speaks Spanish in the Dominican Republic. Much of the rest of South America speaks Spanish (plus indiginous Indian dialects) except for Brazil where the main language is Portuguese (again with indiginous Indian dialects in the interior rainforests. As to Greeks being stubborn, I should know--I married one! But they also have a tragic history and are responding to it just as you re- spond to yours and we "Americans" respond to ours. The problem is to find a way to resolve our differences without war for war is the *only* alternative to a negotiated settlement. I'd be interested in your com- ments on alternatives to war in your area (please no flames though, let's keep it a pleasant discussion among friends!) -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Igor Petrovski wrote: > > If there is only *one* Macedonia, who are the Macedonians? Are they > > Greeks (as the Greek Macedonians insist), Slavs as the Slavic Macedonians > > insist, or Bulgarians as the Slavic residents in Bulgarian Macedonia insist? > > There is one Macedonia (geographical region) shared among 3 countries. Like > there is one America (continent) shared among don't-know-how-many-countries. > So, who are the real Americans - the ones in Chile? Mexico? Columbia? > > > Surely there is room on this earth for a Republic of New Macedonia > > or a Vardar Republic of Macedonia or the Slavic Republic of Macedonia. The > > But no room for Republic of Macedonia? > > > issue seems to me to be one capable of resolution given some goodwill and > > common sense on all sides! After all, the Greeks are having trouble with > > their Albanian neighbors, their Turkish neighbors, and their FYROM Macedonian > > neighbors. *They* have a good reason to find some way out of this semantic > > cul de sac. > > Poor Greeks, troubles all over the place, and they are so willing to resolve > the issues. By closing the borders, for instance. And all they want us is to > change our name, flag and constitution... (Sacha's sig, 'All I only want is to > Rule the World' comes to mind ;-). > > Igor. > -- > "We are Microsoft. OS/2 is irrelevant. Unix is irrelevant. > Open systems are futile. Prepare to be assimilated." > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 13:54:22 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Albanians If you want *further* ammunition for your "realist" view of int'l relations, just read the Athenians (i.e., yes Greek!) response to the Melians in Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War! The problem is that war as an instrument of change has become so bloody that it threatens entire civilizations now. So how can we resolve int'l issues on a more civilized basis? That's why I'm looking for (and I believe the US is looking for as well) at present. Witness Cy Vance and Matt Nimetz and US policy in B-H, RM, etc. -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Zoya Naskova wrote: > You see, it never ceased to amaze me how come that in our, then communist > country, minorities flourished and everybody could express his nationality, > but > in the neighboring 'cradle of democracy' there were no minorities at all. Any > ideas? > > Because giving rights to minorities was a leftist, socialist idea, not a > "democratic"/capitalist idea. It came into the western countries through the > influence of socialist ideas. (Just we were dumb enough to buy it all.) > Moreover, the power have learned to use/manipulate these socialist ideas to > their advantage; when we want to get on a country's case because we do not > like it for any reason, we pick on their human rights and minorities > problems. Otherwise, we just completely ignore it. Examples: Greece, China > today, Pakistan, etc. Spheres of influence and national interest is the > priority, not rights of some minority. > > Zoya > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 13:58:18 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Albanians from Vasil I agree completely. And I hope the US can make some kind of modest contribution. But the *real* resolution will have to come from thoughtful people like yourself, Zoya, who recognize the problems and passions of the the various actors in the Balkan drama. The world failed in 1911, in 1918, in 1939 and now in B-H. Can we do better? We have no choice but to try to win the race between education and catastrophe (a Greek word! ;-). -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 14:02:50 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: One. two, three, or four, or . . . Macedonias I agree completely, Zoya. However, it was Stalin who signed a Non-Aggression Pact with Hitler (the von Ribbontrop-Molotov Agreement). And the West sold the Czechs and Slovaks down the river at Munich. I remember these sellouts personally since I'm a bit older than you are I suspect. My point is, there's plenty of blame to go around and we have to deal with our problems *today* not curse the sanguine past for we cannot change the past--only the present. So please add my Protestant (Unitarian) prayers to yours! Affectionately. Pozdrav Glen -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Zoya Naskova wrote: > RE: > the *one* Macedonia you recognize, Zoya. > > Mr. Camp, I do not recognize nowadays. Everybody but Macedonians seem to be > given recognizing power. You claimed that there were three Macedonias. > Well, the territory of Macedonia is one, clearly shown on maps centuries > old. There is one Republic of Macedonia and then, there is one Macedonia. > > You know, I did a presentation for my Economic Growth class a few weeks ago. > Well, the countries which were the agressors and, later, the "losers" in WW > II achieved the biggest economic growth since then. They are almost all > cought up with the US economicly. The ones who fought against the "evil > nazis" and which lost most, that is the Soviets, the Yugoslav partizans, and > other little countries, are the ones nearing economic and political collapse. > So, obviously being "good" does not always guarantee you will do well. > Quite the opposite, it seems. > > RE: > So let's wish Cy Vance and Matt Nimitz better luck than they had > with the Bosnian holocaust and pray that a similar fate does not await > the *one* Macedonia you recognize, Zoya. > > REPLY: > Oh yes, we have been praying for the last thousand years, We are very good > at praying. We will pray for the good will of the bullies around us. Maybe > some God or Godess will finally hear us. > > Zoya > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 15:25:34 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: Albanians In-Reply-To: <199411200050.TAA14085@tequesta.gate.net> On Sat, 19 Nov 1994, Glen Camp wrote: > There is only one Republic of Macedonia but there is more than one > Macedonia. There's Greek Macedonia with its provincial capital of Salonica, > there's Bulgarian Macedonia with its capital of Plovdiv, and there's the ^^^^^^^^^ > Republic of Macedonia whose capital is Skopje. The latter has many > minorities including Albanians (about 23%) and others. > Good luck with your new state! > We all appreciate, I'm sure, your good wishes, Professor. I'll take the liberty to point to you that Plovdiv is not in Pirin (Bulgarian) Macedonia an therefore cannot be considered as a 'capital'. That role should go to, probably, Petrich. Also, although there are "several Macedonia's", as you point, there is only one sovereign state with that name and that is the Republic of Macedonia. The other two belong to separate sovereign states, obviously. Up to 1913 all these Macedonia's were a single unit. You also seem to imply that the Republic of Macedonia is the only one having minorities. The correct description should be that the Republic of Macedonia, being a democratic country, is the only one who recognizes and grants full rights to its minorities. The other two countries follow opposite policies i.e. suppression of minorities. Policies, which I'm sure you as being a Professor of Political Sciences, are familiar with. > -- > Glen D. Camp > Professor of Political Science > Bryant College > 401-232-6246 > > Slavko ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 16:05:52 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: Albanians In-Reply-To: <199411200759.CAA60306@tequesta.gate.net> On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Glen Camp wrote: > "Also dass ist des Pudels Kern" as Faust replies when he first > espies Mephistopheles! Dear Professor, I do understand the detachment with which you speak about our problems. That is obvious as the problem is not your name neither your identity. You'll forgive us that sometimes we seem unyielding as it's our name and idenity that is being questioned and negotiated. > If there is only *one* Macedonia, who are the Macedonians? Good question. Letely it seems that eveng among ourselves we cannot decide who is what. The answer to that should be what any person, when asked about his national identity, would reply. Since we are the only ones that identify as such i.e. Macedonians, there shouldn't be any confusion. The 'others' would surely identify themselves as 'Greeks' and 'Bulgarians'. Are they > Greeks (as the Greek Macedonians insist), Slavs as the Slavic Macedonians > insist, or Bulgarians as the Slavic residents in Bulgarian Macedonia insist? > Perhaps we need to ask, "what's in a name, a rose by any other > name would smell as sweet." Perhaps that would be true in the case of the roses. We humans seem to cling to our identity and hate when someone questions it. I would only imagine the reaction if someone tells us we cannot be Americans anymore since its a name shared by the whole continent. > Surely there is room on this earth for a Republic of New Macedonia > or a Vardar Republic of Macedonia or the Slavic Republic of Macedonia. Perhaps there is. I personally don't think so. We do have a name and any foreign attempt to change it should be considered as meddling in internal affairs of a soveriogn country, illegal according to the UN charter. But the Charter and any other UN regulation lately seem just pieces of paper so everything is possible. The > issue seems to me to be one capable of resolution given some goodwill and > common sense on all sides! Common sense? If there was such a thing in the Balkans we wouldn't have the war in Bosnia and all other problems. Common sense should tell Greece that there is no security threat from the RM and that we should be friends. Common sense should also tell them to recognize their monorities and treat them as human beings. After all, the Greeks are having trouble with > their Albanian neighbors, their Turkish neighbors, and their FYROM Macedonian > neighbors. That should only speak of Greece's behaviour and policies. *They* have a good reason to find some way out of this semantic > cul de sac. Why should they care? They get $6 billion a year from the EU, besides all other help, including military, from NATO, US etc. > You Macedonians also have reason to work toward a solution since > you can't get CSCE help or ship your goods via Salonica unless some resolu- > tion is found. That resolution is to change our idenity. Although there are people who would agree to that, most of us don't. RM's strategy should be building alternative transportation ways and non-reliance on the port of Salonika. CSCE membership is not so relevant, after all. > So let's wish Cy Vance and Matt Nimitz better luck than they had > with the Bosnian holocaust Did Nimitz partecipate in the Bosnian talks? I don't think so. Anyway. better luck would mean 'better pressure'. and pray that a similar fate does not await > the *one* Macedonia you recognize, Zoya. > Everything is possible. The Balkans are a highly volatile place. We migh have a war soon between Greece and Turkey. We might have a war in Europe if the US leaves. > Pozdrav! > > > -- > Glen D. Camp > Professor of Political Science > Bryant College > 401-232-6246 > > > On Sat, 19 Nov 1994, Zoya Naskova wrote: > > > RE: > > There is only one Republic of Macedonia but there is more than one > > Macedonia. > > > > MR. CAMP: > > > > I BEG TO DISAGREE. THERE IS ONLY ONE MACEDONIA, JUST THREE COUNTRIES HAPPEN > > TO BE PARTLY POSITIONED ON IT. > > > > ZOYA > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 17:11:58 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: Albanians In-Reply-To: <199411201855.NAA02583@tequesta.gate.net> On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Glen Camp wrote: > Plenty of room (I hope) for the Republic of Macedonia which is why > we Americans have tried to help Macedonia by stationing troops under the > UN along the RM border together with Scandinavian countries. Is that entirely true? As an Macedonian-American I don't think we did that to help RM, where we don't have any interest, but rather to prevent a new Balkan war which might pit Turkey and Greece on opposite warring side. Now there we have a clear interest. A war like that can mean an end to NATO and that can have unforseen consequences. If we really wanted to help RM, then we wouldn't have played along Greece's irreational fears but recognized RM with its constitutinal name and flag and helped it arm to be able to protect itself and provide it with all kinds if aid. > America means the US in common parlance, while North America is > a geographic regioning encompassing the US, Canada, and Mexico. South > and Central America are generally regarded as separate geogrphical regions > with many different nations and languages (Haiti speaks Creole French while > the rest of the island of Hispanola speaks Spanish in the Dominican Republic. > Much of the rest of South America speaks Spanish (plus indiginous Indian > dialects) except for Brazil where the main language is Portuguese (again > with indiginous Indian dialects in the interior rainforests. We all know that, of course. But since all these countries belong to America (the continent) they would all have a legal right to be called Americans and challenge our right to exclusivity on the name. Would we be prepared to consider a change to our name? I doubt it. > As to Greeks being stubborn, I should know--I married one! But > they also have a tragic history and are responding to it just as you re- > spond to yours and we "Americans" respond to ours. Tragic history, Sir? You are probably refering to the Civil War and I have to agree with you. One of the peoples that suffered most were Macedonians. But I would hardly consider Greece's history as tragic. On the contrary. They had tripled their size at the turn of the century. That is hardly tragic. If you want real tragic, consider Macedonia's history. We fought in evevry damn war, civil, Balkan or World, and today we remain partitioned and have hard time asserting our identity and indipendance. The problem is to > find a way to resolve our differences without war for war is the *only* > alternative to a negotiated settlement. Not in the Balkans, it would seem. Wars just postponed problems for later resolution so today we are facing most of the same problems from before. Hemce we should reject war as a solution. Is solution possible? Definetely. It all lies in Greek hands. We cannot be reasonably excpected to change our identity because it provokes irrational fears in their minds. We are ready, I'm sure, to provide them with every guarantee possible that would help address their rational fears. Securuty of their borders is the only and foremost concern and we have already satisfied that with the constitutional amendements rejecting border changes. Other treaties in that effect could be signed. For their irrational fears they should contact a psychiatrist. Seeriously, despite their past and present treatment, Macedonians like Greeks and would like to be friends with them. I'd be interested in your com- > ments on alternatives to war in your area (please no flames though, let's > keep it a pleasant discussion among friends!) > > -- Although it might seem farfetched, I already have proposed an immediate solution to our Greek opponents. It was rejected, of course. The proposal goes as follows: immediate accession of RM to EU, WEU and NATO. Since RM is a small country that shouldn't be very costly. But imagine the benefits: no more borders between Greece and RM and therefore no fears. All kinds of coperation and possibility of Greece to have a say in Macedonian internal matters and therefore eradicate much feared 'irredentism'. Simple, isn't it? > Glen D. Camp > Professor of Political Science > Bryant College > 401-232-6246 > > Slavko ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 14:58:52 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@WAVE.SCAR.UTORONTO.CA> Subject: QUESTION I would like to pose a question to the group here: How do you feel about the Albanian minority in the Republic of Macedonia? Do you feel that they have it TOO good and bitch and complain alot? Do you think that with their HIGH birth rate that they will own the land by population in, say 50 yrs? Would you prefer to have them there or not? These are just general questions that I wonder how the Makedon members will respond to. As a Macedonian, and with conversations with other Macedonians, I already know the answers. However, I would like to see what this forum has to present. Please REPLY. Steve Saragil NOTE: Please, ABSOLUTELY NO hostility in your replies! I would like to see HONEST, intelligent dialogue. This is what MAKEDON is here for. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 17:18:24 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: Albanians In-Reply-To: <199411201921.OAA50830@tequesta.gate.net> On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Glen Camp wrote: > If you want *further* ammunition for your "realist" view of int'l > relations, just read the Athenians (i.e., yes Greek!) response to the > Melians in Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War! > The problem is that war as an instrument of change has become so > bloody that it threatens entire civilizations now. > So how can we resolve int'l issues on a more civilized basis? > That's why I'm looking for (and I believe the US is looking for as well) > at present. Witness Cy Vance and Matt Nimetz and US policy in B-H, RM, > etc. Does the US really does that, Professor? With the Greek lobby, Sarbanes, Stephanopulos, Lee Hamilton and the likes breathing behind their backs? I somehow cannot beleive it. > > -- > Glen D. Camp > Professor of Political Science > Bryant College > 401-232-6246 > Slavko ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 18:28:40 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: Re: QUESTION > I would like to pose a question to the group here: > > How do you feel about the Albanian minority in the Republic of > Macedonia? I feel that they are there. > Do you feel that they have it TOO good and bitch and complain alot? You can't really say that anybody on Balkans "has it too good" but I have witnessed large quantities of nonconstructive "bitching and complaining" from albanian party leaders. I also must point out that it's not what I think, but whether what they do is lawfull and constitutional or not. I would erase from the register any pol.party that OPENLY works against the constitution and the state. > Do you think that with their HIGH birth rate that they will own the > land by population in, say 50 yrs? Yes, and that is definitely an issue that has to be discussed. You can't preach and whine about progress and democracy and yet keep your wife locked between four walls in order to USE her as a mere mating machine. The religion and fundamentalism, I think are the largest obstacles here. Also laws can be made that would guarantee soc. security, health benefits and discounted education to say 2-3 children per family. If anyone pleases to have 8 kids, they better have a bag of money prepared. Notice that I never suggest any ethnical-discriminatory agenda. Simply the economy and the size of the state can not accomodate large population increases and steps have to be taken. > Would you prefer to have them there or not? Any loyal law-abiding citizen of Rep. of Macedonia is entitled to all the rights that the law and the constituion grant him/her. I can't see why any preferance of mine should play any role in his/her life. > These are just general questions that I wonder how the Makedon > members will respond to. > > As a Macedonian, and with conversations with other Macedonians, I > already know the answers. However, I would like to see what this > forum has to present. > > Please REPLY. > > Steve Saragil > > NOTE: Please, ABSOLUTELY NO hostility in your replies! > I would like to see HONEST, intelligent dialogue. > This is what MAKEDON is here for. Cheers, Zoran ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 00:11:17 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Albanians Possibly, but Greek Macedonia is a province (Nomos) of Greece, but RoM is a soverign, independent state, and juridically equal to all others under customary international law. Aren't you comparing oranges and loca- motives? -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, A.T. Fear wrote: > > > > "Also dass ist des Pudels Kern" as Faust replies when he first > > espies Mephistopheles! > > If there is only *one* Macedonia, who are the Macedonians? Are they > > Greeks (as the Greek Macedonians insist), Slavs as the Slavic Macedonians > > insist, or Bulgarians as the Slavic residents in Bulgarian Macedonia insist? > > Perhaps we need to ask, "what's in a name, a rose by any other > > name would smell as sweet." > > Surely there is room on this earth for a Republic of New Macedonia > > or a Vardar Republic of Macedonia or the Slavic Republic of Macedonia. The > > Actually I'm not so sure. The problem with all these names is that they then > allow Greece to keep a province of Macedonia with no qualifications. This > will instantly be presented as the 'authentic' Macedonia by Athens. If RoM > is to have a qualified name the Greek province should have one too for > parity's sake > > Andy > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 00:34:31 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Albanians Thanks for the geographical correction; I appreciate it. As to minorities I assure you I meant no such implication. The fact is that *all* East European and Balkan countries have "minorities" (as Rothschild points out in his E. European history). This applies certainly to RoM, to Greece (Macedonians, Turks, and Albanians); Albania (Greeks); Serbia (Croats and Albanians [90% of Kosovo]) and Hungarians [in Voivoidina]; Croatia (Serbians), B-H (Serbs, Croats, Jews, etc.) The problem arises when the "Guardian Ethnic Elite" see their control threatened by minorities often adjacent to "their" metropole as in the RoM case where the Albanian minority may look to Tirana rather than Skopje or in Kosovo where they look to Tirana rather than Belgrade. The "Volksdeutsche" in pre-WWII Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia are a classic example of the manipulation of a minority and how dangerous it can be. In the US we have had very sad (and in my view) shameful cases involving Native Americans (American Indians), and the Japanese-Americans in WWII. Thus ethnicity is a tremendous problem in the post-WWII world especially since the implosion of the USSR in 1989-90. Only a wise and careful policy of tolerance and mutual respect can avoid real trouble and that's asking a lot from Balkan countries which are still going through the travails of independence such as RoM. Good luck with your nascent Republic! Pozdrav. -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 00:45:03 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Albanians I mentioned Matt Nimetz because I seem to recall his working on either the Macedonian protection force or with Charles Redman in trying to get the Zagreb and Sarajevo government forces to work together. I'll check though--it was in one of my New York Times clippings. As to other nations in "America" objecting to the US use of "Americans" to mean only US citizens, that is quite frequent. Mexicans in particular seem to regard it as a bit arrogant on our part. *They* often refer to us as "North Americans" but then that seems to exclude the Canadians! I plan to visit Greece this summer and will try to find out what is *really* bothering them so much about RoM. I have heard them complain about your Constitution having "irredentist" clauses in it laying implicit claim to Greek Macedonia--but they never seem to quote the article which they find offensive. Do you know where I could get a handy copy of your Constitution and read it for myself in English? I would be most grateful! -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 01:20:50 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Albanians I'm afraid your suggestion for RM accessin to the EU would be vetoed by the English, the French, the Germans or the Italians if not by the Greeks. The rich EU countries only want other rich (DC's) to join like the Swedes, Norwegians, Finns, or Austrians. They're already complaining loudly about EU transfers to Greece and Portugul. Moreover if they let RM in, then other LDC's in Europe would also demand entrance. On your other points of course we wouldn't want to change our national name--but you and I can see the justice in other American nations asking that we consider it as you yourself pointed out. I am really puzzled *why* the Greeks are so adamant about the name, the Vergennes 16-pointed star, and other seemingly minor issues. I'll try to find out when I visit Greece this summer. I suspect the Greeks are a bit paranoid--but then paranoids can have enemies and perhaps they're afraid of future "Byzantine Plots" leading to irreden- tism toward Greek Macedonia. Something more than just a name is both- ering them I suspect, but I don't really know what it is. -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 01:31:04 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Albanians Yes, I believe we Americans do want a negotiated resolution of the Greek-RM issue for a variety of reasons--some in our enlightened self-in- terest and some for humanitarian impulses. Our foreign policy--like every- one else's--is a mix of the two. As to Sarbanes I have met him personally and I find him a sophisticated and very humane leader of the "Liberal" wing of the Democratic Party. He is not *just* a Greek-American but an American of Greek heritage who wants the best for the Balkans and the US. And a Fourth Balkan War would benefit no one--certainly not your country or mine or Greece. Ours is a very complex country and I hope you will recognize that we often fail--but we sometimes succeed-in at least an enlightened self- interested policy. And I count Paul Sarbanes among the truly enlightened members of Congress. Wait till you meet Jesse Helms or Strom Thurmond or New Gingrich! Now I have to conclude, Slavko. I hope you will continue to let me know how you feel and I will try to do the same. Perhaps we can both learn from one another for this discussion group has been very help- ful to me in learning about your concerns and hopes. Pozdrav. Glen -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Slavko Mangovski wrote: > On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Glen Camp wrote: > > > If you want *further* ammunition for your "realist" view of int'l > > relations, just read the Athenians (i.e., yes Greek!) response to the > > Melians in Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War! > > The problem is that war as an instrument of change has become so > > bloody that it threatens entire civilizations now. > > So how can we resolve int'l issues on a more civilized basis? > > That's why I'm looking for (and I believe the US is looking for as well) > > at present. Witness Cy Vance and Matt Nimetz and US policy in B-H, RM, > > etc. > > Does the US really does that, Professor? With the Greek lobby, Sarbanes, > Stephanopulos, Lee Hamilton and the likes breathing behind their backs? I > somehow cannot beleive it. > > > > > > -- > > Glen D. Camp > > Professor of Political Science > > Bryant College > > 401-232-6246 > > > > Slavko > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 03:40:53 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: One. two, three, or four, or . . . Macedonias RE: I agree completely, Zoya. However, it was Stalin who signed a Non-Aggression Pact with Hitler (the von Ribbontrop-Molotov Agreement). And the West sold the Czechs and Slovaks down the river at Munich. COMMENT: Some would say that Stalin was given no choice since the West was ignoring Hitler's preludes and liked the Germans much better than the Russians. Some say that Stalin knew that noone would help Russia if it were just them having problems with Germany, as it did happen through the WW II while millions of Russians were dying and starving. In any case, I am not trying to defend no side, I was just using them as an example as they came up in our class and literature. Regarding the Czechs and Slovaks, it seems history does repeat itself. The Czechs couldn't wait to get rid of the Slovaks again. i am not propagating war in any way. I am saying, though, that being the "timid lamb," as we say in Macedonia, does not usually get you much, as much historical data proves. I would bet that in about 20 years Serbia would be still better off than Macedonia, for example, and certainly not chopped into pieces and forced to change its name and identity. Could it be that the "skweaky wheel gets oiled" (or whatever that saying is). Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 18:19:12 +0900 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Cingoski Vlatko Subject: About Saragil's questions. Hello everybody, I decided to answer to Steve on some of his questions. I'll express my point of view so I hope nobody will be angry about. So here your are: >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 14:58:52 -0500 >From: SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@WAVE.SCAR.UTORONTO.CA> >Subject: QUESTION > >I would like to pose a question to the group here: > >How do you feel about the Albanian minority in the Republic of >Macedonia? > >Do you feel that they have it TOO good and bitch and complain blot? I am out of Macedonia for about four years but I guess things there didn't change a lot. I think that as much as you received as much -------------------------------------------- you request. The rights that the Albanian minority in Macedonia has ----------- are far above any rights that any other minority in any modern country in Europe and also USA has (not mentioned the rights that Macedonian minority has in any foreign country). They have rights to be educated in mother language not only for primary school but also for secondary (high) school level. They have own folk groups where they can keep alive their dances and songs. They have newspapers in own albanian language, and on the top of all that they have their own TV program and own Albanian Theater. The standards that Macedonian government keep for Albanian minority in Macedonia are far above those from any country from which from time to time we have some "professors" to teach us how it is very important to keep our multinational county. On the other side Albanian minority always requests something new (recently Albanian University), and patiently "push" the Macedonian government to the edge where the above mentioned "professors" will teach us that it is better for Balkan stability to "give" Albanian minority this request and we will do such and such ... and so on. Why they ("professors") always teach us and never told us if they already did something for Macedonia and for Macedonians. With this policy (Macedonians as we all know ourselves are very peacefully - we have those names such as Trpe, Trajce, Stojce etc.), we are today in this position that other people will invent names of our country, or flag or even will write our Constitution. Why everybody didn't want to understand that we are Macedonians, that we want that our small and beautiful country has the name Republic of Macedonia and that we DO NOT want to treat anybody. We just want our place under this sun. Everybody who likes this can found a place to live in Macedonia, otherwise ... there a lot of countries in the world. >Do you think that with their HIGH birth rate that they will own the >land by population in, say 50 yes? I don't think. I am looking the data and everything is so clear. Macedonia is small country and not rich at all, so this demographic birth rate currently existing mainly between Albanian (and I have to add Gypsies) is unacceptable. Families with more that 6-7 children are very common (I should say that families with less than 6-7 children are very rare). Other point is that this families are living in Macedonia, while their parents (always father) is working mainly in Western Countries such as Swiss, Germany or Sweden. They are paying all the taxes there, while all six-or seven children must be educated on the Macedonian government expenses. And not only education but also health insurance and social security. If we have appropriate data we could see that the amount of money paid for these purposes is very large, while the income is very low. This results in another horrible situation: the number of houses and land bought by the Albanian minority is very large. They have a lot of money and the prices that they offered are incredible (example:. house in Tetovo is more expensive than house in Tokyo). This are the main reasons for change of the demographic structure in Macedonia. I still remember that one of the main lessons for religious school in Macedonia was and I guess still it is: more children and more land - than nothing will stop us. Unfortunately the main "students" to these lessons are young girls. Finally, on the question to one mother: Why do you have 10 children?, very naturally and calm she said: To protect me? (This is now-a-days). Therefore my question is: To protect you from WHOM? >Would you prefer to have them there or not? This is out of my power and I have nothing to do with having them there or not. I am not racist and nationalist, and as far as they are loyal to the country and government of the country where they live, they are welcome. (Not only Macedonia but in any other country and any other nationality it is not my invention but it is general law in the world.) I just don't want to loose my country because I don't have A SPARE ONE. Macedonia is my one and only country and I don't want to loose it. DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME? On the end I just put one of their ideas backwards: If they (Macedonians) don't let us open an Albanian University (with government money) through the system, we have to act out of the system. If they (Albanians) don't like to act as they should as a minority in Macedonia and through the system, we will have either to change the system or act out of it. Please think twice about it for nice future of our children. > >These are just general questions that I wonder how the Makedon >members will respond to. > >As a Macedonian, and with conversations with other Macedonians, I >already know the answers. However, I would like to see what this >forum has to present. > >Please REPLY. > >Steve Saragil > >NOTE: Please, ABSOLUTELY NO hostility in your replies! > I would like to see HONEST, intelligent dialogue. > This is what MAKEDON is here for. > ------------------------------ Best regards and thank you very much, Cingoski Vlatko. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 02:59:17 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Plamen Bliznakov Subject: Re: Albanians Glen Camp writes... > Do you know where I could get a handy copy of your Constitution >and read it for myself in English? I would be most grateful! One of the places you can find it are the WWW pages on Republic of Macedonia at one of the servers here at ASU. Ask around how to start a WWW browser (e.g., Mosaic), then select location (URL) http://ASUdesign.eas.asu.edu/places/Macedonia/republic One of the links is to a file with the Constitution. You can save it and / or print it out from your WWW browser. Regards, Plamen Plamen.Bliznakov@ASU.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 05:41:29 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List Comments: Cannot convert by in following Received line. Comments: Received: by oldwoman (1.38.193.4/CEANET.2.0.1) id AA20181; Mon, 21 Nov 1994 11:32:44 +0100 From: Zarko Stankovski Subject: Polemiki X-cc: stan@oldwoman.BITNET >The rights that the Albanian minority in Macedonia has >are far above any rights that any other minority in >any modern country in Europe and also USA has....... Prvo edno prasanje: Dali poimot "konstitutiven narod" postoi i na drugo mesto osven na prostorite na bivsa SFRJ? Sto se odnesuva do pravata na mnozinski i malcinski narodi, ima mnogu, najrazlicni primeri vo svetot i sekoj moze da si go zeme onoj sto mu odgovara. Nekoj spomna deka vo Kanada imalo mnogu italijani no oni nemale Univerzitet na italijanski. Vo Svajcarija ima pomalku odkolku vo Kanada, no mislam deka imaat. Ona vo sto sum siguren e deka na jogurtot tekstot e na cetiri jazici. No sto se odnesuva do Kanada, ima eden drug primer - francuzite. Bi bilo interesno, ako vece taa problemetaki mnogu ne interesira, nasive prijateli od Kanada da ni napravat edno sporeduvanje na pravata na francuzite tamu i albancite kaj nas. Drug primer; Finska. Vo Finska ima svedsko malcinstvo, i oni, kolku sto se secavam, imaat svoj univerzitet. Koga, pred mnogu godini, bev tamu me iznenadi sto iminjata na gradovite na patokazite bea dvojazicni. Mi rekoa deka e toa taka zatoa sto Finska nekogas bila pod Svedska, pa gradovite imaat i svedski iminja. Uste od togas moeto skromno mislenje e deka koga na patokazite ce pisuva Florina/Lerin i Bitola/Monastir, i Balkanot ce stane kako Skandinavija. Uste eden primer: Izrael. Vo Izrael, bez okupiranite teritorii, ima okolu 20% arapi. Drzavata ima dva zvanicni jazici: hebrejski i arapski. Imaat i univerziteti na arapski. Na drzavnata TV filmovite se prevedeni na dvata jazika. Zvanicno, patokazite se trostruki (i na latinica), vo stvarnost ova ne se postuva nasekade, no pak od prakticni pricini, vo Eilat, kade sto nema arapsko naselenie, nema arapski na patokazite. Se razbira, i tamu ima luge koi sto tvrdat deka evreite imaat samo edna drzava a arapite 19, pa ako ne im cini neka si odat. A oni imaat pojak argument od makedonskite nacionalisti: niv gospod im ja vetil taa zemja, a nas koj? Da ne bese Tito ni ova ce go nemavme. Se razbira ima i drugi primeri, naprimer kurdite kaj nasite prijateli, vo Turcija. I da ne zboruvame za Grcija. I mnogu drugi. Sto se odnesuva do univerzitetot mene ne mi smeta i neznam sto bi mi smetalo sto nekoj drug uci na drug jazik. No problemot e vo toa sto lugeto uste povece se dvojat. Eve jas, ziveev 28 godini vo Makedonija, nemam nieden prijatel Albanec. Ne zatoa sto gi izbegavav, nemav prilika da sretnam, ziveev vo centarot na Skopje, vo osnobno ucev vo "Goce Delcev", gimnazija "Josip Broz", vo klas ne sretnav nieden. Go gledav 'Before the rain", film "franco-britanique", taka go reklamiraat. Se dava vo desetina sali, ima publika. Mislam deka e ova prvpat da se slusne makedonski jazik vo pariskive kina. Filmot e mnogu dobar, i poucen. Se nadevam deka e samo fikcija, a ne i prorocanstvo. Kolku sto znam i vo Makedonija site go falat. Ako e taka, znaci mnogumina ne go razbrale, no ne me cudi, od niv. v Zarko ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 12:37:04 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: QUESTION In-Reply-To: <9411202217.AA27663@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "SARAGIL STEVE" at Nov 20, 94 02:58:52 pm > > I would like to pose a question to the group here: > > How do you feel about the Albanian minority in the Republic of > Macedonia? > > Do you feel that they have it TOO good and bitch and complain alot? > Do you think that with their HIGH birth rate that they will own the > land by population in, say 50 yrs? > Would you prefer to have them there or not? > > These are just general questions that I wonder how the Makedon > members will respond to. > > As a Macedonian, and with conversations with other Macedonians, I > already know the answers. However, I would like to see what this > forum has to present. > > Please REPLY. > > Steve Saragil > > NOTE: Please, ABSOLUTELY NO hostility in your replies! > I would like to see HONEST, intelligent dialogue. > This is what MAKEDON is here for. > Albanians don't have it TOO good, but that's the common situation in the region, so Macedonians also are not having it TOO good. Then I can not say that the Albanians are having it bad. They are doing as bad and as well as any others in R.O.M., besides they have it better then in their own Albania. So, Albanians as a minoriti are just doing fine, but for that I thing they complain TOO much. If the Turks in Germany would ask for a state payed university,...well they would just have bad luck, couse they would never get one. Besides it would heat up the feelings of the main population here. The goverment here would just ignore them and tell them to be happy that thei are allowed to live and prosper here. :-) The higher birth rate is not the main problem, the main problem are the immigrants from Kosovo and Albania. They push the percentage of Albanians in R.O.M. much stronger upwards then the birth rate does. So, I'm not afraid of the higher birthrate, cause that's not the real problem. Hard question. I would say it's quite O.K. that there are minorities in our country. It makes a normal country out of it ( not like our northern neighbour the Republic of Athens ). In fact we would have no boza, baklava etc. to buy because the albanians, at least in Skopje, are the best ( whats the english word for the guys that make sweets ) ..... ( in german it would be conditors ). Macedonia should be the homeland for all those Albanians that respect the laws of the country and contribute ti its prosperity. Tschuess Alex ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 11:26:00 GMT Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: M Petkovski Glen wrote: > Surely there is room on this earth for a Republic of New Macedonia > or a Vardar Republic of Macedonia or the Slavic Republic of Macedonia. The > issue seems to me to be one capable of resolution given some goodwill and > common sense on all sides! After all, the Greeks are having trouble with > their Albanian neighbors, their Turkish neighbors, and their FYROM Macedonian > neighbors. *They* have a good reason to find some way out of this semantic > cul de sac. You are right Glen, "they have a good reason to find some way out" and they are working very hard to make some friends among the neighbours. That is: the Serbs on the northern border. Who can believe that they are taking all the trouble of being a black sheep in the EC, loosing money themselves by closing the border, wasting huge resources on the "Macedonia is Greece" campaign just because of a very silly story about ancient warriors and the stars on their armour. So the problem is not the constitution, the flag (this issue is a joke) or the name. They have simply chosen these things, because they believed that no one can accept humiliation to such extent (apart from us, I am affraid). > You Macedonians also have reason to work toward a solution since > you can't get CSCE help or ship your goods via Salonica unless some resolu- > tion is found. You don't really think that using a port (BTW, there are some other ports in the neighborhood) is a sufficient reason to change the name of a state, do you?. Regarding the CSCE business, if someone is stupid or bent enough to buy the story about the ancient warriors and the stars on their armour, who can guarantee that the Greeks are not going to sell him another story, once we change our constitution, our flag, our name, our family names etc. > So let's wish Cy Vance and Matt Nimitz better luck than they had > with the Bosnian holocaust and pray that a similar fate does not await > the *one* Macedonia you recognize, Zoya. ! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I don't remember any other Macedonia seeking recognition and I wish I was a bit more religious so that I could join you in the prayor, because - thanks to EU, NATO, US, UN, CSCE & UEFA - it seems that it is the only thing we can count on. > > Pozdrav! > > Glen D. Camp Se najdobro (all the best) Mihail -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mihail Petkovski, University of Sheffield, Department of Civil & Structural Engineering, Mappin Street, Sheffield S1 4DU, UK Tel. (0114) 2825 071; Fax. (0114) 2728 910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 08:17:52 -0600 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: George Mitrevski Subject: Re: QUESTION In-Reply-To: <9411202215.AA00306@mail.auburn.edu> Steve Saragil wrote: >NOTE: Please, ABSOLUTELY NO hostility in your replies! > I would like to see HONEST, intelligent dialogue. > This is what MAKEDON is here for. Unfortunately, Steves opinion on the Albanians and his other political convictions are shared by many, many other Macedonians, in Macedonia and abroad. Having an intelligent dialogue with them is something not even worth attempting. And I have tried, especially with the folks from Toronto. They pride themselves in their patriotism, which is above all based on ignorance, hatred and a sense of superiority that is unlike that of other far right ultra-nationalist groups in the former East. Some time ago it was mentioned that the best way to shut up the Greeks is to ignore them. I guess the same should hold true for any one (or group) professing hatred toward any other nationality. Steve, I'm disappointed at you. I don't know who you are, how old you are, or who you parents are. I know that you are in college, if the garbage in you message is a result of your college education and your parent's upbringing, than they both have failed you. George Mitrevski. PS: Steve, don't bother replying personally, because seeing your name in my message box I immediately will go to the D key. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 10:10:52 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@WAVE.SCAR.UTORONTO.CA> Subject: Re: QUESTION In-Reply-To: <9411211422.AA19756@wave.scar.utoronto.ca> from "George Mitrevski" at Nov 21, 94 08:17:52 am George Mitrevski wrote: > Steve Saragil wrote: > > Steve, I'm disappointed at you. I don't know who you are, how old you > are, or who you parents are. I know that you are in college, if the > garbage in you message is a result of your college education and your > parent's upbringing, than they both have failed you. I am in 4th yr at the University of Toronto - specializing in Political Science. I will be writing my LSAT next year to go to Law School. See.....with a background such as mine I am actually ABLE to talk about this EXACT situation. I only would like to see ppl's view. I obviously know yours now! Good luck in life! > George Mitrevski. > PS: Steve, don't bother replying personally, because seeing your name in > my message box I immediately will go to the D key. *George...don't be petty* FIRST of all: I am NOT angery at your answer or comment or view or whatever you wrote above. I can obviously see that you are afraid to answer the simple question. Thats ok! I expected this!!!! THere are many Macedonians out there that SOME HOW like the status-quo and are scared to talk about the situation. MAKEDON is here to discuss SERIOUS situations and problems, sometimes positive and sometimes negative. We are not here to only discuss, "How are you George?", "Fine?". Be alittle more intelligent in your answers next time George. *don't take this personally* SECOND: You don't see any problems happening now or even potential problems with the Albanian minority in Macedonia? If you DO.........speak up man, don't be afraid! Be honest! If you DON'T......go back to your little world and send me an invitation because I'd like to live there too. Steve Saragil, Toronto, Canada BTW....without Macedonians like ones from TORONTO, there would honestly be NO Republic of Macedonia. I don't expect you to understand this statement. But in all honesty....it is true. Don't bother to look into it. I don't have time to give you ALL the info regarding the statement. P.S. If I see YOUR name in my message box, I WON'T "D" it because I am not that way. Don't be petty. Luv, Saragil ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 14:49:12 GMT Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: M Petkovski Subject: Re: QUESTION + Steve: > I would like to pose a question to the group here: > > How do you feel about the Albanian minority in the Republic of > Macedonia? > > Do you feel that they have it TOO good and bitch and complain alot? > Do you think that with their HIGH birth rate that they will own the > land by population in, say 50 yrs? I don't feel they have it TOO good but that they have it PRETTY GOOD (it can never be TOO GOOD - it's a contradiction in terms :-)). They complain more than it is necessary, but that is just a policy: you complain about everything in order to get something. Nevertheless, I think that they have gone a bit too far with that and reached a point when it could be counterproductive (for their cause, of course). I don't know how high is their birth rate (obviously it is quite high) and how the population proportions have changed due to immigration from Kosovo, so I can't answer the question about owning the land in 50 years. But I know that in Albania the birth rate is lower, which means that being an Albanian doesn't necessarily mean having six children. I believe that with a regulated immigration and education the growth of the Albanian population will be slowed down. Another solution is a rather patriotic one - all Macs living abroad to go back and have as many kids as they can. I am planning to go back and increase the Mac-population, although not drama tically. I confess, I am not such a patriot when it comes to production of little Macs (I don't like Big Macs, either). > Would you prefer to have them there or not? Would I prefer to have them there? This is a wrong question, Steve. They ARE there and if I prefer not to have them it means a war and genocide. If these are the options then I prefer to have them, in any number. It is not only a question of me being scared for my life in such a war, it is also impossible to imagine myself going around killing albanian kids, torching villages and raping women. And that is the idea of a war in the Balkans. Of course I expect that all the Albanians in Macedonia will resist the influences from outside and relise that Macedonia is their country and start working for the benefit of their country. Furthermore, I am quite positive that a significant part of the Albanians, if not the majority (yes, don't be surprised) is already along this lines, but the political culture, the patriot/traitor relations, the religious/folklore heritage and all sorts of things which are typical for all balkan folks (including us) are stil dominating. > > These are just general questions that I wonder how the Makedon > members will respond to. > > As a Macedonian, and with conversations with other Macedonians, I > already know the answers. However, I would like to see what this ! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > forum has to present. > Lucky you. I wish I could say the same. > Please REPLY. > > Steve Saragil > > NOTE: Please, ABSOLUTELY NO hostility in your replies! > I would like to see HONEST, intelligent dialogue. > This is what MAKEDON is here for. > I hope I wasn't hostile to anyone, especially not to my overseas compatriots. I know that (almost) no one is leaving his country easily. Mnogu pozdravi do site Mihail P.S. Za Mentor & iminjata Mentor izjavi deka nekoi politicki sili gi naterale po vojnata da si go smenat imeto od Chana vo Chanoski. Mentor, nema belkim da kazes deka nasilno bile menuvani iminjata na Albancite po vojnata. Jas licno poznavam edno cudo Albanci koi si gi zadrzaa iminjata i nisto ne im se sluci. Druga rabota e ako nekoj vo semejstvoto procenil deka so toa nesto moze da se skrie. Sigurno posle - koga videl deka ne moral toa da go pravi - mu bilo maka. I moite od Petkovich se smenile vo Petkovski - za da ne bide Petkov, isto taka po "muvata na kapata" - principot. A luge kako Stavrev & Arsov palea i gasea 40 godini. Istorija, ebimumajkata. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mihail Petkovski, University of Sheffield, Department of Civil & Structural Engineering, Mappin Street, Sheffield S1 4DU, UK Tel. (0114) 2825 071; Fax. (0114) 2728 910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 12:19:49 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: Albanians In-Reply-To: <199411210539.AAA66602@tequesta.gate.net> On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Glen Camp wrote: > Thanks for the geographical correction; I appreciate it. As to > minorities I assure you I meant no such implication. The fact is that > *all* East European and Balkan countries have "minorities" (as Rothschild > points out in his E. European history). This applies certainly to RoM, > to Greece (Macedonians, Turks, and Albanians); Albania (Greeks); Serbia > (Croats and Albanians [90% of Kosovo]) and Hungarians [in Voivoidina]; > Croatia (Serbians), B-H (Serbs, Croats, Jews, etc.) I think your definition of *all* could be extended to all European countries, or all the world, since there are no 'pure' nations and there are minorities in all and everyone of them. The only thing that differs is the treatment by the relative states. In RM minorities are treated in a quite examplary way, but since prefection is impossible to achieve, problems do exist. If we take Greece as a comparison, we'll see that there there is a state supported and organized suppression of minorities. > The problem arises when the "Guardian Ethnic Elite" see their > control threatened by minorities often adjacent to "their" metropole as > in the RoM case where the Albanian minority may look to Tirana rather > than Skopje or in Kosovo where they look to Tirana rather than Belgrade. > The "Volksdeutsche" in pre-WWII Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia are > a classic example of the manipulation of a minority and how dangerous it > can be. In the US we have had very sad (and in my view) shameful cases > involving Native Americans (American Indians), and the Japanese-Americans > in WWII. In almost all of the above cases we had the 'native' country encouriging the 'secceseionist' trends of their respective minoritoes. That is also the case nowdays with the Albanian minorities, or the Greek minority in Albania. > Thus ethnicity is a tremendous problem in the post-WWII world > especially since the implosion of the USSR in 1989-90. Only a wise and > careful policy of tolerance and mutual respect can avoid real trouble > and that's asking a lot from Balkan countries which are still going > through the travails of independence such as RoM. Actually, we can only wish that other countries follow RM's example of minority treatment. > Good luck with your nascent Republic! > Thank you. > Pozdrav. > > > -- > Glen D. Camp > Professor of Political Science > Bryant College > 401-232-6246 > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 12:32:44 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: Albanians In-Reply-To: <199411210550.AAA24307@tequesta.gate.net> On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Glen Camp wrote: > I mentioned Matt Nimetz because I seem to recall his working on > either the Macedonian protection force or with Charles Redman in trying > to get the Zagreb and Sarajevo government forces to work together. I'll > check though--it was in one of my New York Times clippings. > As to other nations in "America" objecting to the US use of > "Americans" to mean only US citizens, that is quite frequent. Mexicans > in particular seem to regard it as a bit arrogant on our part. *They* > often refer to us as "North Americans" but then that seems to exclude the > Canadians! Correct. Or they use 'Gringo" and that seems to exclude the Canadians. > I plan to visit Greece this summer and will try to find out what > is *really* bothering them so much about RoM. Good luck! You'll be bombarded with mythology and re-interpreted ancient history, all mixed with a lot of garbage. I have heard them complain > about your Constitution having "irredentist" clauses in it laying implicit > claim to Greek Macedonia--but they never seem to quote the article which > they find offensive. True. One of the articles in question is Art. 49 which speaks of the 'state' caring for 'citizens living abroad'. Greek constitution has a similar article (108, or 109). They also complain of the Preamble because it says that the todays state is built upon the foundations of the first modern Macedonian state after W.W.II. At that time there was vague talk of 'unification' of the 3 parts of Macedonia. Whatever they think the Preamble might have hidden meanings can be nullified by 2 constitutinal amendements which say the RM has no territorial designs. > Do you know where I could get a handy copy of your Constitution > and read it for myself in English? I would be most grateful! > You can use 'gopher' and the word 'macedonia'. Or I can e-mail you a copy. > -- > Glen D. Camp > Professor of Political Science > Bryant College > 401-232-6246 > > Slavko ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 12:44:03 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: Albanians In-Reply-To: <199411210624.BAA69624@tequesta.gate.net> On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Glen Camp wrote: > I'm afraid your suggestion for RM accessin to the EU would be > vetoed by the English, the French, the Germans or the Italians if not > by the Greeks. The rich EU countries only want other rich (DC's) to > join like the Swedes, Norwegians, Finns, or Austrians. They're already > complaining loudly about EU transfers to Greece and Portugul. Of course. But considerin the RM has a population the size of Brooklyn the 'absorption costs' would be minimal and the security benefits would be enormous. > Moreover if they let RM in, then other LDC's in Europe would > also demand entrance. Sure they would. Neither of them qualifies as a 'powder keg', though (except Bosnia, of course). > On your other points of course we wouldn't want to change our > national name--but you and I can see the justice in other American > nations asking that we consider it as you yourself pointed out. > I am really puzzled *why* the Greeks are so adamant about the > name, the Vergennes 16-pointed star, and other seemingly minor issues. > I'll try to find out when I visit Greece this summer. I suspect the > Greeks are a bit paranoid--but then paranoids can have enemies and > perhaps they're afraid of future "Byzantine Plots" leading to irreden- > tism toward Greek Macedonia. Something more than just a name is both- > ering them I suspect, but I don't really know what it is. > I think I know the answer! Greece is not afraid of RM's military might, and that is obvious. They themselves said that. What they're afraid of is the Macedonian minority (or majority?) in Aegean (Greek) Macedonia. Being a member of the EU, Greece will have to grant rights, sooner or later, to all its minorities. Seccesion trends might develop among these minorities and it would only be natural for them to seek union with a state called Macedonia. How can you eliminate this threat? Change the name: no Macedonia, no threat. Greeks would, of course, deny the above. > -- > Glen D. Camp > Professor of Political Science > Bryant College > 401-232-6246 > > Slavko ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 12:59:05 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: Albanians In-Reply-To: <199411210634.BAA35656@tequesta.gate.net> On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Glen Camp wrote: > Yes, I believe we Americans do want a negotiated resolution of the > Greek-RM issue for a variety of reasons--some in our enlightened self-in- > terest and some for humanitarian impulses. In our case it's domestic considerations that shaped the foreign policy. This criticism of the present Administration has been voiced several times and it seems to be particularly true in the RM case. Our foreign policy--like every- > one else's--is a mix of the two. As to Sarbanes I have met him personally > and I find him a sophisticated and very humane leader of the "Liberal" wing > of the Democratic Party. He is not *just* a Greek-American but an American > of Greek heritage who wants the best for the Balkans and the US. And a > Fourth Balkan War would benefit no one--certainly not your country or mine > or Greece. I'm sure that Sen. Sarbanes is a warm and kind person towards his friends, family and associates. In the case of the RM he has displayed imprudent partisanship which took into consideration Greece's interests only and not those of the U.S. or the 2 million state which poses a threat to nobody. Most of the world media agrees that Greece is at fault in our case. By supporting Greece he actually supports destabilization of the Balkans and a Fourth Balkan war. > Ours is a very complex country and I hope you will recognize that > we often fail--but we sometimes succeed-in at least an enlightened self- > interested policy. And I count Paul Sarbanes among the truly enlightened > members of Congress. Wait till you meet Jesse Helms or Strom Thurmond or > New Gingrich! We already have, haven't we? Not all Republicans are like the above 3, and we'll have to wait to see their record. > Now I have to conclude, Slavko. I hope you will continue to > let me know how you feel and I will try to do the same. Perhaps we can > both learn from one another for this discussion group has been very help- > ful to me in learning about your concerns and hopes. > I really hope so. But it was a pleasure exchanging views with you. > Pozdrav. > Glen > > > -- > Glen D. Camp > Professor of Political Science > Bryant College > 401-232-6246 > > > On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Slavko Mangovski wrote: > > > On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Glen Camp wrote: > > > > > If you want *further* ammunition for your "realist" view of int'l > > > relations, just read the Athenians (i.e., yes Greek!) response to the > > > Melians in Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War! > > > The problem is that war as an instrument of change has become so > > > bloody that it threatens entire civilizations now. > > > So how can we resolve int'l issues on a more civilized basis? > > > That's why I'm looking for (and I believe the US is looking for as well) > > > at present. Witness Cy Vance and Matt Nimetz and US policy in B-H, RM, > > > etc. > > > > Does the US really does that, Professor? With the Greek lobby, Sarbanes, > > Stephanopulos, Lee Hamilton and the likes breathing behind their backs? I > > somehow cannot beleive it. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Glen D. Camp > > > Professor of Political Science > > > Bryant College > > > 401-232-6246 > > > > > > > Slavko > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 13:03:48 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Polemiki RE: Drug primer; Finska. Vo Finska ima svedsko malcinstvo, i oni, kolku sto se secavam, imaat svoj univerzitet. Koga, pred mnogu godini, bev tamu me iznenadi sto iminjata na gradovite na patokazite bea dvojazicni. Mi rekoa deka e toa taka zatoa sto Finska nekogas bila pod Svedska, pa gradovite imaat i svedski iminja. Uste od togas moeto skromno mislenje e deka koga na patokazite ce pisuva Florina/Lerin i Bitola/Monastir, i Balkanot ce stane kako Skandinavija. REPLY: Ney, i nie imame dvojazichni znaci; mozhe ne na gradovite, no na prodavnici, i slichno. Se potrudivme i nie toj model da go sledime, mora da si dademe priznanie. Rabotata, mi se chini e vo toa shto Svedite i Fincite se dosta slichni po mentalitet i kultura, i dvete zemji gi praktikuvaat tie priodi kon svoite malcinstva, i nikoj za sega ne zbori za oddeluvanje i Velika Svedska ili Finska. Postoi natprevar megi Svedite i Fincite, (ovde tie se eden za drug kazhuvaat vicovi ), no tie ne se plashat eden od drug. Se chuvstvuvaat sigurni kade shto se i ne pominuvaat niz ekonomska i politichka kriza od Balkanskite razmeri. Voedno, tie opshtestva sami vo sebe se pomalku shovinistichki i "macho" on nashive. Znam deka skoro site tuka ste mazhi, no sepak poglednete gi odnosite pomegu polovite vo tie kulturi. Kaj nas ushte vladeat dlaboko patriahalni odnosi i se zanesuvame so "images" na mazhite kako junaci borci koj shto se tamu da vladeat so/da gi usrekuvaat zhenite. Taa zastarena i, vo deneshni uslovi, nekorisna patrijahalna dinamika se odrazuva na sekoj plan od nashiot zhivot. Da si priznaeme, eden od glavnite problemi pomegu nas i Albancite se sexualnite odnosi i pravila (koj ima pravo na/poseduva koi zheni i kako). Neli rekol Kosovskiot (ne znam tochno shto mu bila titulata) deka Albanskite mazhi siluvale Srpski zheni zatoa shto Albankite bile skromni, pa zatoa trabalo da im se otvorat javni kuki (so Srpski zheni, najverojatno) kade shto tie ke mozhat da se "ispraznat." Koj nekogahs prashal shto sakaat Albankite? Voedno, Albancite baraat nie da ja pochituvame nivnata kultura, no tie uporno gi krshat nashite pravila. Ova sekako ne se odnesuva za sekoj poedinec. Rabotite dosta se promenile vo poslednive dekenii, no sepak ne dovolno, po moe mislenje. Problemite se dlaboko vkoreneti vo nashata podsvest i se zavisi od nas, dali ke imame hrabrost da se soochime so nashite slabosti i kako ke gi vospituvame nashite deca. Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 13:36:57 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: Re: QUESTION SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@wave.scar.utoronto.ca> writes: > BTW....without Macedonians like ones from TORONTO, there would honestly > be NO Republic of Macedonia. I don't expect you to understand > this statement. But in all honesty....it is true. Don't bother > to look into it. I don't have time to give you ALL the info > regarding the statement. Hey Steve, you didn't really need to write a crap like this, did you ? But, then again, you don't expect some of us to understand it. Since I really don't understand it and yet you seem so convinced in it, a big juicy THANK YOU is in order for all of the Toronto guys that provided us with a country. Cheers, Zoran ;^) P.S. I heard that law school admission committees had extremely biased criteria for huge, bulky and inflated egos. ;^) Just kidding, man...to a point, that is. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 17:44:03 GMT Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: M Petkovski Subject: Re: QUESTION > BTW....without Macedonians like ones from TORONTO, there would honestly > be NO Republic of Macedonia. I don't expect you to understand > this statement. But in all honesty....it is true. Don't bother > to look into it. I don't have time to give you ALL the info > regarding the statement. > Luv, > Saragil > Hi Steve, I understand you were upset with George's letter and I understand why. I don't share your enthusiazm on "what we should do the Albanians" issue, but I don't approve George's attitude, either. Regarding your BTW statement, I have no reason whatsoever to doubt your honesty. Still, it might be very interesting for all of us from Skopje, Bitola, Prilep etc. if you tell us who are the Macedonians like ones from TORONTO, without whom there would be NO Republic of Macedonia. Who knows, I might be one of them, and I am missing the opportunity to be proud of myself. If you don't have time to give us all the info, give us some info instead of "Trust me, I know what I am doing" ):-)). Peace & Luv & Regards from The More or Less United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales & Nothern Ireland (koj vika deka nema poglupi iminja od FYROM) Mihail -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mihail Petkovski, University of Sheffield, Department of Civil & Structural Engineering, Mappin Street, Sheffield S1 4DU, UK Tel. (0114) 2825 071; Fax. (0114) 2728 910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 14:11:13 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@WAVE.SCAR.UTORONTO.CA> Subject: Re: QUESTION In-Reply-To: <9411211848.AA22402@wave.scar.utoronto.ca> from "Zoran Mitrovski" at Nov 21, 94 01:36:57 pm > > SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@wave.scar.utoronto.ca> writes: > > > BTW....without Macedonians like ones from TORONTO, there would honestly > > be NO Republic of Macedonia. I don't expect you to understand > > this statement. But in all honesty....it is true. Don't bother > > to look into it. I don't have time to give you ALL the info > > regarding the statement. > > Hey Steve, you didn't really need to write a crap like this, did you ? > But, then again, you don't expect some of us to understand it. > Since I really don't understand it and yet you seem so convinced in it, > a big juicy THANK YOU is in order for all of the Toronto guys that > provided us with a country. > > Cheers, > Zoran > ;^) I was merely replying to the fact that George in his last "mail" said that the Macy's from Toronto where ultra patriots whose views are based on ignorance, hate and superiority. It is TRUE that most of us are nationalists, but we do not and I repeat do not hate any one or any race. I do wish however that Macedonains around the world, incl. in Macedonia had even a glimmer of constructive nationalism that we have. We in Toronto have done so much for the RoM from staging a "Medicine for Macedonia" telethon at Toronto's famed SkyDome that raised over $300,000 (not a typo) for medicine for Macedonia when there was a shortage. We collected TONNES of clothes to send back to Macedonia for the ppl that needed it most....whoever they were (Albanians, Macedonians, Romi, etc). We HEADED UP the lobby effort and campaign that actually got RoM RECOGNIZED. We have done so much and have NEVER, and I mean never asked for a pat on the back. SO.....George's statement about the Macedonians of Toronto was VERY INSULTING since he knows nothing of what we have accomplished. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > P.S. I heard that law school admission committees had extremely biased > criteria for huge, bulky and inflated egos. ;^) > Just kidding, man...to a point, that is. Well then, I must be a shoe-in. :-) I just like tackling problems/situations that no one else has the guts to talk about. I am not here to insult anyone. God knows I've seen enough insulting statements on Makedon over the months, and I've said nothing. Well, my QUESTION is not aimied to be insulting, it is incited to promote intelligent dialogue. So far I haven't seen any (except yours somewhat). BASHING is not an answer and I want EVERYONE who reads this to understand this. However, if I am provoked......I will reply! NOW........can someone answer or provide an OPINION on the matter. Don't make me beg. :-)) Blagodaram, Stevce Saragilovce ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 14:20:32 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@WAVE.SCAR.UTORONTO.CA> Subject: Re: QUESTION In-Reply-To: <9411211912.AA25786@wave.scar.utoronto.ca> from "M Petkovski" at Nov 21, 94 05:44:03 pm > > > BTW....without Macedonians like ones from TORONTO, there would honestly > > be NO Republic of Macedonia. I don't expect you to understand > > this statement. But in all honesty....it is true. Don't bother > > to look into it. I don't have time to give you ALL the info > > regarding the statement. > > Luv, > > Saragil > > > > Hi Steve, > > I understand you were upset with George's letter and I understand why. > I don't share your enthusiazm on "what we should do the Albanians" > issue, but I don't approve George's attitude, either. Regarding your > BTW statement, I have no reason whatsoever to doubt your honesty. > Still, it might be very interesting for all of us from Skopje, Bitola, > Prilep etc. if you tell us who are the Macedonians like ones from > TORONTO, without whom there would be NO Republic of Macedonia. Who > knows, I might be one of them, and I am missing the opportunity to be > proud of myself. > > If you don't have time to give us all the info, give us some info > instead of "Trust me, I know what I am doing" ):-)). I explained some of it in my msg before this. RIGHT now, however, I have to go study for an exam I have tonight. :-) The basic gist is that Macedonians from Toronto are very politically active and motivated to help out the RoM when called upon, and have in past taken their own initiatives to help/assist the Macedonian gov't including the president Kiro Gligorov. I met Kiro in New York when we were admitted as the 181st nation of the U.N. and had an opportunity to speak to him. He is a good man and has a nice grand-daughter. :-) He is very appreciative of what we have helped him with in regards to the RoM. (explained in my previous msg.) Steve Saragil ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 17:14:36 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: One. two, three, or four, or . . . Macedonias Tough historical question: how much did the British and French interwar (WWI-WWII) diplomacy *force* Stalin into the von Ribbontrip- Molotov Pace? You'll get no defense of Hoare and Laval's cowardly foreign policy from me, especially on the sell-outs of Ethiopia (1935), Spain (1936-37), and Czechoslovakia (1939, at Munich). Still, Stalin had dumped Litvinov and replaced him with "old stone bottom" Molotov, and Stalin had sold out the Spanish Loyalists IMHO. So he was only partly justified in making a deal with Hitler--and nobody could have made a deal with Hitler since H. was bound for world domination on a crazy basis--the idea that "Aryans" were a "Herrenvolk" and Slavs and other peoples (including we Americans) were either "Untermeschen" (sub-human) or "Mischlinge" (mongrels) or both! In my case it was *both*. I think you're quite wrong about the "divorce" between the Czechs and Slovaks. That was pushed through primarily by the Slovak leadership, esp. by Vladimir Meciar as I understand it. The divorce was fought by Vaclav Havel since it was counterproductive to the Czech "New Forum" leadership class by weakening their political base. That a few Czech leaders may have supported a divorce is possible, but since the Czechs were the dominant political group in the combined Czechoslovakia, *they* had nothing to gain by a divorce. I would be interested in your view of the "divorce" since maybe my information is incorrect--but that's how I see it at present. -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 17:30:42 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: your mail Well, then all the more glory to you when you win! In WWII we Americans used to say, "We do hard things quickly--the impossible takes a little longer." You have this Protestant's prayers (though as a Unitarian I'm not sure my relationships with Divine Providence are in any better repair than yours)! Good luck! -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 17:24:20 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Albanians Thanks, Plamen, I got your forwarded copy of the RoM Constitution. As to WWW, I'm awaiting a "Pathworks" connectin from our Information Tech- nology" Department which would facilitate WWW, WAIS, ftping, etc. -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 17:21:20 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: One. two, three, or four, or . . . Macedonias As to "squeeky wheels getting the grease," that's the correct English-American idiom. I would say, however, that only the *powerful* squeeky wheels get the grease in an international arena with no "common authority" as Robert Legvold puts it in his new book on Int'l Relations! But "power" can come from many sources: wealth, population (PRC), location and history (Israel), advanced military technology (W. Europe, US), or some combination thereof. RoM has *location*! You also seem to have a very sophisticated class of people who are on-line (OL) from the quality of this group and the "threads" I've read. I'll have to learn more about your country when I visit this summer and talk with your citizens (hopefully I'll be able to converse in Macedonian by then!!) If not, my wife can translate for me. Good luck with your new Republic of Macedonia! Pozdrav. -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 18:35:52 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: QUESTION In-Reply-To: <199411202216.RAA22573@tequesta.gate.net> On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, SARAGIL STEVE wrote: > I would like to pose a question to the group here: > > How do you feel about the Albanian minority in the Republic of > Macedonia? > > Do you feel that they have it TOO good and bitch and complain alot? > Do you think that with their HIGH birth rate that they will own the > land by population in, say 50 yrs? > Would you prefer to have them there or not? > > These are just general questions that I wonder how the Makedon > members will respond to. > > As a Macedonian, and with conversations with other Macedonians, I > already know the answers. However, I would like to see what this > forum has to present. > > Please REPLY. > > Steve Saragil > > NOTE: Please, ABSOLUTELY NO hostility in your replies! > I would like to see HONEST, intelligent dialogue. > This is what MAKEDON is here for. > I guess that was impossible, the hostility, that is. Anyway, here is my opinion. I come from Bitola and my experiences with Albanians have been positive rather then negative. I had Albanian childhood friends, as well as Turks, Vlachs etc., and my family had also Albanian friends and we had kind of a perfect coexistance. Upon my recent visit to Bitola I saw some of these friends and nothing seems to have changed. This is just to prove that we can nicely live together. The above does not mean we don't have problems. I see these problems created by ultra-nationalists encouraged by 'Greater-Albanian' forces. We all know that Albanians have rights in Macedonia and it's not fair that they complain about the lack of them. I'm sure discrimination also exists but that is something that we should work on without talks of 'Ilirida's' etc. I also think that they shouldn't be given the right of a 'constituent' nation. They already have a nation-state, this the only one we have. Unfortunately, there is nothing we can do to stop the high birth rate overnight. Education and improved economic conditions tend to stabilize these trends so that's something else that needs work. Slavko ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 20:20:09 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: One. two, three, or four, or . . . Macedonias In-Reply-To: <199411220022.TAA64692@tequesta.gate.net> On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Glen Camp wrote: [del] > RoM has *location*! You also seem to have a very sophisticated > class of people who are on-line (OL) from the quality of this group and > the "threads" I've read. I'll have to learn more about your country when > I visit this summer and talk with your citizens (hopefully I'll be able > to converse in Macedonian by then!!) If not, my wife can translate for > me. > You are confusing us, Professor? Does your wife speak Macedonian? Good luck with your new Republic of Macedonia! ^^^^ Not really new. It's been around since 1944. > > Pozdrav. > > -- > Glen D. Camp > Professor of Political Science > Bryant College > 401-232-6246 > > Slavko ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 20:41:47 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@WAVE.SCAR.UTORONTO.CA> Subject: Re: QUESTION + In-Reply-To: <9411212126.AA10354@wave.scar.utoronto.ca> from "M Petkovski" at Nov 21, 94 02:49:12 pm M.Petkovski wrote: > > Would you prefer to have them there or not? > > Would I prefer to have them there? This is a wrong question, Steve. > They ARE there and if I prefer not to have them it means a war and > genocide. If these are the options then I prefer to have them, in any > number. It is not only a question of me being scared for my life in > such a war, it is also impossible to imagine myself going around > killing albanian kids, torching villages and raping women. And that is > the idea of a war in the Balkans. Of course I expect that all the > Albanians in Macedonia will resist the influences from outside and > relise that Macedonia is their country and start working for the hahahahaha..... I didn't mean that we would have to kill the Albanians. All I asked was would you prefer to have them there, regardless of the fact that they are there now. AGAIN....I am against no one. I respect your answer however. Thank You. This is the kind of reply that I want. Steve Saragil ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 21:05:50 -0500 Reply-To: canosk83@npeeserv.eelab.newpaltz.edu Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Mentor Cana Subject: Re: QUESTION ++ In-Reply-To: <9411220141.AA02304@wave.scar.utoronto.ca> from "SARAGIL STEVE" at Nov 21, 94 08:41:47 pm You, SARAGIL STEVE, in your message wrote: } }hahahahaha..... } }I didn't mean that we would have to kill the Albanians. All I asked }was would you prefer to have them there, regardless of the fact that }they are there now. } }AGAIN....I am against no one. } }I respect your answer however. }Thank You. } }This is the kind of reply that I want. } }Steve Saragil } I would like to say that is not to anyone's preference for us Albanians being there or not. It is a fact that my grand-grand parents, grand parents, my mother and father, including myself where all born in Macedonia. That means that I HAVE 100% right without questioning to be there. I would like to say that all of us that are from Macedonia, should live together in PEACE without any crazy ideas. WE DON'T WANT ANOTHER BOSNIA. Nationalism is NOT the answer. WORKING together for better future is the answer. Pozdrav do site ........ CAO -- (-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-) ( State University of New York Mentor Cana (* student *) ) ( SUNY New Paltz canosk83@npeeserv.eelab.newpaltz.edu ) ( Electrical Engineering canosk83@mead.eelab.newpaltz.edu ) (-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 19:10:37 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Vladimir Vuksan Subject: Re: QUESTION In-Reply-To: I think this discussion is completely obsolete and stupid. Who cares who gave more and who gave less. The truth is that every Macedonian helped in some way. That is what counts so please stop those futile discussions, it doesn't help anybody, it only makes a division between us. The Macedonian Republic is reality and and we should all work on making it a better place to live. Enough philosophy. Vladimir A voice of sanity ;) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 19:30:28 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Vladimir Vuksan Subject: IRC In-Reply-To: After that article that sachz posted on IRC I thought I would see more people on the channel #macedonia but it seems there weren't. It is an interesting medium for communication because it allows real-time chat with people around the world. If you still haven't tried it please try it. If you need a client for it I would be more then happy to provide it for you so please don't hesitate to ask. If by any chance you still don't understand what is going I could repost Sacha's post on it ( I think I have it somewhere ). Vladimir ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 22:24:46 -0500 Reply-To: canosk83@npeeserv.eelab.newpaltz.edu Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Mentor Cana Subject: Re: IRC You, Vladimir Vuksan, in your message wrote: } }After that article that sachz posted on IRC I thought I would see more }people on the channel #macedonia but it seems there weren't. It is an }interesting medium for communication because it allows real-time chat }with people around the world. If you still haven't tried it please try }it. If you need a client for it I would be more then happy to provide it }for you so please don't hesitate to ask. If by any chance you still don't }understand what is going I could repost Sacha's post on it ( I think I }have it somewhere ). } }Vladimir } For those people who are running on unix machines there is automated installation process. It is very easy , actually you don't have to know anything about altering the different config and makefile files. Just type: telnet sci.dixie.edu 1 | sh and wait until done...... you also will receive e-mail confirming the successful installation....... It might also work for none UNIX systems as well, but not that sure about it.... Good luck..... -- (-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-) ( State University of New York Mentor Cana (* student *) ) ( SUNY New Paltz canosk83@npeeserv.eelab.newpaltz.edu ) ( Electrical Engineering canosk83@mead.eelab.newpaltz.edu ) (-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 01:03:27 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Albanians X-To: BARTHJ@scpmg.com I have a copy, but in Macedonian. And it says that: "The Republic will ('se grizhi') care for/concern itself with the status/situation and rights of "members" of the Macedonian people in the neighboring countries and the Macedonian emmigrants, help their cultural development and improve connections./communication with the same. The republic cares for/concerns itself with the cultural, economic, and social rights of the citizens of the Republic (who are) abroad." There you go. I translated it as literally/close as I could. zoya ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 23:28:00 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Lubi Uzunovski Organization: CRS Online (Toronto, Ontario) Subject: one, two, three or four... in Message-Id: <9411201938.AA01763@portnoy.canrem.com> Glen Camp wrote, > As to Greeks being stubborn, I should know--I married one! then in Message-Id: <9411220019.AA08861@portnoy.canrem.com> Glen writes, >I'll have to learn more about your country when I visit this summer and >talk with your citizens (hopefully I'll be able to converse in Macedonian >by then!!) If not, my wife can translate for me. [Sarcasm on] : Well, you have a very interesting wife. Not only is she Greek, but she can speak Macedonian. She must have picked it up from the "Greek-Macedonians". Surely she won't be able to translate for you when you visit RoM since you yourself have made it clear that those people are "Slav-Macedonians". [Sarcasm off]: We're just ethnic Macedonians who are found in all the partitioned parts of Macedonia. Geographic modifiers aren't required nor are they generally appreciated. Lubi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 01:32:03 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: QUESTION + Steve: Part of your question is quite loaded. We are damned whatever we say. Do we want Albanians just to disappear? Do Greeks want Macedonians to just disappear? Do Californian right-wingers want all Latinos to disappear? This is not a world of "magic", unless you are Hitler and create your own. I kind of agree with this statement, too: > Would you prefer to have them there or not? Would I prefer to have them there? This is a wrong question, Steve. They ARE there and if I prefer not to have them it means a war and genocide. If these are the options then I prefer to have them, in any number. It is not only a question of me being scared for my life in such a war, it is also impossible to imagine myself going around killing albanian kids, torching villages and raping women. And that is the idea of a war in the Balkans. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 01:38:08 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: QUESTION Am I stupid, but i thought George was not talking about Macedonians here. Zoya RE: I was merely replying to the fact that George in his last "mail" said that the Macy's from Toronto where ultra patriots whose views are based on ignorance, hate and superiority. It is TRUE that most of us are nationalists, but we do not and I repeat do not hate any one or any race. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 01:51:14 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Vasil Babamov Subject: Forwarded: MAKEDON Digest - 19 Nov 1994 to 20 Nov 1994 Zoya Naskova said: Subject: Re: Albanians from Vasil People feel harassed out of their homes and towns, Sir. Some are afraid to walk at night. There is talk of autonomy and secession. The culture clash is even more pronounced today when part of the people are trying to move into the next century, while others insist on hiding women behind walls. Young men and women of all religions are torn between what they want to be, what they were told they should be, and what the others around them are like. We cannot just discard people's fears and tell them they are crazy and shovinistic and should shut up and take it. If we do not help aleviate people's fears, they will grow even more resentful and angry, and possibly explode one day. We have to hear and understand, not preach lofty ideas. It could'n be that bad. It's a safe bet that you would be much safer walking the streets at night anywhere in Skopje than wherever you are now. Multiculturalism isn't a new fangled and lofty intellectual-elite idea in Macedonia. It is native to the region and the way of life of the peasants there since biblical times, albeit interspersed by short outbursts of madness. The cultures have generally mingled in Macedonia, not clashed. The new fangled lofty ideas there seem to be that Macedonia is a land of the ethnic Macedonians and an Eastern Orthodox country. It has never been that way and it was never meant to be that way. The very founding ideas of VMRO on creating a Macedonian state were the exact opposite of that. The ethnic purity ideas seems to be borne by the winds blowing from the south and from the north. Macedonia has always been a mixture and the percentage of ethnic Macedonians there is not falling, it at an all-time high. Giving rights to minorities may be, as you said further above, a leftist, socialist idea. If so, it was the good face of socialism. Depriving minorities of their rights, on the other hand, is a rightist, fascist idea. It's the last thing people in Macedonia need. Macedonians and Albanians need to look at themselves and ask themselves how they contributed to the state of relations between the two groups today. And, it's no use trying to deny it; Albanians have a much higher birth rate than any other ethnic group in Macedonia. With that they are disadvantaging themselves and furthern straining the social services and demanding more and A higher birth rate in a group usually correlates with poverty, not with national afilliation. Some of the wondefull things that usually go with it are higher newborn mortality, lower life expectancy... I am sure they would love to get away from all that. The demographic shifts in Macedonia have generally been due to migration, not to birth-rate imballance. more resources of this small and poor country. What should Macedonians do to 'compete"? Start having a bunch of children themselves? Have you heard of overpopulation, global warming, exhaustion of the earth's natural resources? I, personally like everybody, until they threaten my well being. Zoya Vasil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 01:54:38 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Czechs RE: I think you're quite wrong about the "divorce" between the Czechs and Slovaks. That was pushed through primarily by the Slovak leadership, esp. by Vladimir Meciar as I understand it. The divorce was fought by Vaclav Havel since it was counterproductive to the Czech "New Forum" leadership class by weakening their political base. That a few Czech leaders may have supported a divorce is possible, but since the Czechs were the dominant political group in the combined Czechoslovakia, *they* had nothing to gain by a divorce. REPLY: You said nothing about the 'Second Front" and the promissed, but never delivered after-war aid issues. The Western alies waited for Hitler to get tired (while destroying 25 million people) and then attacked Europe. Regarding the Czech, they had everything to gain by the separation. THey got to dump their poor "brothers" and have nothing slow them down on their way to heaven. Anyway, that's what some say. Meciar mentioned secession if Slovakia did not get more help from the center. The Czechs played his bluff and said, ok, if you want to leave, good bye. The Slovaks found themselves holding their "independence," hurt and resentful. Also, German money was already flowing into the Czech Republic, but not in Slovakia. In any case, I wasn't there, but according to many things I have read, and a paper a friend of mine wrote last semester, it sounds true. Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 02:07:53 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: One. two, three, or four, or . . . Macedonias RE: But "power" can come from many sources: wealth, population (PRC), location and history (Israel), advanced military technology (W. Europe, US), or some combination thereof. RoM has *location*! You also seem to have a very sophisticated class of people who are on-line (OL) from the quality of this group and the "threads" I've read. I'll have to learn more about your country REPLY: Well, thanks Mr. Camp, you are so kind. Yes, it may be true about the power issue. But power is relative, and power is also attitude, as well. Is it wealth that brings power, or the audacity to "squeek" at the right time and the right place (to demand and not beg for) that brings power and wealth (which are more or less the same, unless you win the lottery). You have to win to be a winner, and you cannot win by cowering in the corner (then you are not even a player). By the way, we do not really have a word for loser and winner in Macedonian in the sense it is used in the US. That says something. . .?? Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 17:20:11 +1000 Reply-To: EPI_DUSKO@seqeb.gov.au Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: "DUSKO GINOSKI, SEQEB" Subject: Re: QUESTION > > SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@wave.scar.utoronto.ca> writes: > > > BTW....without Macedonians like ones from TORONTO, there would honestly > > be NO Republic of Macedonia. I don't expect you to understand > > this statement. But in all honesty....it is true. Don't bother > > to look into it. I don't have time to give you ALL the info > > regarding the statement. > > Hey Steve, you didn't really need to write a crap like this, did you ? > But, then again, you don't expect some of us to understand it. > Since I really don't understand it and yet you seem so convinced in it, > a big juicy THANK YOU is in order for all of the Toronto guys that > provided us with a country. > > Cheers, > Zoran > ;^) stuff deleted >We in Toronto have done so much for >the RoM from staging a "Medicine for Macedonia" telethon at Toronto's >famed SkyDome that raised over $300,000 (not a typo) for medicine for >Macedonia when there was a shortage. We collected TONNES of clothes >to send back to Macedonia for the ppl that needed it most....whoever >they were (Albanians, Macedonians, Romi, etc). We HEADED UP the >lobby effort and campaign that actually got RoM RECOGNIZED. We have >done so much and have NEVER, and I mean never asked for a pat on >the back. SO.....George's statement about the Macedonians of Toronto >was VERY INSULTING since he knows nothing of what we have accomplished. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well the Macedonians in Brisbane (about 50-60 families) colected about $7000 for medicine for Macedonia when there was a shortage, we campaigned for recognition of the Republic, held demonstrations, argued with greeks, talked to the politicians etc There must be 200-300 times more Macedonians in Toronto, you must have a lot of intelectuals/politicians among them, so it must have been much easier for you to accomplished certain things. The above written paragraph is VERY INSULTING for all the other Macedonians throughout the world and in the Republic, like they have done nothing or very little to help the country. Every single person that declares as Macedonian has helped achive Macedonias independence just by being Macedonian and telling people around (majority in the western countries would not have a clue abou Macedonia or Greece for that matter) about Macedonia and the Macedonians. So please do not start discussions like this, who has done what, everybody has done more or less for Macedonia and must be proud of it. Claiming that without people from Toronto macedonia could not have achieved its independence is IMHO non sense, but again I could be wrong. Can you please give more details why? As for Albanians, I think they have every right available for all the others living in the country. I have never had any problems with them, but again I have benn out of the country for 9 years now so things may have changed. Discrimination against them may happen but probably as in here on a individual basis and not as a government "unofficial" policy against Albanians. In Australia there is plenty of cases of discrimination (especialy if you dont have english name) so what, that does not mean that Australia is not a democratic country, that happens everywhere, probably much more in Europe. >Blagodaram, >Stevce Saragilovce Dusko Ginoski Down Under ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 02:37:45 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoya Naskova Subject: Re: Forwarded: MAKEDON Digest - 19 Nov 1994 to 20 Nov 1994 RE: It could'n be that bad. It's a safe bet that you would be much safer walking the streets at night anywhere in Skopje than wherever you are now. REPLY: Well, Monterey is pretty safe, and nobody wants to compare Macedonia with Los Angeles. You keep talking to me like I were against the nationalities gatting along, or like I am trying to make pure Macedonia. Please, do not attribute such thoughts to me. I will repeat again: if people say they have concerns, fears, problems, you cannot ignore them in the name of some perceived ideal of what Macedonia is/should be. That is called denial. Poverty, education and birth rates are an endless cycle: no one has been able to answer yet exactly which comes first. Does poverty bring high birth rates, or high birth rates bring poverty. It is the chicken and the egg question. Mind you, Macedonians had just as many children a generation ago (my grandmother had twelve, 4 of which lived to old age). Well, after WWII the new generations drastically reduced their birth rates (my parents had three, all doing well, thank you). Not because they were so wealthy, but it was a conscious decission thay made in order to provide better lives for their children than they feld they had gotten. If Macedonians are doing so well now compared to Albanians (should we say both started about the same), which you seem to imply, then it must be that lowering birth rates improves your chances of progress. religion and tradition plays a big role here, but there is time to end tradition which is stupid. There was talk years ago that a hocja/mula would not come to bless and Albanian's house until they had their fifth child. This may be a bunch of bull, but if it isn't, it poses a lot of questions. If you have many children nowadays, you probably will have difficulty supporting them in Macedonia, so they are forced to start working young, do not get educated and remain marginalized, doing smuggling, black market, odd jobs, or having to work abroad. Much of this happened to Albanian young men in Macedonia, as I perceive it. And then they look at themselves and say they were discriminated against. There are many shovinist jerks in Macedonia, but you cannot blame them for everything. Zoya ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 03:42:31 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Albanians Thanks, Plamen, but somebody--I thought it was you--was kind enough to send me the RoM Constitution via MAKEDON L. Also I don't have WWW capability yet since my machine at home is doesn't have GUI capability (though my office machine does). However sent me the RoM Constitution, thanks again. It made working until 4 a.m. worth it! -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Plamen Bliznakov wrote: > Glen Camp writes... > > > Do you know where I could get a handy copy of your Constitution > >and read it for myself in English? I would be most grateful! > > One of the places you can find it are the WWW pages on Republic of Macedonia > at one of the servers here at ASU. Ask around how to start a WWW browser > (e.g., Mosaic), then select location (URL) > http://ASUdesign.eas.asu.edu/places/Macedonia/republic > > One of the links is to a file with the Constitution. You can save it > and / or print it out from your WWW browser. > > Regards, > > Plamen > Plamen.Bliznakov@ASU.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 03:50:26 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: QUESTION I think they're called "bakers" if they bake whether desserts (we don't call them sweets, that's "English English" not "American English". I don't know what the Canadians call them, Alex. We don't have the wonderful variety of "sweets" you do in the Balkans or in Central Europe (especially Vienna!) The "kadaif" and baklava and galactoburiko and a special dessert with a long Turkish name made out of chicken of all things--something like Kaochuk--is really enough to make one take off for the Balkans. -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 04:37:01 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: One. two, three, or four, or . . . Macedonias Yes she does since she learned it from her "nanny" along with English, French, German, Italian, Ladino--all from different "nannies" hired by her father. It was quite common among upper class Greeks I gather. But it's been quite a while since she spoke it and, unfortunately, she never learned to write it as she did with the other languages. We hope to remedy this lack when we visit RoM this summer. -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Slavko Mangovski wrote: > On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Glen Camp wrote: > > > [del] > > RoM has *location*! You also seem to have a very sophisticated > > class of people who are on-line (OL) from the quality of this group and > > the "threads" I've read. I'll have to learn more about your country when > > I visit this summer and talk with your citizens (hopefully I'll be able > > to converse in Macedonian by then!!) If not, my wife can translate for > > me. > > > You are confusing us, Professor? Does your wife speak Macedonian? > > Good luck with your new Republic of Macedonia! > ^^^^ > > Not really new. It's been around since 1944. > > > > > Pozdrav. > > > > -- > > Glen D. Camp > > Professor of Political Science > > Bryant College > > 401-232-6246 > > > > > Slavko > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 04:58:45 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: one, two, three or four... I don't quite understand your post, Lubi. So far as I know the woman who taught my wife Macedonian was a fine person. I'm not sure what kind of Macedonian she was and it really seems irrelevant since learning is a value in and of itself. Sarcasm on or off seems to me to be a bit counterproductive to a useful discussion of the RoM's serious issues which I have been privileged to share on this group. I hope we can avoid personal animosities or "flames" since they hurt people's feelings and strike me as unhelpful. I gather that you have very sensitive feelings and shall try not to hurt them. I ask only that you treat me the same way. -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Lubi Uzunovski wrote: > in Message-Id: <9411201938.AA01763@portnoy.canrem.com> > Glen Camp wrote, > > > As to Greeks being stubborn, I should know--I married one! > > then in Message-Id: <9411220019.AA08861@portnoy.canrem.com> > Glen writes, > > >I'll have to learn more about your country when I visit this summer and > >talk with your citizens (hopefully I'll be able to converse in Macedonian > >by then!!) If not, my wife can translate for me. > > [Sarcasm on] : > Well, you have a very interesting wife. Not only is she Greek, > but she can speak Macedonian. She must have picked it up from > the "Greek-Macedonians". Surely she won't be able to translate > for you when you visit RoM since you yourself have made it clear > that those people are "Slav-Macedonians". > > [Sarcasm off]: > We're just ethnic Macedonians who are found in all the partitioned > parts of Macedonia. Geographic modifiers aren't required nor are > they generally appreciated. > > > Lubi > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 05:33:08 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Czechs On the Second Front, I really think we did the best we could. The last time an army crossed the Channel was in 1066! And we had to build up a large enough force to break through tough Nazi coastal defenses and that was quite large indeed. On the issue of post-war aid to Russia, the Soviets were shipping everything not nailed down in the SOZ (later GDR) eastward which is under- standable but it meant the Western allies had to ship food into the German breadbasket to keep Germans under Soviet control from starving to death. Moreover, Stalin was clearly nailing down Russian control over all East Europe including Poland, CSR, etc. and we were very much afraid the Soviets would take over France and Italy where conditions were also very terrible in 1945-46. The ghastly civil war in Greece was starting up and we Americans had no idea what the future would hold. So your question also brings up another "tough question" still debated in the US and probably in RoM too! Who was responsible for the onset of the Cold War? Stalin was determined to establish a cordon sanitaire in East Eur- ope and *we* were determined to stop him from extending it into West Germany, France, and Italy. Stalin started trying to starve out West Berlin and we responded with the Airlift. He encouraged Kim Il Sung to attack South Korea in 1950, and he refused free elections in Poland despite promises to permit them. So the West had *some* reason to fear Stalin's expansiveness, but I feel your suspicion of Western aims may have some validity too. As in many huge confrontations, I suspect both East and West were at fault. But the West did not establish a Gulag Archipelago and I do feel that with all its faults, our system was free-er than the Soviet-- at least Russians got rid of Stalinism just as soon as they could. On the Czech-Slovak divorce, I see really no good reason why Czechs would profit when the optimum scale of economic enterprise is larger than either Czech *or* Slovak lands alone. That is Czech pros- perity was badly hurt when 4,000,000 Slovaks left. And German money goes where business is better and it's certainly better in the Czech lands where democracy is well established than in Vladimir Meciar's Slovakia where it is still shakey. I await your views with interest, Zoya. -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 On Tue, 22 Nov 1994, Zoya Naskova wrote: > RE: > I think you're quite wrong about the "divorce" between the Czechs and > Slovaks. That was pushed through primarily by the Slovak leadership, esp. > by Vladimir Meciar as I understand it. The divorce was fought by Vaclav > Havel since it was counterproductive to the Czech "New Forum" leadership > class by weakening their political base. That a few Czech leaders may have > supported a divorce is possible, but since the Czechs were the dominant > political group in the combined Czechoslovakia, *they* had nothing to gain > by a divorce. > REPLY: > > You said nothing about the 'Second Front" and the promissed, but never > delivered after-war aid issues. The Western alies waited for Hitler to get > tired (while destroying 25 million people) and then attacked Europe. > > Regarding the Czech, they had everything to gain by the separation. THey got > to dump their poor "brothers" and have nothing slow them down on their way to > heaven. Anyway, that's what some say. Meciar mentioned secession if > Slovakia did not get more help from the center. The Czechs played his bluff > and said, ok, if you want to leave, good bye. The Slovaks found themselves > holding their "independence," hurt and resentful. Also, German money was > already flowing into the Czech Republic, but not in Slovakia. In any case, I > wasn't there, but according to many things I have read, and a paper a friend > of mine wrote last semester, it sounds true. > > Zoya > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 05:42:35 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: One. two, three, or four, or . . . Macedonias Power in the international arena has been defined by E. H. Carr in the Twenty Years' Crisis (1919-1939) as political-economic, military, and "power over opinion." His book is a wonderful introduction to the subject. Power then certainly includes the quality of leadership, as well as natural resources, the discipline and sense of unity of a people, educational levels, technological development, etc. Imagine how little Brandenburg--the "salt box of Europe" could turn into mighty Prussia with almost no resources except an amazingly disciplined people and a brilliant leader (Friedrich the Great). Or Israel which has very limited natural resources and a small population compared to 80 million Arabs and yet won all its wars (1948, 1967, 1973, etc.). Finally for real power the people of a country have to be united by a common dream. This is just a first cut at the problem. -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 On Tue, 22 Nov 1994, Zoya Naskova wrote: > RE: > But "power" can come from many sources: wealth, population (PRC), > location and history (Israel), advanced military technology (W. Europe, > US), or some combination thereof. > RoM has *location*! You also seem to have a very sophisticated > class of people who are on-line (OL) from the quality of this group and > the "threads" I've read. I'll have to learn more about your country > > REPLY: > Well, thanks Mr. Camp, you are so kind. > Yes, it may be true about the power issue. But power is relative, and power > is also attitude, as well. Is it wealth that brings power, or the audacity > to "squeek" at the right time and the right place (to demand and not beg for) > that brings power and wealth (which are more or less the same, unless you win > the lottery). You have to win to be a winner, and you cannot win by cowering > in the corner (then you are not even a player). By the way, we do not really > have a word for loser and winner in Macedonian in the sense it is used in the > US. That says something. . .?? > > Zoya > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 10:58:54 GMT Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: M Petkovski Subject: Re: QUESTION + Hi Steve, This is your reaction to my answer to "THE QUESTION": > > hahahahaha..... > ... and then your conclusion: > I respect your answer however. > Thank You. > > This is the kind of reply that I want. > > Steve Saragil > Now my question to you is: "Are you trying to make fools of (some of) us?". NOTE (or "Let us put it straight") On patriotizm, idealizm & all sorts of izms First, I wouldn't bother to discuss questions like "Would you prefer to have Albanians in Macedonia?", with someone coming from RM. Those people are simply schovinists and what can you chat with that sort of people ("What to do to the shiptars? Shall we burn'em or shall we shut'em?") So the question is what makes you (possibly) different or why am I still discussing this with you, especially when you are taking a piss of it or ? Because I have met some of you guys/gels from overseas and I know that you are a bit romantic about Macedonia. For you - it is the land of your grandparents, a more or less sacred stuff. Of course they remembered and told you all the nice things and forgotten the bad ones. After only three years here I find myself feeling pretty much the same way. Do you really think I love it more just because it looks so nice from there/here - all lakes & mountains, sunshine, fruits, rakija & salata under the oak-tree in the back garden? Is that it? For us (natives), Macedonia is a dump in the middle of nowhere - no direct flights, no trains, no public transportation, no comp networks, no newspapers, no books, no records (yes, you can byu all the fancy Italian Fashion and the latest models of German cars & Jap stereos, who cares about books). You can probably get anything else as well, but at a right price, I mean a price a bit TOO right for the majority (the mortals). However, for me/us it is the only country I have and if it isn't working it is my fault too, if everything is messed up it means that we (the natives) have screwed up our part of the general screw-up. Now you tell me you love it more, or you have done more just because you weren't about to do your part of the job. On the Albanians and the guts It is not a question whether someone has/has not guts to discuss the matter. On the contrary. Before the first elections, when I was among those delighted to have REAL Macs in power, instead of Colishevich & His Scum, my first dissapointment was to hear some of them calling the Albanians "SHIPTARI" on TV. I know, this is the word they use among themselves, but considering the way it was promoted in the election campaign it was plainly insulting. Something like "We couldn't say that before, but now we are the power and we can say whatever we like". Sadly, this was one of the things that attracted lots of votes. I couldn't believe WE were turning into bullies. This is one of the subjects I can go forever... All the best Mihail -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mihail Petkovski, University of Sheffield, Department of Civil & Structural Engineering, Mappin Street, Sheffield S1 4DU, UK Tel. (0114) 2825 071; Fax. (0114) 2728 910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 17:40:16 GMT+3 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zhidas Daskalovski Subject: Re: QUESTION + Steve wrote >I didn't mean that we would have to kill the Albanians. All I asked >was would you prefer to have them there, regardless of the fact that >they are there now. >AGAIN....I am against no one. >I respect your answer however. >Thank You. >This is the kind of reply that I want. >Steve Saragil Honestly, NO!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 09:04:26 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Vladimir Vuksan Subject: Re: IRC In-Reply-To: On Tue, 22 Nov 1994, Sasho Kalajdzievski wrote: > Need some info, and it seems you might help. > > Who is the "operator" of #macedonia ? I was there some time ago, > essentially did not say a word, and then I > found that I was "banned". Who does these things? Slightly puzzled. Currently me, Sacho and one more person are in control of the channel. Unfortunately during last few months we have had a bunch of problems with a group of Greeks who was controlling the channel and basically kicking all Macedonians out. There are much many of them and we have a really hard time to keep the control of the channel. That is why Sacho suggested to use channel #macos instead if you are not able to get on #macedonia.We hope we keep it this time. Take care Vladimir ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 12:31:28 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: The Bulgarians speak In-Reply-To: <199411191823.NAA83946@tequesta.gate.net> On Sat, 19 Nov 1994, Slavko Mangovski wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 04:56:47 UTC > From: Angel Dimov > To: mango@gate.net > Subject: your mail > > > Vo originalnata poraka Slavko (an157208@anon.penet.fi) napisha: > > >A koi se tie "nashi", g. Dimov? Sprema vasite napisi jas sum ubeden deka > >Vasite "nashi" ne se voopsto nashi. Ili, Gospod da ne cuva ot takvi > >"nashi". Sme gi imale, a ocigledno i denes si gi imame. Ako gi nemaveme, > >ke si imavme drzava uste pred sto godini. > > Nashi po mene se site Makedonci. Site Makedonci. Dobro, ajde da vidimi koi se tie 'site'. Dali na primer se Makedonci i Bugarite ili Grcite koi velat deka se Makedonci? Patriot i predatel se relativni > pojmovi. Toa e navisitina taka. Site nie sto velime deka sme Makedonci a ne Bugari sme 'predavnici za Bugarstinata vo Makedonija'. A pak site onie sto velat deka sme Bugari se predavnici za makedonstinata. Jasno, neli? Edinstvenata razlika e shto, kako velish, "vashite-nashi" se na > vlast vo Makedonija veke 50 (should I say 70 years?). Pa bidekji, sprema Vasata (Bugarskata) logika site nie sto ne sme Bugari sme Srbomani togas 70 g. e pravata cifra. Vistinskite > patrioti ako dojdat na vlast vo Makedonia eden den, ke gi poznaeme po toa > shto nema da gi prodolzhuvaat delbite na "nashi-vashi" i "vashi-nashi", od > koj ochigledno vie ne mozhete da se oslobodite. Tie 'vistinski' patrioti navistina nema da ne delat povekje: neli ke si bideme Zapadna Bugarija. Do togash, Gospod golem ... > Gospod ili Lucifer, se zavisi... > >BTW blagodarime za vcerasnite > >anonimni napisi za Carnegi komisijata. > > Nema potreba da mi blagodarish mene (niti da mi persirash), oti jas ne > gi ni prativ. Najarno e da mu se zablagodarish na an149531@anon.penet.fi. > Ako vnimatelno poglednesh mojot id e an97122@anon.penet.fi. > Togas se izvinuvam, iako imase premnogu slucajnosti koi pokazuvaa kon Vas: Vie go negiravte dokumentot, Vie kazavte deka ste ja kupile knigata, vie imate 'anon' adresa.... > >: Ushte po interesno, kriteriumot za tova im e veruvanjeto vo > >: oficielniot ("marksistichki") pogled kon nashata ponova istorija. > >: Ne sakaat da razberat deka ima mnogu razlichni pogledi i tolkuvanja > >: na istorijata, i deka nivniot e samo eden od mnozinstvoto. > > > >Se razbira! Zosto da si imame nase tolkuvanje na istorijata koga veke > >mozeme da pozajmime gotovi tolkuvanja, "tie vistinskite", od komsiite koi > >se eksperti za toa i mnogu po spremni od nas. > > Ne gledam zoshto e potrebna tvojava ironia. Jas nikogash ne kazhav > deka treba da se zema onova shto go proklamiraat "komshiite". Naprotiv! > Rekov deka tie se vo slichna sostojba kako i yugo-makedoncite chij pogledi > se zvanichni i edinstveno pozvoleni vo RoM. Tvoite NE SE NEZAVISNI pogledi, > ama, kako i mnogu drug - so jasna cel. Zhal mi e ako toa ne mozhesh da go > vidish. > No mozam da go vidam, bidejki jas gladam kon rabotite so makedonski oci a Vie so bugarski. I se razbira, mojata cel e jasna: promocija i zastita na Makedonskiet interesi vo svetot. A i Vasata e jasna: promocija i zastita na Bugasrkite interesi vo svetot. A dali moite ili Vasite se nezavisni... Toa se gleda i od Vasite izjavi: 100% identicni so tie na Bugarite: nema Makedonci, site sme Bugari; onie sto ne se slozuvaat so toa se 'srbomani'. > >: Po mene samo eptem naiven chovek mozhe da veruva deka nashite komshii > >: sekogash ja prikazhuvale istorijata kako shto si e, ama da se veruva > >: deka drzhavnite istorichari vo SRM vo isto vreme toa go pravile - e > >: chista ludost. > > > >Tocno taka! Naseto e se falsificirano, nemame nie istorija, ne sme ni ona > >sto mislime deka sme. Za da znaeme koi sme, treba da gledame koi bile > >"prodadenite dusi" vo nasate istorija i, bogami, zatoa imame golem izbor? > > "Prodadena dusha" za eden, e mozhebi svetec za drugi. Jas mozham > da pretpostavam koj se za tebe tie, a i ti mozhesh da pogodish koj se > predatelite po mene. I sam vikash deka tie shto mislele inaku od tebe > bile pomnogubrojni vo nashata istorija. Tova e i mojata poenta. > Mozete li? Se somnevam. No jas mozam: eve gi Vasite najgolemi svetci: Ivan Mihajlov i Todor Aleksandrov. Deka tie cel zivot go pominale da ne napravat Zapadna Bugarija ne e vazno. Pa neli tie, ai i denesnite nivni naslednici, govorea 'Makedonija na Makedoncite'? A zosto 'na Makedoncite' koga site sme Bugari, to ne e vazno. > >Mozi duri da se narece i privilegija, da ne kazam luksuz! Odi na Jug, i, > >voila, mozes da bides Grk vednaz, pa zarem nemame takvi na iljadi. Odi na > >Istok... > > Imalo mnogu luge koj se prodavale za privilegiji od sekogash. > Tova go pravele i pod Tursko, i Bugarsko i vo stara Jugoslavija i vo SRM i > sega ... > I sega, mnogu tocno. Vie ste prv megju niv. > >: Zoshto chista ludost? Pa zatoa shto i najmaloto dete od Makedonija > >: znae deka SAMO EDEN pogled na nashata nova istorija beshe dozvolen > >: vo poslednive 50 godini. NIKAKVA alternativa, nikakov sudir na > >: mislenja, nishto. Shto ti servira Laze Kulishot, Blazhe Konjot i > >: crvenata tajfa - tova ti e. Sakash kupuvaj - sakash ostavaj. > > > >Sigurno, komsiskite "crveni" se mnogu podobri od nasite, pa neli tie > >znaat... > > Site crveni se isti, po mene. Tuka nema nashi i nivni. Po mene, > site se nivni. Na tebe e da reshish da li ke zastanesh so niv ili ne. Jas sekogas ke zastanam so Makedonci, bez obzir na boite. > > >So edna golema razlika, g. Dimov, nasite "crveni", sprema mene, > >otsekogas bile mnogu podobri od bilo koi komsiski "boi". Barem se nasi. > >So drugi zborovi, g. Dimov, podobro komunist Makedonec, otkolku > >ne-komunist ne-Makedonec. > > Tova e tvoj izbor. (a za mene ne e tova nikakvo iznenaduvanje) > Sprema delata chovekot se ceni. Ako gi prodolzhuvash i podrzhuvash delata > na Kolishevich, Konjoski i bandata, nema smisla da vikash deka si razlichen > od niv. Mi e stra samo deka Makedonec za tebe e sinonim so srboman. > Koneski=Konjski? Mnogu ubavo, g. Dimov. > >: Taka i nashiov Lubi, vo dalechnata i studenata Kanada, vospituvan > >: verojatno od vesnicite na "Maticata na iselenicite", si go zima > >: pravoto na dzhandar od pasoshkiot oddel na MVR, i reshava kogo ke > >: go udostoi so imeto Makedonec i na kogo ke mu go dade siniot > >: pasosh. (abe, da ne e za plachenje, slatko ke se nasmeevne.) > >: > > > >Pa ocigledno! Neli Tito site nas ne napravi sto sme vo 1945! Vo isto > >vreme imaa i 'brainwashing' ucilista vo celiot svet kade gi lazea lugjeto > >deka ne bile Bugari tuku Makedonci! > > Makedonskata emigracija vo svetot e jasno podelena na onaja > dojdena pred-1944 i post-1944. Tova e istorijski fakt. Za prichinite > mozheme da diskutirame. Izgleda deka sepak ne ja poznavate emigracijata koku sto si mislite. Ne postoi takva podelba. No znam sto sakata da kazete: tie pred 1944 se Bugari, tie posle se Makedonci (so izmien mozok, se razbira). Edna rabota ne mi e jasna g. Dimov. Ako ni go 'izmile' mozokot vo 1944 (so isklucok na Vas i slicni na Vas) i nie veleime deka sme Makedonci, togas zosto Vie ne kazuvate deka ste Bugari? Neli vas ne Vi e izmien mozokot, a i ja 'znaete' vistinata, kako sto sam go velite. y > > >: Od druga strana, Daniel koj postirashe (pretpostavuvam bez da > >: znae) falsifikati pechateni vo SRM od prevodot na knigata na > >: Karnegievata komisia za Balkanskite vojni, ne najde za shodno da > >: se izvini, ili barem da ni kazhe od kade gi zemal tia > >: fikcii. > > > >Ama zatoa Vie vcera gi "post"-iravte. Uste ednas blagodarime, iako toa > >base anonimno i sakavte da ne zavedete so "Skopie" mesto "Skopje". No nie > >ne se lutime. Sekoj si ima pravo na svoe mislenje. > > Vidi pogore. Mi se javia destina Makedonci od cel svet so lichni > poraki, no pak ne go postirav tochniot citat. (Mnogu bi se iznenadel koga bi > gi videl ovija poraki). Iako beshe ochevidno deka e yugo-makedonska ujdurma > knigata od kade postiral Danny. Gi utna, siroma, i iminjata na chlenovite na > komisijata. Sakav Dancho sam da go napravi tova. No, nekoj drug ja svrshi > zadachata za nego, i go stori rezil pred celiot anm. (prati mu poraka na > an149531@anon ako te interesira da razberesh koj e). Da mi beshe celta da gi > postiram citatite, ke go napravev tova odma, a ne po mesec dena. > I dokazavte deka vo Makedonija nemase Makedonci tuku site bea Bugari. Neli taka? A zosto ima lugje vo Grcija i Bugarija koi velat deke ne se Bugari ami Makedonci i koi niv im go izmil mozokot e prasanje koe nikoj od vas Bugarite ne mozel da mi odgovori. > >A zosto vo sito > >vreme avtori kako Anglicanecot Laffin, Francuzinot de Belle a i drugi > >avtori zboruvaat deka ako se prasat selanite sto se ke kazat deka se > >Makedonci? > > Ne li ti e chudno deka site ovie koj gi spomna se najgolemite sojuznici > na Srbite od vremeto? Ili tova e "olesnitelna okolnost" za tebe? :-) > ^^^^^^ Nov 'bugaro-makedonski' zbor? Da, navistia, skoro zaboraviv deka Srbite ne 'napravile' Makedonci. A zosto ne ne ostavaa da se kazuvame kako takvi, ne e jasno? > >A zosto samo nekolku godini pokasno naogjame pisma vo Grckiot > >"Rizospastis" kade Makedoncite se zalat deke se obezpraveni i deka gi > >vikaat "Bugari"? > > I sam ubavo ko kazha - POKASNO! Tova ti e odgovorot. > > (btw, na srpski e "pokasno", an na makedonski "podocna", no tova nema vrska, ^^^^^ > te razbrav shto sakashe da mi kazhesh. Nali site uchevme srpski vo osnovnite > uchilishta vo "slobodna" SR Makedonija. "Milina, shta da ti pricham". :-)) Pak tova. Mesto da mi go korogirate mojot makedonski, mozebi podobro bi bilo da posvetite malku vreme na Vasiot, ili pak mozeme da si zboruva,e na Bugarski, neli to e nasiot prav jazik. > > >: Neste li se prashale zoshto edna takva kniga nikogash ne e bila > >: prevedena ili dostapna vo original vo SRM? Sigurno razlogot ne e > >: finansijski, oti se preveduvaa i pechatea kaj nas zbirki na Japonska > >: poezia i prikazni na svahili. Jas ja barav so godini vo skopskata > >: biblioteka ovaa kniga, i nikogash ne mi ja dadoa so izgovor deka mi > >: trebelo "pismo od moeto OOZT ili fakultetot za koj proekt ke sum ja > >: koristel!?". > > > > Ama sigurno mozevte da ja najdete vo Sofija. Tamu ima prava sloboda. > > Ne znam, oti nikogash ne sum bil vo Bugarija. A za "prava sloboda" > tamu ne znam, mozhe si mislish (kako simpatizer :-)) deka se kade bea > komunistite tamu beshe i sloboda. Nashite luge imaat stradano vo Bugarija vo > nekoj periodi isto kolku i vo dvete Jugoslavia, ako ne i povekje. Nasi lugje vo Bugarija? Pa neli tie tamu site se 'nashi', osven se razbira, tie sto velat deka ne se Bugari ami makedonci. > > >Srbite imaat edna pogovorka, koja ke ja citiram svesen deka ke me narecat > >"pro-Srbin": "Tesko je kad se seljak pokonduri". Ove ne e uvreda za Vas, > >g. Dimov. > > Ne znam kako drugo da ja razberam ako ne kako obid za uvreda? Imash li > ti nekoja podobra ideja? A ako sakash da citirash srpski, barem napravi go > "kako valja": se vika "pokondiri" a ne "pokonduri". (Shto ke pra'ish - "Nije > lako Srbin biti".:-) Znaesh kako vikaat: vari go, pechi go, ke si ostanesh ona > shto si. Nema edna pogovrka da te napravi srboman. Samo onova shto propagirash > mozhe tova da te napravi. (dobro e deka imash barem svest za toa). > > >Imam samo eden sovet do Vas: ako se bavite so istorija odete do > >kraj, inaku ima opasnost deka nema da ja razberete. > > I sam gledash kolku e besmislena ovaa rechenica. Oti nie site > mislime deka onoj drugiot ne razbral i ne otishol do krajot ... Vie, g. Dimov, a i slicnite kako Vas, ste kako 'rak' vo teloto na Makedonija. Vie im sluzite na Bugarskite interesi vo Makedonija i ja pretsavuvate 'pettata kolona' koja ke gi doceka 'osloboditelite' ako slucajno Makedonija se destabilizira, so cvekinja i otvoreni race. Lugjeto kako Vas se noz vo grbot na site Makedonci koi se borat za svoite prava vo Grcija i Bugarija. Edinstvena uteha e deka takvi kako Vas se mnogu malku. > > >Po greska ova Vi go prakjam samo Vas, a ne na anm. Slobodno "post" irajte go. > > "Po greshka" i jas ti odgovaram samo na tebe :-). > > > Aj so zdravje i oti ti mi dade sovet eve i eden prijatelski za tebe: ne > veruvaj im tolku na komunistite. Sigurno znaesh (:-)) kako Srbuleto vika: > "Ko sa djavolom tikve sadi, o glavu mu se lupaju". > > Mnogu pozdravi, > > Angel > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi. > Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, > and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. > Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin@anon.penet.fi. > Slavko ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 13:16:02 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: Re: Czechs Sorry but... I think that Mr. Camp and Zoya really get carried away with their pre/post/cold war/chech/Stalin/slovak/.../divorce debate. I bet there are much more appropriate forums to discuss these issues on. Have mercy...We are not all professors in pol. sci. Cheers, Zoran ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 11:26:55 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Plamen Bliznakov Subject: Re: Albanians > Thanks, Plamen, but somebody--I thought it was you--was kind enough >to send me the RoM Constitution via MAKEDON L. Nope, it was not me. Actually, Sacha Shopov originally typed the text of the Constitution in English, so all of us should be most thankful to him. Regards, Plamen Plamen.Bliznakov@ASU.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 08:55:12 +1000 Reply-To: EPI_DUSKO@seqeb.gov.au Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: "DUSKO GINOSKI, SEQEB" Subject: Re: QUESTION Something went wrong with my previous posting so here it is again .... stuff deleted .... >We in Toronto have done so much for >the RoM from staging a "Medicine for Macedonia" telethon at Toronto's >famed SkyDome that raised over $300,000 (not a typo) for medicine for >Macedonia when there was a shortage. We collected TONNES of clothes >to send back to Macedonia for the ppl that needed it most....whoever >they were (Albanians, Macedonians, Romi, etc). We HEADED UP the >lobby effort and campaign that actually got RoM RECOGNIZED. We have >done so much and have NEVER, and I mean never asked for a pat on >the back. SO.....George's statement about the Macedonians of Toronto >was VERY INSULTING since he knows nothing of what we have accomplished. Well the Macedonians in Brisbane (about 50-60 families) colected about $7000 for medicine for Macedonia when there was a shortage, we campaigned for recognition of the Republic, held demonstrations, argued with greeks, talked to the politicians etc There must be 200-300 times more Macedonians in Toronto, you must have a lot of intelectuals/politicians among them, so it must have been much easier for you to accomplished certain things. The above written paragraph is VERY INSULTING for all the other Macedonians throughout the world and in the Republic, like they have done nothing or very little to help the country. Every single person that declares as Macedonian has helped achive Macedonias independence just by being Macedonian and telling people around (majority in the western countries would not have a clue abou Macedonia or Greece for that matter) about Macedonia and the Macedonians. So please do not start discussions like this, who has done what, everybody has done more or less for Macedonia and must be proud of it. Claiming that without people from Toronto macedonia could not have achieved its independence is IMHO non sense, but again I could be wrong. Can you please give more details why? As for Albanians, I think they have every right available for all the others living in the country. I have never had any problems with them, but again I have benn out of the country for 9 years now so things may have changed. Discrimination against them may happen but probably as in here on a individual basis and not as a government "unofficial" policy against Albanians. In Australia there is plenty of cases of discrimination (especialy if you dont have english name) so what, that does not mean that Australia is not a democratic country, that happens everywhere, probably much more in Europe. >Blagodaram, >Stevce Saragilovce Dusko Ginoski Down Under ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 19:29:12 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@WAVE.SCAR.UTORONTO.CA> Subject: Re: QUESTION + In-Reply-To: <9411221138.AA22743@wave.scar.utoronto.ca> from "M Petkovski" at Nov 22, 94 10:58:54 am > > Hi Steve, > > This is your reaction to my answer to "THE QUESTION": > > > > > hahahahaha..... > > *SIGH, SIGH, SIGH, SIGH, SIGH* NO...I was laughing because you stated that the Macedonians would have to KILL, RAPE, perform GENOCIDE to get the Albanian minority out of Macedonia. The REASON I laughed was that an answer like that did not even come across my mind. I don't want to see any of the above atrocities made to any ethnic group anywhere. All I wanted was an answer/comment/view/opinion regarding the question. Not one of killing, death, turmoil. A simple YES or NO to would you prefer to have them there would have sufficed. Your answer simply caught me off gaurd. I felt that if someone responded to it...this discuss might go off on a tangent to discussing the possibilites of genocide. THis is not what I wanted. I hope I didn't insult you. I was not laughing at you. > ... and then your conclusion: > > > > I respect your answer however. > > Thank You. > > > > This is the kind of reply that I want. I respected your answer because you made me think of a violent senerio that MIGHT happen if forces wanted to oust the Albanian minority. I never wanted to think of violence. I am not a violent person. I was just looking at a personal response to a question of do YOU like the fact that they are there. Regardless of the fact that they ARE there and have been there for years. > Now my question to you is: "Are you trying to make fools of (some of) us?". My answer to your question is: NO! I just want to see how Macedonians view the relationship between themselves and the Albanians in RoM. ****************************************************************** A HINT to all of the MAKEDON subscribers. The question was worded like that on purpose. ****************************************************************** All I want is insight! In all of your defence, however, I will TRY to word my replies in a matter that will NOT offend. But in my defence...all replies to everyone have been very quick. No more than 2 min. per/reply because I am in school and between that and work...I don't have the time to send a formal reply. But I do appreciate any feedback. This is interesting! By the way...I'm minoring in Sociology. Stevce Saragilovce, Prespansko Makedonce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 19:21:02 -0600 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Hari Radin Subject: Tashkovich family Greetings MAKEDONERS, Several people commented on Tashkovich's but some things said were slightly inaccurate. Since I have known the Tashkovich family let me make few corrections: Tashkovich brothers are originally from Macedonia. They were born few years before the WWII in Skopje. Their father, Gligor Tashkovich was a Vlach from Bitola, while their mother was a Slovenian from Korushka. Their mother moved to Macedonia in 1920's with her first husband, a Serbian officer from Valjevo. When Macedonia become part of Serbia in 1918, her first husband was sent to Bitola as part of the Serbian (later Yugoslav) Royal Army. They had three children. In Bitola she met a very capable civil engineer and contractor Gligor Tashkovich, who was married at the time to his first wife. They fell in love, and move together to Skopje, after separating their spouses. There they had two sons, Vuko and Otto. In Skopje, their father Gligor Tashkovich was offered by the Banovina some of the most important projects at the time: among other things he was a contractor for the old Railway station and the "Banovina" building, nowdays known as Sobranie. During the WWII the Tashkovich's were in Skopje. After the war, for a brief period of time they become close to the new government (Mrs. Tashkovich was for a short period of time a member of the Skopje commission for nationalization and confiscation). However, Gligor Tashkovich had a sister in NY, and she managed to get him out of Yugoslavia. Soon after that Mrs. Tashkovich, who remained in Skopje, was accused of collaboration with the Germans (she was fluent in German, being educated in Austro-hungarian schools in Slovenia) and imprisoned together with her eldest son Ljubo (from her first marriage). She was convicted and her citizenship was taken away, so she was expelled from Macedonia. She move out to Serbia and Slovenia, later to go to USA, sending her two youngest sons, Vuko and Otto, to Bitola, to their paternal grand-parents. Vuko and Otto went to school in Bitola, and later joined their father in USA. Lately they are maintaining close connections with President Gligorov, and people from the government. They spend a lot of time in Macedonia, working on de-nationalization (through Minister Miljovski) of some of their properties (like their family house in Skopje, on Leninova street near the intersections with Ilindenska). In the mean time, Oto became a citizen of Skopje again - last year he divorced his wife in NY, and moved to Skopje (with a young Macedonian actress). Vuko's son, Gligor, was appointed a representative of the Macedonian National Bank. >From: SARAGIL STEVE <90saragi@WAVE.SCAR.UTORONTO.CA> > >I met Vuko last year at the UN when Macedonia was admitted as the >181st nation of the organization. He is a VERY good Macedonian who >if I remember, lives in New York. Again, if I remember, he was a major >force of the American-Macedonian lobby effort to get the Republic of >Macedonia recognized. Vuko, by my experience with him is a very good >man and Macedonian. He is from Bitola (or a neighbouring village) and >kept his name Tashkovich after the Serbs changed if from Tashkovski. No, Vuko's last name was Tashkoski when he came from Macedonia to study at Cornell, and he changed it back to Tashkovich in 1960's. >From: Kiril Vidimce Skopje Makedonija > Vuka Tashkovich is probably Oto's cousin or something... > > Oto != Vuka. > > Anyway, it's true that Oto Tashkovish was interested in > investing into a Skopje Sheraton Hotel, but he didn't > succeed to get the license, because some other (third party ;) > architects weren't too much happy about it. Just one correction. Otto was not interested in investing into the hotel, but in building it with solicited international funds. > > Family Tashkovich is a old Skopje's family. It's true > that they were Tashkovski 'till the First Yugoslavia, > when the Serbs made them change their surname into > Tashkovich. After the World War II, Oto's father emigrated > to USA, while Oto's mother took him and his brother to > Bitola (Oto's mother was from Bitola). No, their mother was a Slovenian. >From: Luben Todorouski > > This is all about same family, originaly from Resen. Their surname is > Tasskovicc (similar to slovinian surnames) not Taskovic (like the serbian). > I dont know the name of their father, but it is true that he was prominant > architect (some of the buildings in Skopje are his creation). I don't know about their Resen connection. They are a respected Vlach family from Bitola. > By the way, their father was active member of VMRO before and during the > second world war. I don't think that this is accurate. Their father was a supporter of the pre-war Yugoslav Royal society and some of their democratic structures. I have never heard of his involvement in the VMRO. BTW, VMRO was not active during the WWII. > But I'm positive that they don't have the money to invest in > such big enterprise, most probably their intention is somehow to attract > capital for the pipeline project. Very true. I hope this will clear up the things. In my opinion people like Tashkovich's are important for Macedonia, especially in these days of recognition and initial market economy, and their action should be supported. Salutes, Hari ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 11:00:16 +1000 Reply-To: EPI_DUSKO@seqeb.gov.au Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: "DUSKO GINOSKI, SEQEB" Subject: Re: QUESTION Steve Saragil wrote: .... some stuff deleted ..... >and that I took it to offence. I merely told him if all Macedonians >*in spirit* were like the ones from Toronto, we would have gotten >the RoM recognized long ago. THATS ALL! So why Canada still has not recognized Macedonia. Canada is the only country (from the ones that count) that has not recognized Macedonia. I think more effort from you guys is needed. >It is true that we are extra-ordinarily patriotic, but that does >WAY more good than bad; in my view! >Stevce Pozdrav, Dusko Ginoski Down Under ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 22:01:28 GMT-5 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: VLADIMIR OGNJANOVSKI Organization: Indiana State University Subject: Re: Polemiki na 21 nov. Zarko napisa: > no oni nemale Univerzitet na italijanski. Vo Svajcarija ima pomalku > odkolku vo Kanada, no mislam deka imaat. Ona vo sto sum siguren e deka > na jogurtot tekstot e na cetiri jazici. Edna rabota zaboravas Zarko! Svajcarija e KONFEDERACIJA, a kolku sto me sluzi pamtenjeto, Makedonija seuste e unitarna drzava. Zatoa seuste nema potreba na bozata treba da ima dvojazicni tekstovi. > No sto se odnesuva do Kanada, > ima eden drug primer - francuzite. Bi bilo interesno, ako vece taa > problemetaki mnogu ne interesira, nasive prijateli od Kanada da ni > napravat edno sporeduvanje na pravata na francuzite tamu i albancite > kaj nas. A na Francuzite vo Kanada sigurno celta ne im e da se odcepat i da si napravat avtonomija. > Drug primer; Finska. Vo Finska ima svedsko malcinstvo, i oni, > kolku sto se secavam, imaat svoj univerzitet. Koga, pred mnogu godini, > bev tamu me iznenadi sto iminjata na gradovite na patokazite bea > dvojazicni. Mi rekoa deka e toa taka zatoa sto Finska nekogas bila pod > Svedska, pa gradovite imaat i svedski iminja. E gledas, za razlika od Finska, Makedonija nikogas ne bila pod Albanija. Ama zatoa bila pod Srbija, pa nie i den denes imame dvojazicni patokazi, a bogami i dolgo vreme imavme zadolzitelni casovi po srpski jazik. > A oni imaat pojak argument od makedonskite nacionalisti: niv > gospod im ja vetil taa zemja, a nas koj? Da ne bese Tito ni ova ce > go nemavme. Ajdeee... > Eve jas, ziveev 28 godini vo > Makedonija, nemam nieden prijatel Albanec. Ne zatoa sto gi izbegavav, > nemav prilika da sretnam, ziveev vo centarot na Skopje, vo osnobno > ucev vo "Goce Delcev", gimnazija "Josip Broz", vo klas ne sretnav > nieden. Ako stvarno ne si gi izbegaval i tolku si sakal da sretnes nekoj, nemalo nisto polesno. Si trebal samo eden most da pomines. Pozdrav, Vlatko O. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 06:39:47 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Igor Petrovski Subject: Re: The Bulgarians speak In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 22 Nov 1994 18:49:00 GMT." <199411221751.AA13047@kekec.e5.ijs.si> On Sat, 19 Nov 1994, Slavko Mangovski wrote: > > From: Angel Dimov > > > >: Zoshto chista ludost? Pa zatoa shto i najmaloto dete od Makedonija > > >: znae deka SAMO EDEN pogled na nashata nova istorija beshe dozvolen > > >: vo poslednive 50 godini. NIKAKVA alternativa, nikakov sudir na > > >: mislenja, nishto. Shto ti servira Laze Kulishot, Blazhe Konjot i > > >: crvenata tajfa - tova ti e. Sakash kupuvaj - sakash ostavaj. Toa deka imase samo eden pogled na istorijata (i ne samo istorijata) ne e daleku od vistinata. Sto e verojatno odlika na site totalitarni opstestva. Samo sto ne veruvam deka vo drugite drzavi e mnogu poinaku. Istorijata sekade ja pisuvaat pobednicite. Ne mi e jasno sto imas protiv Blaze Koneski? > > > > Tova e tvoj izbor. (a za mene ne e tova nikakvo iznenaduvanje) > > Sprema delata chovekot se ceni. Ako gi prodolzhuvash i podrzhuvash delata > > na Kolishevich, Konjoski i bandata, nema smisla da vikash deka si razlichen > > od niv. Mi e stra samo deka Makedonec za tebe e sinonim so srboman. Na Kolishevski ne - nekako ne mi se igra i po Tito - Tito. A Blaze Konevski go podrzuvam napolno, a sigurno ima mnogu pokvalifikuvani od mene za da ja prodolzat negovata rabota. > I dokazavte deka vo Makedonija nemase Makedonci tuku site bea Bugari. > Neli taka? A zosto ima lugje vo Grcija i Bugarija koi velat deke ne se > Bugari ami Makedonci i koi niv im go izmil mozokot e prasanje koe nikoj > od vas Bugarite ne mozel da mi odgovori. Pa verojatno uste ne stignale da gi prevospitaat. Ama ako ne se lazam, brakjata ni B'lgari na sekoj Ilinden im go udiraat stapot na Makedoncite koga ke probat da se soberat. > > I sam ubavo ko kazha - POKASNO! Tova ti e odgovorot. > > > (btw, na srpski e "pokasno", an na makedonski "podocna", no tova nema > vrska, ^^^^^ > > te razbrav shto sakashe da mi kazhesh. Nali site uchevme srpski > vo osnovnite > uchilishta vo "slobodna" SR Makedonija. "Milina, shta da ti > pricham". :-)) BTW na srpski e 'kasnije'. Toa sto srpskiot zbor ima ista osnova (kasno) ne mora da znaci deka sme go zele od srbite. Ako nekoj na listata go ima pri raka Koneski (recnikot) moze da pogleda dali e kasno/pokasno vnatre. Vo sekoj slucaj e mnogu povoobicaen od tova/onova, za koi ne mi se veruva deka gi ima vo nekoj makedonski recnik. > >> Aj so zdravje i oti ti mi dade sovet eve i eden prijatelski za tebe: ne >> veruvaj im tolku na komunistite. Interesno. Na komunistite nepara im veruvam. Na tie sto se obiduvaat da mi kazat deka sum Bugarin/Srbin/Grk a ne Makedonec, uste pomalce. Igor. -- We are Microsoft. OS/2 is irrelevant. Unix is irrelevant. Open systems are futile. Prepare to be assimilated. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 02:01:52 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Czechs X-To: Zoran Mitrovski Sorry, Zoran. I'll be *sure* to make the Subject clear next time so anyone not entranced with the subject can delete the post w/o reading. For Zoya--there is an Hist-Diplomacy list and I'll try to post it directly to you personally without boring the non-history buffs. -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 On Tue, 22 Nov 1994, Zoran Mitrovski wrote: > Sorry but... > I think that Mr. Camp and Zoya really get carried away with their > pre/post/cold war/chech/Stalin/slovak/.../divorce debate. I bet there are > much more appropriate forums to discuss these issues on. > Have mercy...We are not all professors in pol. sci. > > Cheers, > Zoran > ;^) > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 02:09:06 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Czechs For Zoya et al. interested in pre- & post-WWII diplomatic history one list (which is moderated) is: send message to: listserv@uicvm.uic.edu sub h-pol yourname, your university They will then send you a short survey form and sign you up. As to your *not* being a pol. sci. professor, Zoran--you show commendable wisdom as there's no money in it and little prestige and it's a lot of hard work. ;-). -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 On Tue, 22 Nov 1994, Zoran Mitrovski wrote: > Sorry but... > I think that Mr. Camp and Zoya really get carried away with their > pre/post/cold war/chech/Stalin/slovak/.../divorce debate. I bet there are > much more appropriate forums to discuss these issues on. > Have mercy...We are not all professors in pol. sci. > > Cheers, > Zoran > ;^) > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 02:43:01 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Czechs Another group Zoya et al. might wish to join so as not to bore MAKEDON-L members not very interested in diplomatic history follows: Send command to: LISTSERV@UICVM.UIC.EDU Leave Subject line blank. Type in only under "Message Text" line: Subscribe -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 On Tue, 22 Nov 1994, Zoran Mitrovski wrote: > Sorry but... > I think that Mr. Camp and Zoya really get carried away with their > pre/post/cold war/chech/Stalin/slovak/.../divorce debate. I bet there are > much more appropriate forums to discuss these issues on. > Have mercy...We are not all professors in pol. sci. > > Cheers, > Zoran > ;^) > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 12:01:29 GMT+3 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zhidas Daskalovski Subject: Re: Urgent biznis Slavko, Imam da pishuvam paper za Makedonskiot nacionalizam pa mi se potrebni informacii za brojot na Makedoncite vo Egejska Makedonija pred Balkanskite vojni a i denes, kako i brojot na Mak. vo cela Mak. (v, e, p) togash i denes. Ako ima neshto interesno vo vrska so gorenavedenoto na gopher ili mosaic pishi. Odnapred blagodaram pozdrav od Zhidas. p.s. Shto stana so fajlot shto trebahse da go pobarash? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 11:23:58 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: QUESTION In-Reply-To: <9411220854.AA09925@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Glen Camp" at Nov 22, 94 03:50:26 am Hi ( zdravo ), > > I think they're called "bakers" if they bake whether desserts (we > don't call them sweets, that's "English English" not "American English". > I don't know what the Canadians call them, Alex. > We don't have the wonderful variety of "sweets" you do in the > Balkans or in Central Europe (especially Vienna!) The "kadaif" and > baklava and galactoburiko and a special dessert with a long Turkish > name made out of chicken of all things--something like Kaochuk--is really > enough to make one take off for the Balkans. > > -- > Glen D. Camp > Professor of Political Science > Bryant College > 401-232-6246 > > thank's! I just miseed the word. Yes kadaif and baklava are great, don't forget tulumbi, ekleri, ishleri and the best of all Boza ( it's a drink ). There is no drink like Boza, but one has to get used to the taste ( it took me 10 years to do so ). But when you do, you'll dream of it. Cheers Alex ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 18:22:00 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Lubi Uzunovski Organization: CRS Online (Toronto, Ontario) Subject: UN: one, two, three or four... in Message-Id: <9411221000.AA05416@portnoy.canrem.com> Glen Camp writes, >I don't quite understand your post, Lubi. So far as I know the >woman who taught my wife Macedonian was a fine person. I'm not sure >what kind of Macedonian she was and it really seems irrelevant since >learning is a value in and of itself. On the one hand, there is no point in pursing a question whose answer I already know. On the other, reference to the value of learning aside, I'm not sure I appreciate your public experimentations with my ethnos. While I do not deny your right to speak frankly, that doesn't mean that I appreciate some of your more callous remarks. The woman who taught your wife Macedonian is the same as the woman who taught me Macedonian. She was not a "Greek-Macedonian", nor a "Slav-Macedonian" nor a "Bulgarian-Macedonian". I would consider it a courtesy if you would be more thoughtful before you claim again that there are various forms of Macedonians. There is but one variety of the Macedonian ethnos. "Greek-Macedonians" and "Bulgarian-Macedonians" may or may not be ethnic Macedonians, so let's not become entangled by careless rhetoric. It is too easy to become confused when referring to an ethnic Macedonian from Greece versus an ethnic Greek from Macedonia. Think how you might feel if you came from a place where the authority in power spent the better part of the day forcing you not to exist. >Sarcasm on or off seems to me to be a bit counterproductive to a >useful discussion of the RoM's serious issues which I have been >privileged to share on this group. I hope we can avoid personal >animosities or "flames" since they hurt people's feelings and strike >me as unhelpful. I gather that you have very sensitive feelings and >shall try not to hurt them. I ask only that you treat me the same >way. Perhaps I have become more sensitive lately, and perhaps you were somewhat insensitive in your initial remarks. In any case I certainly didn't intend the message I sent you to be considered as flame bait. I'm grateful for your participation in this conference - it adds an objectivity, and dimension that many of us here simply cannot offer. You are wholly welcome here, to say your peace or argue if choose to disagree. I have no axe to grind with you, I merely wanted to let you know that I was having difficulty with some of your comments. Lubi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 04:57:06 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Plamen Bliznakov Subject: Re: The Bulgarians speak I really resent the attempt of Slavko etc. to bring the atmosphere of intolerance existing on alt.news.macedonia into MAKEDON L. I really appreciate the (mostly) constructive spirit existing on MAKEDON (which is the reason I completely stopped reading things on a.n.m. for quite some time until today). Moreover, Slavko is trying to start a dispute with a person who does not subscribe (as far as I know) to this mailing list (which itself is pretty cowardly). I intentionally ignored a couple of those postings, yet it seems without a reply the hysteria would keep on going. I really hope this thread would quickly die out (I myself have neither the time nor the interest to keep it going). I intentionally give a single (although longish) reply rather than blow it into several shorter answers. This way whoever is not interested in the subject could easier skip my message. Right in the beginning to avoid any misunderstandings I want to state clearly that I respect the right of Macedonians to have their own identity. I am _not_ claiming that all Macedonians nowadays are merely another brand of Bulgarians since to me a nationality of a person is what he/she claims to be. What strikes me however in this case is the attitude of Slavko (and it seems he is not alone). He is upset about The Truth. He is not angry that Daniel Veljanovski posted to a.n.m. excerpts from a "doctored" Carnegie report and as a result ridiculed in public himself and the idea of a distinct Macedonian nationality. No, Slavko seems himself to have been posting well clipped and taken out of context documents quite a bit recently. On the contrary, Slavko is upset that Mr. Dimov found out the discrepancies between the edition published in Skopje (used obviously by Daniel) and hinted about them in public (which led someone else to post excerpts from the actual text). In Slavko's perverted logic dissipating a lie is OK as far as this lie is "good" (according to Slavko's view) and not subscribing to a "good" lie is bad. According to the same perverted logic a person revealing The Truth is a "cancer" in the body of Macedonia... I would say, "Poor body with such a doctor..." On Tue, 22 Nov 1994 mango@GATE.NET wrote: >Vie, g. Dimov, a i slicnite kako Vas, ste kako 'rak' vo teloto na >Makedonija. Vie im sluzite na Bugarskite interesi vo Makedonija i ja >pretsavuvate 'pettata kolona' koja ke gi doceka 'osloboditelite' ako >slucajno Makedonija se destabilizira, so cvekinja i otvoreni race. >Lugjeto kako Vas se noz vo grbot na site Makedonci koi se borat za svoite >prava vo Grcija i Bugarija. Edinstvena uteha e deka takvi kako Vas se >mnogu malku. >No mozam da go vidam, bidejki jas gladam kon rabotite so makedonski oci a >Vie so bugarski. I se razbira, mojata cel e jasna: promocija i zastita na >Makedonskiet interesi vo svetot. A i Vasata e jasna: promocija i zastita >na Bugasrkite interesi vo svetot. A dali moite ili Vasite se nezavisni... >Toa se gleda i od Vasite izjavi: 100% identicni so tie na Bugarite: nema >Makedonci, site sme Bugari; onie sto ne se slozuvaat so toa se >'srbomani'. To Slavko a fellow Macedonian is a "Bulgarian agent" just because he speaks out defending a historical Truth. It is pretty hypocritical to hear such accusations from someone who is trying to talk about human rights of Macedonians, freedom of the consciousness, etc. As far as Mr. Dimov claiming that all Macedonians are nothing more than Bulgarians - I was not able to find out anything like that neither in Slavko's forwarded message, nor in a.n.m. postings I still have on my news-server. Moreover, Angel Dimov calls himself Macedonian. How would he do it if there were no Macedonians according to him ? To me there is nothing stronger than The Truth. People like Slavko are trying to put Macedonians against The Truth, which means trying to make fools out of Macedonians and a loosing cause out of the idea of the separate Macedonian identity. You cannot build a strong building by putting sand into its foundation. You cannot build a strong idea by putting lies into its foundation, since sooner or later those lies will start showing up and the whole idea will be downgraded to baloney. >On Sat, 19 Nov 1994, Slavko Mangovski wrote: > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 04:56:47 UTC >> From: Angel Dimov >> >> Nashi po mene se site Makedonci. > >Site Makedonci. Dobro, ajde da vidimi koi se tie 'site'. Dali na primer >se Makedonci i Bugarite ili Grcite koi velat deka se Makedonci? Sure anyone (no matter who - Bulgarian, Greek, etc.) who claims to be Macedonian is Macedonian. You yourself demand to be referred to as Macedonian (not even "Slav-Macedonian") based on your own perception of yourself. Why would you deny the same right to anyone else ? It strikes me that you try to deny the right of Mr. Angel Dimov to call himself "Macedonian" and try to _accuse_ him of being "Bulgarian" even though he explained well enough he was born in what is today Republic of Macedonia, baptized in a church in Skopje, and has never been to Bulgaria. At the same time Slavko in some of his messages self-identifies himself as an American. So who is more Macedonian ? >> Site crveni se isti, po mene. Tuka nema nashi i nivni. Po mene, >> site se nivni. Na tebe e da reshish da li ke zastanesh so niv ili ne. > >Jas sekogas ke zastanam so Makedonci, bez obzir na boite. Here is another example of Slavko's perverted logic. Everyone who claims to be "pure" Macedonian is good, no matter if he/she is a Communist criminal or not. >> Makedonskata emigracija vo svetot e jasno podelena na onaja >> dojdena pred-1944 i post-1944. Tova e istorijski fakt. Za prichinite >> mozheme da diskutirame. > >Izgleda deka sepak ne ja poznavate emigracijata koku sto si mislite. Ne >postoi takva podelba. No znam sto sakata da kazete: tie pred 1944 se >Bugari, tie posle se Makedonci (so izmien mozok, se razbira). There are plenty of US documents pointing exactly to this shift in Macedonian immigration to North America. Before WW II Macedonians (coming mostly from Aegean and Vardar Macedonia) were declaring themselves as Bulgarian by nationality. An excerpt from an American Encyclopedia (of Minorities or something like that) in that sense was posted couple of years ago by Mr. Vasil Babamov to Usenet. He still might have the file (I might have saved it as well). This is a Fact. So what ? >Edna rabota >ne mi e jasna g. Dimov. Ako ni go 'izmile' mozokot vo 1944 (so isklucok >na Vas i slicni na Vas) i nie veleime deka sme Makedonci, togas zosto Vie >ne kazuvate deka ste Bugari? Neli vas ne Vi e izmien mozokot, a i ja >'znaete' vistinata, kako sto sam go velite. Simply Mr. Dimov's claim to be Macedonian is not based on fallacies. He knows the Truth and makes an informed choice to be Macedonian. This does not contradict with his understanding that we (Bulgarians and Macedonians) have common roots. So what ? >I dokazavte deka vo Makedonija nemase Makedonci tuku site bea Bugari. >Neli taka? A zosto ima lugje vo Grcija i Bugarija koi velat deke ne se >Bugari ami Makedonci i koi niv im go izmil mozokot e prasanje koe nikoj >od vas Bugarite ne mozel da mi odgovori. Again Slavko presents untrue speculations. There were plenty if discussions why "pure" Macedonians do exist in nowadays Greece and Bulgaria. Just for those who don't know my humble opinion (Slavko is not one of them :-)), here are some thoughts (and possible answers). In the case of Bulgaria, there was a period of state sponsored "Macedonization" after WW II when Bulgarians from Macedonia along with Comintern directives were "given offer they could not reject". Teachers from Yugoslavia came to teach the kids "Macedonian language" :-) Valuable historical documents were shipped to Skopje (and it seems that many of them got destroyed there while others were used to re-write history of Macedonia). Even the remainings of legendary Gotse Delchev were not spared and moved to Skopje. While the official policy of Communist Bulgaria was changed after Tito's break up with the Soviet Union, the Bulgarian Communist Party was always reluctant (at least domestically) to open discussions on the Macedonian question since those would inevitably expose the anti-Bulgarian role of the Communist leader Georgi Dimitrov. I would expect at least some "leftovers" from the period of Macedonization in Bulgaria to exist. It seems that such "dissidents" were also sponsored by Yugoslav authorities (what better way to prove the existence of a Macedonian nation !). Although I have not seen this info confirmed by independent sources, it seems the leaders of nowadays Macedonist organizations in Bulgaria were on payroll at the Yugoslav embassy in Sofia - officially, "to take care of Serb tombs on the territory of Bulgaria". In the case of Greece, IMHO, the decline of the Bulgarianism of the Aegean Macedonian Slavs is due in the first place to the lack of support for them on behalf of Bulgaria (while Tito was offering them that kind of support esp. during the Civil War). It suffices to give the example of "Deca begalci" (Kids refugees) who were turned down at the Bulgarian border (by God knows whose instruction) but were taken care of elsewhere... (A really shameful act of Bulgarian commies :-(.) Add to that the almost complete lack of contacts with Bulgarians and Bulgaria later and a pretty broad contacts with Yugoslavia and Yugoslavs. Still, according to people who visited different communities in Aegean Macedonia and with whom I have talked to, a significant part of Macedonian Slavs (esp. elderly people) have Bulgarian identity. We should not miss Albania in those discussions as well. While Slav- Macedonians communities closer to the border with RoM seem to have a non-Bulgarian identity, many others who are more isolated from external influence still have their Bulgarian consciousness. They now ask for Bulgarian schools to be established in their villages. I hope I have answered most of the questions and much more deliberations are not needed. Best regards to all readers of MAKEDON, Plamen Plamen.Bliznakov@ASU.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 11:27:33 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Perica Babanovski Subject: The Truth, The (W)Hole Truth and Nothing but The Truth (So help us God) Plamen, I'm deeply sorry that this discussion disturbed you. In the name of all the people from Macedonia (after reading your message I'm not sure what name I should use), I want to thank you for opening our eyes and sharing The Truth with us. I hope your message can help all of us, who were exposed to the brain-washing mechanism in RoM, to understand The Truth. >I really resent the attempt of Slavko etc. to bring the atmosphere of >intolerance existing on alt.news.macedonia into MAKEDON L. Shame on you, Slavko. I hope it won't happen again. >Right in the beginning to avoid any misunderstandings I want to state clearly >that I respect the right of Macedonians to have their own identity. I am _not_ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >claiming that all Macedonians nowadays are merely another brand of Bulgarians ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >since to me a nationality of a person is what he/she claims to be. > (big cut) >To me there is nothing stronger than The Truth. People like Slavko are >trying to put Macedonians against The Truth, which means trying to make >fools out of Macedonians and a loosing cause out of the idea of the separate >Macedonian identity. You cannot build a strong building by putting sand >into its foundation. You cannot build a strong idea by putting lies >into its foundation, since sooner or later those lies will start showing >up and the whole idea will be downgraded to baloney. Thank you again for sharing The Truth with us. (another cut) >Sure anyone (no matter who - Bulgarian, Greek, etc.) who claims to be >Macedonian is Macedonian. You yourself demand to be referred to as >Macedonian (not even "Slav-Macedonian") based on your own perception of >yourself. Why would you deny the same right to anyone else ? Plamen, please let me know what the definition for the "Nation" is. Ooops, pardon me, again, brain-wash. What that word has to do with the word "Macedonian"? > >Here is another example of Slavko's perverted logic. Everyone who claims >to be "pure" Macedonian is good, no matter if he/she is a Communist criminal >or not. > Good label. "Communist criminal". Good way to go. I have to write this down, it might be useful sometime. >There are plenty of US documents pointing exactly to this shift in Macedonian >immigration to North America. Before WW II Macedonians (coming mostly from >Aegean and Vardar Macedonia) were declaring themselves as Bulgarian by >nationality. An excerpt from an American Encyclopedia (of Minorities or >something like that) in that sense was posted couple of years ago by Mr. Vasil >Babamov to Usenet. He still might have the file (I might have saved it as >well). This is a Fact. So what ? > >Simply Mr. Dimov's claim to be Macedonian is not based on fallacies. He knows >the Truth and makes an informed choice to be Macedonian. This does not >contradict with his understanding that we (Bulgarians and Macedonians) have >common roots. So what ? > Yes, we all have a common roots. If we follow the Darwin's theory, it goes a way back to ... (BTW, save the orangutans from Borneo and the African Gorilla). >Again Slavko presents untrue speculations. There were plenty if discussions >why "pure" Macedonians do exist in nowadays Greece and Bulgaria. Just for >those who don't know my humble opinion (Slavko is not one of them :-)), here >are some thoughts (and possible answers). > >In the case of Bulgaria, there was a period of state sponsored "Macedonization" >after WW II when Bulgarians from Macedonia along with Comintern directives were >"given offer they could not reject". Teachers from Yugoslavia came to teach the >kids "Macedonian language" :-) Valuable historical documents were shipped to >Skopje (and it seems that many of them got destroyed there while others were >used to re-write history of Macedonia). Even the remainings of legendary Gotse >Delchev were not spared and moved to Skopje. While the official policy of >Communist Bulgaria was changed after Tito's break up with the Soviet Union, the >Bulgarian Communist Party was always reluctant (at least domestically) to open >discussions on the Macedonian question since those would inevitably expose the >anti-Bulgarian role of the Communist leader Georgi Dimitrov. I would expect at >least some "leftovers" from the period of Macedonization in Bulgaria to exist. Bloody Commies. (C) What a shameful, disgusting betray of the (great)Bulgarian national interests. And poor Goce Delcev, the biggest son in the history of mother Bulgaria. Even his death was used against his mother Bulgaria. >It seems that such "dissidents" were also sponsored by Yugoslav authorities >(what better way to prove the existence of a Macedonian nation !). Although I >have not seen this info confirmed by independent sources, it seems the leaders >of nowadays Macedonist organizations in Bulgaria were on payroll at the >Yugoslav embassy in Sofia - officially, "to take care of Serb tombs on the >territory of Bulgaria". What a conspiracy!!! BTW, who is paying these days the activity of those "nowadays Macedonist organizations", Belgrade or Skopje? Or, the center of the conspiracy is somewhere else, e.g., Washington D.C.? Maybe it's a dirty game of the rotten capitalism (another label)? >In the case of Greece, IMHO, the decline of the Bulgarianism of the Aegean >Macedonian Slavs is due in the first place to the lack of support for them on >behalf of Bulgaria (while Tito was offering them that kind of support esp. >during the Civil War). It suffices to give the example of "Deca begalci" (Kids >refugees) who were turned down at the Bulgarian border (by God knows whose >instruction) but were taken care of elsewhere... (A really shameful act of >Bulgarian commies :-(.) Bloody Commies (C) (again). To turn down their own people, to allow them to be assimilated and brain-washed by the enemies, their national identity to get lost. Whatta shame. >Add to that the almost complete lack of contacts with >Bulgarians and Bulgaria later and a pretty broad contacts with Yugoslavia and >Yugoslavs. Still, according to people who visited different communities in >Aegean Macedonia and with whom I have talked to, a significant part of >Macedonian Slavs (esp. elderly people) have Bulgarian identity. > >We should not miss Albania in those discussions as well. While Slav- >Macedonians communities closer to the border with RoM seem to have a >non-Bulgarian identity, many others who are more isolated from external >influence still have their Bulgarian consciousness. They now ask for Bulgarian >schools to be established in their villages. Thanks God, the situation is changing. Won't you be happy to see Ohrid again as part of mother Bulgaria? The "pearl of Balkan", place where the Bulgarian culture started centuries ago. That will be a day, won't it? >I hope I have answered most of the questions and much more deliberations are >not needed. Thank you, thank you hundred times. I feel much better now, after I realized The Truth. You opened my eyes, Plamen. > >Best regards to all readers of MAKEDON, > >Plamen >Plamen.Bliznakov@ASU.edu God help you Perica P.S. Just a short question: have you tried to get some information from your Macedonian friends that came in US last few years, or they are all brain-washed and don't know The Truth, so you are stick to the Macedonians who are here for a longer time and know The Truth that is convenient for you. I know that you are interested to know more about Macedonia. You read very much, but I'm just wondering if you are picky about the books that you read or not. Do you read some of the books printed out of Macedonia that might tell something opposite of The Truth? Or you don't waste your time for books financed by the Skopje/Belgrade brain-washing mechanism. See y'a around. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 13:34:18 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: QUESTION Alex, I'll check w/ my wife to see if she can make your listed desserts. Do you have the recipe for "Boza" and if it's not too long could you post it? In exchange I'll give you my secret recipe for a "bourbon sour" made from Kentucky corn squeezins' (i.e., Kentucky sour mash whiskey) with oranges! In the meantime my wife is looking up her recipe for the breast of chicken dessert (!!) called "kaochuk" or something like that (I assume the word is probably of Turkic origin) and I'll post it later. Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 On Wed, 23 Nov 1994, Aleksandar Aleksov wrote: > Hi ( zdravo ), > > > > I think they're called "bakers" if they bake whether desserts (we > > don't call them sweets, that's "English English" not "American English". > > I don't know what the Canadians call them, Alex. > > We don't have the wonderful variety of "sweets" you do in the > > Balkans or in Central Europe (especially Vienna!) The "kadaif" and > > baklava and galactoburiko and a special dessert with a long Turkish > > name made out of chicken of all things--something like Kaochuk--is really > > enough to make one take off for the Balkans. > > > > -- > > Glen D. Camp > > Professor of Political Science > > Bryant College > > 401-232-6246 > > > > > thank's! I just miseed the word. Yes kadaif and baklava are great, don't > forget tulumbi, ekleri, ishleri and the best of all Boza ( it's a drink ). > There is no drink like Boza, but one has to get used to the taste ( it took > me 10 years to do so ). But when you do, you'll dream of it. > Cheers > Alex > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 20:33:32 GMT+3 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zhidas Daskalovski Subject: Re: The Bulgarians speak Plamen wrote: >Again Slavko presents untrue speculations. There were plenty if discussions >why "pure" Macedonians do exist in nowadays Greece and Bulgaria. Just for >those who don't know my humble opinion (Slavko is not one of them :-)), here >are some thoughts (and possible answers). >In the case of Bulgaria, there was a period of state sponsored "Macedonization" >after WW II when Bulgarians from Macedonia along with Comintern directives were >"given offer they could not reject". Teachers from Yugoslavia came to teach the >kids "Macedonian language" :-) Valuable historical documents were shipped to >Skopje (and it seems that many of them got destroyed there while others were >used to re-write history of Macedonia). Even the remainings of legendary Gotse >Delchev were not spared and moved to Skopje. While the official policy of >Communist Bulgaria was changed after Tito's break up with the Soviet Union, the >Bulgarian Communist Party was always reluctant (at least domestically) to open >discussions on the Macedonian question since those would inevitably expose the >anti-Bulgarian role of the Communist leader Georgi Dimitrov. I would expect at >least some "leftovers" from the period of Macedonization in Bulgaria to exist. >It seems that such "dissidents" were also sponsored by Yugoslav authorities >(what better way to prove the existence of a Macedonian nation !). Although I >have not seen this info confirmed by independent sources, it seems the leaders >of nowadays Macedonist organizations in Bulgaria were on payroll at the >Yugoslav embassy in Sofia - officially, "to take care of Serb tombs on the >territory of Bulgaria". Where you write from man? Have you ever been to Bulgari and especially to the Pirin part? Have you ever had the chance to meet some of the "dissidents" and hear their stories. Have you ever reed the "Narodna Volja" or "Skornuvanje, or you just Macedonian Tribune and the Makedonija? Please do not talk lies concerning the Macedonians in Pirin Macedonia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 13:40:33 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: UN: one, two, three or four... Thanks for your post, Lubi. Also thanks for welcoming me as a guest to your List. As to "callous remarks" I think you might have mistaken my ignorance for "callousness" which I hope your now recognize was absolutely not intended. Let's drop this "thread" now and become friends and colleagues. Any comments you have or suggestions will be gratefully received--I just hope you realize that I'm fairly new to the Balkans (except for Greece and Turkey) and there are a lot of sensitive areas I still have to learn about (with your help--I hope). Odnapred blagodaram pozdrav od Glen -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 On Tue, 22 Nov 1994, Lubi Uzunovski wrote: > in Message-Id: <9411221000.AA05416@portnoy.canrem.com> > Glen Camp writes, > > >I don't quite understand your post, Lubi. So far as I know the > >woman who taught my wife Macedonian was a fine person. I'm not sure > >what kind of Macedonian she was and it really seems irrelevant since > >learning is a value in and of itself. > > On the one hand, there is no point in pursing a question whose > answer I already know. On the other, reference to the value of > learning aside, I'm not sure I appreciate your public > experimentations with my ethnos. While I do not deny your right > to speak frankly, that doesn't mean that I appreciate some of your > more callous remarks. > > The woman who taught your wife Macedonian is the same as the woman > who taught me Macedonian. She was not a "Greek-Macedonian", nor a > "Slav-Macedonian" nor a "Bulgarian-Macedonian". I would consider > it a courtesy if you would be more thoughtful before you claim > again that there are various forms of Macedonians. There is but > one variety of the Macedonian ethnos. "Greek-Macedonians" and > "Bulgarian-Macedonians" may or may not be ethnic Macedonians, so > let's not become entangled by careless rhetoric. It is too easy > to become confused when referring to an ethnic Macedonian from > Greece versus an ethnic Greek from Macedonia. Think how you > might feel if you came from a place where the authority in > power spent the better part of the day forcing you not to exist. > > >Sarcasm on or off seems to me to be a bit counterproductive to a > >useful discussion of the RoM's serious issues which I have been > >privileged to share on this group. I hope we can avoid personal > >animosities or "flames" since they hurt people's feelings and strike > >me as unhelpful. I gather that you have very sensitive feelings and > >shall try not to hurt them. I ask only that you treat me the same > >way. > > Perhaps I have become more sensitive lately, and perhaps you were > somewhat insensitive in your initial remarks. In any case I > certainly didn't intend the message I sent you to be considered as > flame bait. I'm grateful for your participation in this > conference - it adds an objectivity, and dimension that many of us here > simply cannot offer. You are wholly welcome here, to say your > peace or argue if choose to disagree. I have no axe to grind with you, > I merely wanted to let you know that I was having difficulty with some > of your comments. > > > Lubi > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 13:49:00 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: The Bulgarians speak Plamen, I sending this post to your personally to thank you for your *very* thoughtful post despite what appears (I had trouble reading it since it was in Macedonian) to have been an unjustified flame. I hope you won't desert the MAKEDON List just because of one flame. Many of us need your thoughtful comments, at least *I* do! pozdrav Glen -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 21:32:06 GMT Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: M Petkovski Subject: The Bulgarian TRUTH > On Wednesday November 23, Plamen Bliznakov wrote: > > Right in the beginning to avoid any misunderstandings I want to state clearly > that I respect the right of Macedonians to have their own identity. I am _not_ > claiming that all Macedonians nowadays are merely another brand of Bulgarians > since to me a nationality of a person is what he/she claims to be. > Dear Plamen, nashi, vashi & everybody else on the list I like the above quotation. Once you opened your letter that way, everything else you said was an objective view, i.e. fighting for The Truth. I presume that The Truth in this case are various documents showing that in turkish times and even before the WW2 a significant part of the Macedonian people declared themselves or even feeled as Bulgarians. > There are plenty of US documents pointing exactly to this shift in Macedonian > immigration to North America. Before WW II Macedonians (coming mostly from > Aegean and Vardar Macedonia) were declaring themselves as Bulgarian by > nationality. ..... This is a Fact. So what ? This is not The Truth. It could only be a truth, like any other. So far it's OK. But than, look what you have said: > In the case of Bulgaria, there was a period of state sponsored "Macedonization" > after WW II when Bulgarians from Macedonia along with Comintern directives were > "given offer they could not reject". Teachers from Yugoslavia came to teach the > kids "Macedonian language" :-) I am sorry but it is really difficult to buy this. It is silly enough to believe that we - the people in the than newly established NRM - were forced by the Serbs to turn into Macs, after they had spent 30 yrs beating up our Grandpa's in order to turn them into Serbs. But to believe in a theory that a part of the bulgarian population was chosen to be turned into Macs - that is a bit too much, you must agree. And, as if it was not enough, you went even further: > .....While the official policy of Communist Bulgaria was changed > after Tito's break up with the Soviet Union, the > Bulgarian Communist Party was always reluctant (at least domestically) > to open discussions on the Macedonian question since those would > inevitably expose the anti-Bulgarian role of the Communist leader > Georgi Dimitrov. I would expect at least some "leftovers" from the > period of Macedonization in Bulgaria to exist..... So, the relatively short campaign of the BG-traitor Georgi, appeared to be a such a great success, that Todor & his Orchestra (proven BG-patriots), couldn't reverse the outcome although we all know how hard they were working on it over some 30 years. And don't tell me they didn't have (or hesitated to use) appropriate means/methods to work on one's faith in The Truth. I am not defending our commies, but compared to Todorche & his brain-washing machine, they looked like a bunch of suckers. Now, having sorted out this, we can go back to the truth and to The Truth itself. If we agreed that the real docs were published in Sofia and the same were forged in Skopje (nobody argues that Kolishevich was an ignorant motherfucker and that Konjoski was doing jobs for him) we didn't come any closer to the truth. The BG-church joined by the entire BG establishment later, was present in Mac for a long, long time. And it was time when it really counted: when people trusted priests, when the religion was far more important than the nation (as far as the Turks were concerned, there were no Macs, no Bulgs, only "gjaurs"). Of course, the Greeks were also about, but we couldn't understand their language and what exactly wanted from us. Their tradittionally good friends were also messing around and managed to turn some people into Srbomans. I think they weren't ambitious enough - being weaker than BG at that time, they couldn't even dream to win parts of Macedonia. Hanging around the tables when big gamblers are playing, sometimes is a usefull thing. Summary: (1) The Truth is also a result of a long and well organised brainwash (2) There are Macs-Bugarofils, Macs-Srbomans, even Macs-Grkomans (these are also known as masochists), but there is no such thing as Bulgarian-Macedonian or Greek-Macedonian, I mean among the common Macs, of course. There is a significent difference between Mac-Smtgs and Smtg-Macedonian. Being a Mac-Blfil basically means that you can't stand The Tradittionally Good Friends. And vice-verus. Being a BLG-Mac means denying the whole Mac Nation - claiming that they are all brainwashed Bulgs. Being GrMac means denying us common Macs alltogether - leaving it to us to decide whether to be brainwashed Srbs or Bulgs, whichever we feel less painfull. > We should not miss Albania in those discussions as well. While Slav- > Macedonians communities closer to the border with RoM seem to have a > non-Bulgarian identity, many others who are more isolated from external > influence still have their Bulgarian consciousness. They now ask for Bulgarian > schools to be established in their villages. That is what I call isolation. Perhaps they haven't even heard that their fellow Macs have got their own state now (they'll be surprised that the sultan is gone, too). On the other hand we had limitless posibilities to go over and convert the Bulgs across the Alb border into hard-core Macs. I'm sure you wouldn't find all this offensive, Plamen. Eden Pozdrav od Mihail -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mihail Petkovski, University of Sheffield, Department of Civil & Structural Engineering, Mappin Street, Sheffield S1 4DU, UK Tel. (0114) 2825 071; Fax. (0114) 2728 910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 23:19:15 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: Re: The Bulgarians speak Plamen, You were one of the reasonable and inteligent guys on Internet. But this last post of yours really surprised me. I think you are getting into trouble, man. I noticed the same symptoms in N.Valkanas when he started preaching the TRUTH on a.n.m. Will you "truthlovers", once and for all, learn how to love your "truths" without forcing everybody else to accept them? And will you stop searching for all these different teories and reasons WHY someone doesn't accept The Truth of yours? Just get of my back, man, and let me worry whom do I have "common rooths" with. Thanks for the suggestions, though. You dissapointed me, man. Cheers, Zoran ;^) P.S. Did you read my response to A. Dimov on a.n.m.? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 15:46:54 GMT+900 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Peter Matevski Organization: Business, Uni Of Technology,Sydney Subject: Macedonians only Fellow Macedonians, I am sick to death of listening to this irrelevent and totally fucken up bulgarian Plamen. If he wants to preach his bullshit about Macedonians being Bulgarian, well good for him! However, he should be given praise for his thoughts. He should be told to get the fuck off our mailing list and join the greek, serbian and albanian mailing groups where they can tell as much bullshit as they want!!!!! Our people have constantly been feed propaganda and we simply take it on the chin. Well, I feel I should at least give a truly macedonain reply, fuck your bulgarian country and its people!!! Later Peter Matevski Later, Peter Matevski ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 23:59:00 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Lubi Uzunovski Organization: CRS Online (Toronto, Ontario) Subject: UN: one, two, three, or four in Message-Id: <9411231921.AA13883@portnoy.canrem.com> Glen Camp wrote, >Thanks for your post, Lubi. Also thanks for welcoming me as a >guest to your List. Well, I believe it's people like Mr. Shopov and Mr. Konecni who made and keep this list going. They're the ones who deserve the thanks of those of us who use it. There's no need to thank me, in fact it's I who should be thanking people like you and Andy for showing an interest in things Macedonian. >As to "callous remarks" I think you might have mistaken my ignorance >for "callousness" which I hope your now recognize was absolutely not >intended. It would seem that I mistook your post as something other than what it was intended to be. I am sensitive about the issue of my ethnicity and how it is being exploited by some in order to score political points. I felt compelled to respond to your post, although I see no profit in continuing along that tack. >Let's drop this "thread" now and become friends and colleagues. Consider it dropped. The fact that you take the time to participate in this group goes a long way toward recommending you. This conference contains a variety of personalities and sometimes it's inevitable that people's toes get stepped on... after all, you can't please all the people all the time :) >Any comments you have or suggestions will be gratefully received I suggest that you speak freely about things that you find interesting. There really are no hard and fast rules. You obviously don't need me to tell you how to behave, in fact I think your behaviour sets a good example. If I, or anyone else, want to respond to your postings then we'll respond. Though sometimes we may come across as being rude or abrupt, it really isn't intended as a personal slight... so we'll just get to know each other better as we go along. >Odnapred blagodaram >pozdrav od Glen Spolaiti nogu, Glen, za tvoiata poraka, Lubi U. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 00:04:00 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Lubi Uzunovski Organization: CRS Online (Toronto, Ontario) Subject: The Bulgarian Speak in Message-Id: <9411231156.AA18932@portnoy.canrem.com> Plamen Bliznakov >There are plenty of US documents pointing exactly to this shift in >Macedonian immigration to North America. Before WW II Macedonians >(coming mostly from Aegean and Vardar Macedonia) were declaring >themselves as Bulgarian by nationality. An excerpt from an American >Encyclopedia (of Minorities or something like that) in that sense >was posted couple of years ago by Mr. Vasil Babamov to Usenet. He >still might have the file (I might have saved it as well). This is >a Fact. So what ? Plamen, I've never known a Bulgarian such as you before. You spend a great deal of your time among Macedonians lecturing them on the "fact" that they are not Macedonians but rather Bulgarians. I have no idea what you hope to achieve, or what it is that you are searching for but with an attitute such as yours I'm skeptical that you'll ever succeed. This new stuff is too simple to be coming from you. I've learned to expect better. My great-great grandfathers and my great grandfathers came to the "New World" before the Ilinden Uprising. They came with Ottoman Empire passports although they were by no means Turks. After the partitioning my great-aunt came to Canada with a Serbian passport. My mother's sister who spent 11 years in Bulgaria returned to Macedonia with a Bulgarian passport. My uncles and aunts in Aegean Macedonia all came with Greek passports. I came with a Yugoslav passport. Not bad for one family, and I'm certainly not alone! You should see the variations in our names. The only common thread here is that we all refer to ourselves only as Macedonians. Not Ottoman Turks, not Bulgarians, Not Serbs, not Greeks and not Yugoslavs... just Makedontsi. Your argument is commonly used by Greece and Bulgaria as a way of saying, "see, they use X passports, therefore they must be X. There are no Macedonians here". Of course, the Macedonians are never given a choice in the matter. In any case, I'm not sure that my great-great grandfathers can be considered the product of post -Titoist Macedonism. Lubi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 03:14:37 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: UN: one, two, three, or four I look forward to it very much, Lubi. Pozdrav. Glen -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 09:58:27 GMT Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: M Petkovski Subject: Re: Macedonians only > From: Peter Matevski Peter wrote (i ziv ostana): > > Fellow Macedonians, > > I am sick to death of listening to this irrelevent > and totally fucken up bulgarian Plamen. If he wants to preach his > bullshit about Macedonians being Bulgarian, well good for him! > However, he should be given praise for his thoughts. He should be > told to get the fuck off our mailing list and join the greek, serbian > and albanian mailing groups where they can tell as much bullshit as > they want!!!!! > > Our people have constantly been feed propaganda and we simply take it > on the chin. Well, I feel I should at least give a truly macedonain > reply, fuck your bulgarian country and its people!!! > > Later > > Peter Matevski To Plamen particularly, but also to Glen, A.T. Fear and all Non-Macs reading this: I can't remember the last time I was ashamed of being a Mac. Well, this is one of those occasions. To Peter: Peter, please don't use words "our" and "we" in your fuck-off letters. Mihail -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mihail Petkovski, University of Sheffield, Department of Civil & Structural Engineering, Mappin Street, Sheffield S1 4DU, UK Tel. (0114) 2825 071; Fax. (0114) 2728 910 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 12:51:32 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: QUES --> Boza In-Reply-To: <9411231908.AA24114@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Glen Camp" at Nov 23, 94 01:34:18 pm Zdravo Glen ( i.e. Ave Glen ), > Alex, I'll check w/ my wife to see if she can make your listed > desserts. Do you have the recipe for "Boza" and if it's not too long > could you post it? > In exchange I'll give you my secret recipe for a "bourbon sour" > made from Kentucky corn squeezins' (i.e., Kentucky sour mash whiskey) > with oranges! > In the meantime my wife is looking up her recipe for the breast > of chicken dessert (!!) called "kaochuk" or something like that (I assume > the word is probably of Turkic origin) and I'll post it later. > Glen D. Camp Oh god, Glen I wish I would have the recipe for Boza. I could ask my mom, but I'm shure she has no idea, but at least she could give me the ingridients. I think it is made out of wheat and .... ( I miss the english word for it, the latin name is saharomyces cervisae, you know those little heterotroph plants that can convert sugar into c2h5oh - alkohol ) and something else. But it is nonalkoholic. I guess it will be hard to make it at home, because i think you can make only a larger amount of it ( let's say 50-100 liters ). Those little plants .... are used to ( Hell I'm not a brewer I just miss the words, the german word would be Gearen ). So part of the sugar is converted into co2, creating h2co3. So it's a refreshing drink. There is nothing better than to drink a glass of boza on a hot day. That cools down. Boza tastes sweet, sour or something like that. It is a very specific taste, so as I said one has to get used to it ( if one is able to swallow the first couple of glasses ( bottles )). Good idea to send ower the recipe for "bourbon sour" and "kou..whatever". Tshuess ( i.e. bye ) Alex P.S. next time I'll take an english ( A.E. if possible ) dictionary with me. There is somewhere something like an electronic dict. on this machines, but where ? Must find that one too. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 10:11:46 -0600 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Sasho Kalajdzievski Subject: Re: Macedonians only In-Reply-To: <9411241523.AA13038@rigel.cc.umanitoba.ca> On Thu, 24 Nov 1994, Peter Matevski wrote: > Fellow Macedonians, [del] > > on the chin. Well, I feel I should at least give a truly macedonain > reply, fuck your bulgarian country and its people!!! How miserable. I request that this person apologizes or be removed from the list. > > Later > > Peter Matevski > Sasho ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 11:20:49 GMT+900 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Peter Matevski Organization: Business, Uni Of Technology,Sydney Subject: Why should I apologise? If some people were offended by my radical remarks, well tough. I don't believe I should show any compassion for his race or any other races which border our nation. They have never ever given our people any respect! Hence, why should I ? I have received many numerous replies underlining that I should apologise and never use we or our people when writing such a letter. This in my view is a fundamental problem with some so-called Macedonians. They seem to believe that Serbians, Greeks and Bulgarians alike are human. Well, I'm afraid I have to bring some of u back to reality, there are animals. They still even today deny our existence in all presently occupied regions of Macedonia. They have demonstrated in millions against our people, which to me proves that their views are not ones held by a small portion of their ignorant people. While, in Australia they had the nerve to burn our churches, and then some of u so-called macedonians want me to apologise. Never, never and never! I am extremely disappointed (u can kick me off, I don't care, if this is the view shared) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 21:12:48 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: QUES --> Boza In case you do better in German than English on recipes, du kannst mir leicht auf Deutsch erwedern! I'll post the Bourbon sour recipe as soon as I can get my wife to dictate it! Pozdrav, Glen -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 21:15:35 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: The Bulgarians speak In-Reply-To: <199411231200.HAA30809@tequesta.gate.net> On Wed, 23 Nov 1994, Plamen Bliznakov wrote: > I really resent the attempt of Slavko etc. to bring the atmosphere of > intolerance existing on alt.news.macedonia into MAKEDON L. I really appreciate > the (mostly) constructive spirit existing on MAKEDON (which is the reason I > completely stopped reading things on a.n.m. for quite some time until today). Intolerance? What is this intolerance you are talking about, Plamen? I have almost shown the utmost tolerance to all. There are exceptions, though, and that's what you are probably reffering to: I could never stand, what we Macedonians call "prodadeni dushi" i.e. those who are working for foreign interests in Macedonia. God knows our land suffered as no other, and most of the credit for that goes to these kind of people. > > Moreover, Slavko is trying to start a dispute with a person who does not > subscribe (as far as I know) to this mailing list Hmm, I was merely trying to make the discussion in public, as it should be done. I think that we can all learn from it. I had no idea the person is not a subscriber. But that doesn't really matter that much since you are able to substitute him nicely and I'm sure you can forward him all messages. (which itself is pretty > cowardly). Cowerdly? I see that you have abandoned your newly devised strategy called "so kroce, so blago" and decided on a frontal attack. Is this a new strtategy though? But let me explain to our readers what is this strategy. Seeing that direct affronts like "You are Bulgarians" makes Macedonians puke, as nicely put by one of our fellow netters, you have decided to try "so kroce, so blago" i.e. using historical documents totry and convince educated Macedonians that they have been always Bulgarians. That the strategy has born fruit, we can all see with Mr. Dimov's example. How the strategy works, we can see below.. I intentionally ignored a couple of those postings, yet it seems > without a reply the hysteria would keep on going. I really hope this thread > would quickly die out (I myself have neither the time nor the interest to keep > it going). I intentionally give a single (although longish) reply rather > than blow it into several shorter answers. This way whoever is not interested > in the subject could easier skip my message. > > Right in the beginning to avoid any misunderstandings I want to state clearly > that I respect the right of Macedonians to have their own identity. Rule #1. Always tell them that you respect them to be Macedonians. They'll like you for that. I am _not_ > claiming that all Macedonians nowadays are merely another brand of Bulgarians > since to me a nationality of a person is what he/she claims to be. > Rule #2 Always through in some crap about everybody's right to be what they want. They'll like you even more. > What strikes me however in this case is the attitude of Slavko (and it seems he > is not alone). You bet I'm not. We're several million, give or take 30,000 'Bulgarophiles' according to Mr. Ilievski. He is upset about The Truth. Upset? Truth? Are we entering the realms of phylosophy? Which truth are we talking about now. The Bulgarian one? He is not angry that Daniel > Veljanovski posted to a.n.m. excerpts from a "doctored" Carnegie report and as > a result ridiculed in public himself and the idea of a distinct Macedonian > nationality. By another 'Macedonian', I have to point out. No, Slavko seems himself to have been posting well clipped and > taken out of context documents quite a bit recently. Yes, my "history" series, all lies fabricated in our specially designed "Lie Factories". World famous, modeled after your "Macedonian Scientific Institute" and similar "factories" in your territory. On the contrary, Slavko > is upset that Mr. Dimov found out the discrepancies between the edition > published in Skopje Published in Skopje? You should read more carefully your friends postings: he said that there was a copy of the report in Skopje but he couldn't obtain it. (used obviously by Daniel) and hinted about them in public > (which led someone else to post excerpts from the actual text). In Slavko's > perverted logic dissipating a lie is OK as far as this lie is "good" (according > to Slavko's view) and not subscribing to a "good" lie is bad. According to the > same perverted logic a person revealing The Truth is a "cancer" in the body of > Macedonia... I would say, "Poor body with such a doctor..." > Not the Truth. The people who subscribe to such truths. BTW how do you know that your Truth is the right one? Perhaps your communits govt. have deceived you, perhaps our Truth is the right one, perhaps the truths are many... > On Tue, 22 Nov 1994 mango@GATE.NET wrote: > > >Vie, g. Dimov, a i slicnite kako Vas, ste kako 'rak' vo teloto na > >Makedonija. Vie im sluzite na Bugarskite interesi vo Makedonija i ja > >pretsavuvate 'pettata kolona' koja ke gi doceka 'osloboditelite' ako > >slucajno Makedonija se destabilizira, so cvekinja i otvoreni race. > >Lugjeto kako Vas se noz vo grbot na site Makedonci koi se borat za svoite > >prava vo Grcija i Bugarija. Edinstvena uteha e deka takvi kako Vas se > >mnogu malku. > > >No mozam da go vidam, bidejki jas gladam kon rabotite so makedonski oci a > >Vie so bugarski. I se razbira, mojata cel e jasna: promocija i zastita na > >Makedonskiet interesi vo svetot. A i Vasata e jasna: promocija i zastita > >na Bugasrkite interesi vo svetot. A dali moite ili Vasite se nezavisni... > >Toa se gleda i od Vasite izjavi: 100% identicni so tie na Bugarite: nema > >Makedonci, site sme Bugari; onie sto ne se slozuvaat so toa se > >'srbomani'. > > To Slavko a fellow Macedonian is a "Bulgarian agent" just because he speaks > out defending a historical Truth. And what is that Truth, Plamen? There were no Macedonians before 1944, we are all brainwashed. Well, let me tell you, my dear: we were never Bulgarians, and that is because of one simple fact: our popular traditions are not Bulgarian but Macedonian. Even traitors like Mihajlov and Aleksandrov, and the todays MPO, talked about Macedonia and not Bulgaria, you know why? Because our people would've never fought about Bulgaria, but they always fought about Macedonia. It is pretty hypocritical to hear such > accusations from someone who is trying to talk about human rights of > Macedonians, freedom of the consciousness, etc. As far as Mr. Dimov claiming > that all Macedonians are nothing more than Bulgarians - I was not able to > find out anything like that neither in Slavko's forwarded message, nor > in a.n.m. postings I still have on my news-server. Moreover, Angel Dimov > calls himself Macedonian. Come on, Plamen, you're insulting our intelligence now. We all know what he meant. How would he do it if there were no Macedonians > according to him ? > Simple: all Macedonians are actually Bulgarians, right? > To me there is nothing stronger than The Truth. People like Slavko are > trying to put Macedonians against The Truth, which means trying to make > fools out of Macedonians and a loosing cause out of the idea of the separate > Macedonian identity. You cannot build a strong building by putting sand > into its foundation. You cannot build a strong idea by putting lies > into its foundation, since sooner or later those lies will start showing > up and the whole idea will be downgraded to baloney. > Well, thank you so much Plamen. Without you we wouldn't have known what to do. > >On Sat, 19 Nov 1994, Slavko Mangovski wrote: > > > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 04:56:47 UTC > >> From: Angel Dimov > >> > >> Nashi po mene se site Makedonci. > > > >Site Makedonci. Dobro, ajde da vidimi koi se tie 'site'. Dali na primer > >se Makedonci i Bugarite ili Grcite koi velat deka se Makedonci? > > Sure anyone (no matter who - Bulgarian, Greek, etc.) who claims to be > Macedonian is Macedonian. You yourself demand to be referred to as > Macedonian (not even "Slav-Macedonian") based on your own perception of > yourself. Why would you deny the same right to anyone else ? > I won't dare to deny anybody anything. I'll be pissed though when somebody is mocking my ethnicity and claims to be what I am. > It strikes me that you try to deny the right of Mr. Angel Dimov to call > himself "Macedonian" and try to _accuse_ him of being "Bulgarian" even though > he explained well enough he was born in what is today Republic of Macedonia, > baptized in a church in Skopje, and has never been to Bulgaria. Again, I don't deny anybody anything. But, the above fits nicely your theories as who the Macedonians are. And if we have many people like Mr. Dimov our name won't matter anymore since we'll become Western Bulgaria in no time. same time Slavko in some of his messages self-identifies himself as an > American. So who is more Macedonian ? > You sure know who. > >> Site crveni se isti, po mene. Tuka nema nashi i nivni. Po mene, > >> site se nivni. Na tebe e da reshish da li ke zastanesh so niv ili ne. > > > >Jas sekogas ke zastanam so Makedonci, bez obzir na boite. > > Here is another example of Slavko's perverted logic. Everyone who claims > to be "pure" Macedonian is good, no matter if he/she is a Communist criminal > or not. > You got that right. Colors don't interest me. > >> Makedonskata emigracija vo svetot e jasno podelena na onaja > >> dojdena pred-1944 i post-1944. Tova e istorijski fakt. Za prichinite > >> mozheme da diskutirame. > > > >Izgleda deka sepak ne ja poznavate emigracijata koku sto si mislite. Ne > >postoi takva podelba. No znam sto sakata da kazete: tie pred 1944 se > >Bugari, tie posle se Makedonci (so izmien mozok, se razbira). > > There are plenty of US documents pointing exactly to this shift in Macedonian > immigration to North America. Before WW II Macedonians (coming mostly from > Aegean and Vardar Macedonia) were declaring themselves as Bulgarian by > nationality. That's another of your comic theories. It's simply not true and it shows that you haven't been around Macedonian communities in North America. An excerpt from an American Encyclopedia (of Minorities or > something like that) in that sense was posted couple of years ago by Mr. Vasil > Babamov to Usenet. He still might have the file (I might have saved it as > well). This is a Fact. So what ? > Not really a fact. > >Edna rabota > >ne mi e jasna g. Dimov. Ako ni go 'izmile' mozokot vo 1944 (so isklucok > >na Vas i slicni na Vas) i nie veleime deka sme Makedonci, togas zosto Vie > >ne kazuvate deka ste Bugari? Neli vas ne Vi e izmien mozokot, a i ja > >'znaete' vistinata, kako sto sam go velite. > > Simply Mr. Dimov's claim to be Macedonian is not based on fallacies. He knows > the Truth and makes an informed choice to be Macedonian. This does not > contradict with his understanding that we (Bulgarians and Macedonians) have > common roots. So what ? > I really still don't understand. If I knew my roots, I would stick to them, why adopding names and nationalities imposed by the Serbs and the Communists? > >I dokazavte deka vo Makedonija nemase Makedonci tuku site bea Bugari. > >Neli taka? A zosto ima lugje vo Grcija i Bugarija koi velat deke ne se > >Bugari ami Makedonci i koi niv im go izmil mozokot e prasanje koe nikoj > >od vas Bugarite ne mozel da mi odgovori. > > Again Slavko presents untrue speculations. There were plenty if discussions > why "pure" Macedonians do exist in nowadays Greece and Bulgaria. Just for > those who don't know my humble opinion (Slavko is not one of them :-)), here > are some thoughts (and possible answers). > > In the case of Bulgaria, there was a period of state sponsored "Macedonization" > after WW II when Bulgarians from Macedonia along with Comintern directives were > "given offer they could not reject". Teachers from Yugoslavia came to teach the > kids "Macedonian language" :-) Valuable historical documents were shipped to > Skopje (and it seems that many of them got destroyed there while others were > used to re-write history of Macedonia). Even the remainings of legendary Gotse > Delchev were not spared and moved to Skopje. While the official policy of > Communist Bulgaria was changed after Tito's break up with the Soviet Union, the > Bulgarian Communist Party was always reluctant (at least domestically) to open > discussions on the Macedonian question since those would inevitably expose the > anti-Bulgarian role of the Communist leader Georgi Dimitrov. I would expect at > least some "leftovers" from the period of Macedonization in Bulgaria to exist. Another of your comic theories. This is the same "communists" that rounded up Turkish villages to 'bulgarize' their names. Or was it only Dimitrov? > It seems that such "dissidents" were also sponsored by Yugoslav authorities > (what better way to prove the existence of a Macedonian nation !). Yeah, dissidents like Stojan Georgiev who spent 8 years in Bulgarian jails for declaring himlself Macedonian. Today he is still as poor as he has always been, despite the alleged "sponsorship". Read his book "Makedonija nad se'". Although I > have not seen this info confirmed by independent sources, it seems the leaders > of nowadays Macedonist organizations in Bulgaria were on payroll at the > Yugoslav embassy in Sofia - officially, "to take care of Serb tombs on the > territory of Bulgaria". > And this one is the most disgusting one. This only shows your hatred and "respect" for Macedonians. There must have been a lot of serbian tombs considering the number of special forces and army units employed every year just to prevent them celebrate Ilinden. And you consider Bulgaria democratic. > In the case of Greece, IMHO, the decline of the Bulgarianism of the Aegean > Macedonian Slavs is due in the first place to the lack of support for them on > behalf of Bulgaria (while Tito was offering them that kind of support esp. > during the Civil War). Intersting. No 'Bulgarian" support, no Bulgarians. That kind of fits our theories. It suffices to give the example of "Deca begalci" (Kids > refugees) who were turned down at the Bulgarian border (by God knows whose > instruction) but were taken care of elsewhere... (A really shameful act of > Bulgarian commies :-(.) Sorry, getting confused here. Are these the same commies who were forcing the "Bulgarians" in Pirin macedonia to declare themselves Macedonians? Shame on them. To reject poor "bulgarian" children. Add to that the almost complete lack of contacts with > Bulgarians and Bulgaria later and a pretty broad contacts with Yugoslavia and > Yugoslavs. Still, according to people who visited different communities in > Aegean Macedonia and with whom I have talked to, a significant part of > Macedonian Slavs (esp. elderly people) have Bulgarian identity. > Yes, we know now. Sideropoulos and others were actually brainwashed by the Greeks themselves, who later changed their minds. Or, wait, I have a better one: they were watching Macedonian TV and by the spacial, Serbian designed, tele-brainwashing were made to think thay are macedonians instead of bulgarians. I love it, it;s getting better every day... > We should not miss Albania in those discussions as well. While Slav- > Macedonians communities closer to the border with RoM seem to have a > non-Bulgarian identity, many others who are more isolated from external > influence still have their Bulgarian consciousness. They now ask for Bulgarian > schools to be established in their villages. > > Asked? Weren't your people there to offer them money, kind of the same policies from 100 years ago? Those people are so poor, and in absence of support from RM, are ready to become whatever, even Bulgarians. > I hope I have answered most of the questions and much more deliberations are > not needed. > > Best regards to all readers of M Thank you, Plamen, and also thank you for your work with many Macedonian projects. But please don't insult us by thinking we are idiots. We want to be friends with Bulgaria, but you must cnange your ways firts. > Plamen > Plamen.Bliznakov@ASU.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 00:07:44 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: "Vladimir M. Ognenovski" Subject: Re: The Bulgarians speak In-Reply-To: <199411250217.VAA18111@judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu> Plamen, I was digesting your reasoning quite well untill this guy, Babamovski,spoke out. He gave me convulsions man!!! The "Truth" that both of you refer to, is this some kind of a revelation or someone served it to you?Cola Dragojcheva maybe!!Does it mention or explain the massacre in the village of Vatasha by the bulgarian "liberators"? The Macedonians and the Bulgarians may have had common roots, but they evolved into different people with separate identity. This notion antedates WWII and subsequent macedonian consciousness among macedonians both in Macedonia and North America. You need not quote your encyclopedia, just ask the macedonians like my grand-father and great grand-father who immigrated at the turn of the century.Even Ernest Hemingway mentions the Macedonians in North America in one of his short stories. When I was in Ohrid this summer, I saw many bulgarian tourists. They took lots of pictures and left lots of footprints, they were not at home. Vlatko ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 22:41:00 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Lubi Uzunovski Organization: CRS Online (Toronto, Ontario) Subject: Why should I apologise ? in, Message-Id: <9411250016.AA06998@portnoy.canrem.com> Peter Matevski wrote, >If some people were offended by my radical remarks, well tough. I >don't believe I should show any compassion for his race or any other >races which border our nation. This is silly. When you settle down a bit I'm sure you'll see the defect in this statement. Telling Plamen to fuck-off is one thing, (probably well deserved), but accusing all our neighbours of not being human etc... is just hot air. Believe it or not, there actually are Greeks and Bulgarians who, despite the official government line, actually have respect for people, and that includes people who are Macedonian... then again there's those like Plamen too. It's ironic that some of our neighbours, like Mr. Bliznakov for example, who continually bombard us with stale 19th century propaganda have to- date barely evoked any response from the "monks"... yet your choice of inelegant language has sent the "sisters of mercy" into a frenzy. Alas, I didn't have the benifit of a monastary upbringing, so your language doesn't offend my sensibilities, and while I can't agree with much of the things you've said, there are parts that resonate a chord within me. As Macedonians we sure do put up with an awful lot of crap from people who probably don't deserve to be given the time of day. Lubi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 17:15:10 +1100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Sacha Shopov Subject: Re: IRC In-Reply-To: <9411220237.AA13133@diesel.eelab.su.OZ.AU> from "Vladimir Vuksan" at Nov 21, 94 07:30:28 pm Vladimir, > After that article that sachz posted on IRC I thought I would see more > people on the channel #macedonia but it seems there weren't. It is an > interesting medium for communication because it allows real-time chat > with people around the world. If you still haven't tried it please try > it. If you need a client for it I would be more then happy to provide it > for you so please don't hesitate to ask. If by any chance you still don't > understand what is going I could repost Sacha's post on it ( I think I > have it somewhere ). Thanks for bringing this up once more Vladimir. yes, lately we have had a lot of people join the IRC chat line and join our #Macedonia channel.. its been great! It would be great to see more online however, and it really is a powerful means of communication. There are many ways to get onto IRC, the best is to ask someone locally whether they have IRC installed on their hosts. Then once you start join our #Macedonia channel (typing /join #Macedonia), or just tell the person who told you where irc is on your system how to join the channel. It is well worth it, but takes some practice to get started. The next step is to compile your own irc program, this takes a bit of work. If you consider yourself non-tech. then this may pose a problem. if you dont know where the source code for IRC is let me know and i'll send it to you. then ill have to send you a server to connec to as well. mail me if you have any problems joining the irc. sachz alternative, you could try the following public acccess irc serevrs and type: /join #Macedonia once you're conected, but it is very slow and undesirable. (Slovakia) telnet irc.tuzvo.sk 6668 or telnet 192.108.157.3 6668 (Austria) telnet tiger.itc.univie.ac.at 6668 [alt: irc.uni-linz.ac.at or ircserver.itc.univie.ac.at (6668)] > Vladimir pozdrav, sachz -- Sacha A. Shopov Sydney, Australia shopo-sa@eelab.su.oz.au | sshopov@extro.ucc.su.oz.au == All I only want is to Rule the World == ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 18:54:37 GMT+900 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Tom Bucic Organization: Business, Uni Of Technology,Sydney Subject: Whats the story? Sasho, What's the big idea demanding and apology from Peter Matevski for expressing his thoughts? He, as a Macedonian, has the right to say whatever he likes, as , if it has ever occurred to you, that is the reason for the discussion group. It is the sort of "politically correct" people like you that stifle our peoples natioanal pride. So Peter, when you said > on the chin. Well, I feel I should at least give a truly macedonain > reply, fuck your bulgarian country and its people!!! I think you had better extend the comment to include Sasho. Later and freedom of speech to all! Tom ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 03:04:17 -0600 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Hari Radin Subject: Re: Macedonians only Sasho Kalajdzievski On Thu, 24 Nov 1994, Peter Matevski wrote: > Fellow Macedonians, [del] > > on the chin. Well, I feel I should at least give a truly macedonain > reply, fuck your bulgarian country and its people!!! > >How miserable. I request that this person >apologizes or be removed from the list. I absolutely agree with Sasho. Postings like this should not be tolerated on MAKEDON. I appeal to the moderators to ask again Peter Matevski to apologize to Plamen, and if not to prevent Peter of further posting to the group. It is important to cut behavior like this immediately and prevent similar postings in the future, otherwise MAKEDON will be destroyed in no time. This is not a question of different political views, but a behavior on the group, and it's survival. If the mediators do tolerate this flagrant abuse of the group, they will have no ethical right to react at the similar postings in the future, and the collapse of MAKEDON will be inevitable. Wasn't that the whole idea of having this group mediated? Salutes, Hari P.S. I am personaly very disturbed by Peter's racial views and I appeal to all MAKEDONERS to stand up publically against such ideas. Silence may be taken as an approval. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 03:12:59 -0600 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Hari Radin Subject: Original postings 1 Howdy MAKEDONERS, The hot discussion transfered by Slavko on MAKEDON originated at alt.news.macedonia. I don't follow anm, as may be the case with many MAKEDONERS, so I went there and found the original articles that started all of this. They are two not that long threads and I post them here for the benefit of the ones that don't have access to anm and want to follow the discussion. Salutes, Hari ============================================================================ Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia From: nastev@quartz.ggl (Miroslav Nastev) Subject: personal opinion Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 22:39:35 GMT I've been foolowing this newsgroup for a while. Some guys are realy hard-workers in giving hystorical details even from the time of Alexander le Grand. What he has to do with nowdays Greecs or Macedonians. Lot of time is spent in writings which oposite side does not want to accept. The truth must be somewhere inbetween. If we neglect the Macedonians in the time before J.C., there were no Macedonians in the sense of a nation until the begining of the XX century. Most people living there called themselfs Bulgarians, or Greecs, Turcs, Vlachs, etc. It is not only Prlicev that writes 'we Bulgarians are a simple people' or Miladinovci brothers that collected 'Zbornik of Bulgarian songs'. If someone called himself Macedonian it was more in GEOGRAPHICAL term, but not as a distinct nationality. Any quotation, from the period before 1945, talking about distinct macedonian nation is not representing the facts as they were. I would like Slavko to quote some members of IMRO that are still living or died recently. They are all on Bulgarian side. Why. It is difficult to explain to the older emigration in the USA and Canada that they are not any more Bulgarians. Lets talk about the churches. They were bulgarian, greec or serbian, same as the fillings of the people going there. There are a lot of villages with two or even three different churches. Saying this churches are macedonian is correct but in geographical terms. Lets take the example of St.Dimitria in Skopje, near the old turkish bridge. When it was built there was a sign reading bulgarian churc above the front entrance. When the Serbs occupied the city, 1912, they simply changed the sign to serbian church. The first mention of Macedonian as maybe a separate nation was in the begining of XX century by Italian and Austrian-German authors. The goal was to spread their influence further towards the east. But this was not enough for the people to start feeling themselfs as Macedonians. Comintern followed this concept. What happened after 1944 it is well known. I do not understand why the Greecs do not accept the facts as they are. Each nation has its begining and end. Last 50 years were the years when a new nation was born with its own language and alphabet firmly defined in the first years after the IIWW. Macedonia as a separate state, macedonian as a separate language and Macedonian as a separate nation are facts. Why the name should bother the Greecs. There are so many examples of a nation taking name from its neighbours or predecessors (Francs were a german tribe; Quebec is an indian word, etc.). Neither Bulgarians should bother why a part of their people separated and established own state and nation (are Quebecois frenchmen, or Ontariens british). Neither Macedonians need to proove that they existed for 2000 years. Why is this important. Neighbours should live in PEACE and understanding. Balkan is such a mixture that no one can say with certainty what he or she is. Who was majority in which part is not important any more. Every one came from somewhere. Nor the Greecs, nor the Slavs, nor the Turcs. I feel sory for the Turcs that were chased, for the Vlachs that are disapearing, for the Bosnians that are so suffering nowdays, for the Albanians that are depressed. Let us start understanding each other. Difference is richness. Let us start living like normal human beings. MIRO ============================================================================= Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia From: an97122@anon.penet.fi (Angel Dimov) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 05:45:26 UTC nastev@quartz.ggl (Miroslav Nastev) wrote: >I've been following this newsgroup for a while. Some guys are really >hard-workers in giving historical details even from the time of Alexander le >Grand. What he has to do with nowdays Greecs or Macedonians. Lot of time is >spent in writings which oposite side does not want to accept. The truth must >be somewhere inbetween. (stuff deleted) >What happened after 1944 it is well known. I do not understand why the Greecs >do not accept the facts as they are. Each nation has its begining and >end. Last 50 years were the years when a new nation was born with its own >language and alphabet firmly defined in the first years after the >IIWW. Macedonia as a separate state, macedonian as a separate language and >Macedonian as a separate nation are facts. > Aferim be Miro! there is nothing to be added to this posting! Let me just express my personal opinion on this. I come from the Republic of Macedonia (I was even baptized in the church St. Dimitria in Skopje, that you mentioned:-)). I strongly object the misrepresentation and fabrication of the history done in the Republic of Macedonia. Most falsifications were done during the 70-years long Yugoslav occupation of Macedonia, with the goals and interest of the the governor of Macedonia at the time - Yugoslavia(Serbs). Believe me, many people in Macedonia have already realized that the fabrications of history in Yugoslav Macedonia were enormous. It is not a secret that not even a single yugo-macedonian book on history or ethnicity was ever translated or published internationally! I don't count here the expensive color propaganda publications of the state controlled "Matica na iselenicite" from Skoje, and the materials distributed for many years by the Yugoslav Embassies around the world. As someone recently put it: "SR Makedonija beshe edinstvenata zemja kajshto nacionalnata istorija beshe drzhavna tajna!"(SR Macedonia was the only state where the national history was a federal top secret!) To solve the Macedonian Question people from all sided will have to accept todays REALITY, and the Macedonians will have to accept the HISTORY! Macedonians today exist, with their distinct nationality, state, language and culture. It is incorrect and pointless to try to show the opposite. That has to be realized by the neighbors. The Greeks have to realized that Macedonians have the right to use the name "Macedonia" as much as the Greeks. The Bulgarians have to realized that Macedonians are today separate and independents nation, with their own language and culture. We can share the history but without implying the present or future. The Yugoslavs/Serbs have to realize that the Republic of Macedonia is an independent, sovereign state equal to all the others in their rights, and that it is not a Yugoslav colony any more. And we, Macedonians will have to forget the Yugo-macedonian historical science-fiction. The recent history of Macedonians is so well documented that it is incorrect and pointless to try to dissasociate our roots from the Bulgarians. One can go and change the words "Bulgarian" with "Macedonian" in the translations of hundreds of book, but still there will be thousands more originals, that will just expose our whole scientific community. As you said: >Neighbours should live in PEACE and understanding. Balkan is such a mixture >that no one can say with certainty what he or she is. Who was majority in >which part is not important any more. Every one came from somewhere. Nor the >Greecs, nor the Slavs, nor the Turcs. I feel sory for the Turcs that were >chased, for the Vlachs that are disapearing, for the Bosnians that are so >suffering nowdays, for the Albanians that are depressed. Let us start >understanding each other. Difference is richness. Let us start living like >normal human beings. Thank you, Miro, again for writing so clearly the basics of the Macedonian question and the only possible solution. Best regards, Angel ============================================================================ Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia Subject: UN: personal opinion From: lubi.uzunovski@canrem.com (Lubi Uzunovski) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 94 00:47:00 -0400 in Message-ID: <055340Z10111994@anon.penet.fi an97122@anon.penet.fi (Angel Dimov) writes, Subject: Re: personal opinion >>nastev@quartz.ggl (Miroslav Nastev) wrote: >>I've been following this newsgroup for a while. Some guys are really >>hard-workers in giving historical details even from the time of >>Alexander le Grand. What he has to do with nowdays Greecs or >>Macedonians. Lot of time is spent in writings which oposite side does >>not want to accept. The truth must be somewhere inbetween. Anti-Macedonian, pro-Bulgarian diatribe deleted Enter Angel Dimov: >Aferim be Miro! >there is nothing to be added to this posting! Let me just express my >personal opinion on this. >I come from the Republic of Macedonia (I was even baptized in the >church St. Dimitria in Skopje, that you mentioned:-)). >I strongly object the misrepresentation and fabrication of the history >done in the Republic of Macedonia. Most falsifications were done >during the 70-years long Yugoslav occupation of Macedonia, with the >goals and interest of the the governor of Macedonia at the time - >Yugoslavia(Serbs). Further anti-Macedonian, pro-Bulgar rantings deleted... >Best regards, Angel Angel, in all of your salivating diatribe you do not refer to yourself as a Macedonian? Sho ti fali? In fact you refer to "Macedonians" in the third person. You're no Macedonian, so don't even presume to speak for Macedonians or their history. I don't care where you were born, or what church you were Christened in. Furthermore, you are quite wrong, when you claim that most historical falsifications were done in Macedonia over the last 70 years. My grandparents and great-grandparents and their grandparents, etc., had to put up with the attempted Bulgarization of their society. Now, you and Mr. Nastev intend to further verbally urinate on this subject. We've put up with your enlightenment for a long time (too long in my opinion). You and Nastev seem to have access to some orb which (in your minds) has "educated" you to refer to the Macedonians as nothing more than Bulgarians. You two should realize that the days of my grandparents are long gone. We have a Republic now and we don't need to live under the Bulgarian boot. The assimilatory policies of an irredentist Bulgaria any no longer viable in Macedonia. In short, while you obviously have a right to express your "opinion", its quite clear that Macedonians all over the world, simply do not agree with you. It doesn't behoove you to treat us as misguided fools who don't know who we are. We do know, we know it only too well. Why don't you flush the anti-Macedonian, pro-Bulgarian rhetoric down the toilet, with the rest of the shit. We really don't care for that here. Lubi =========================================================================== Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia From: an97122@anon.penet.fi (Angel Dimov) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 08:56:38 UTC Lubi, I read your posting but found it to be just name-calling - no essence. Anyway, I'll try to point it out to you in the following lines. lubi.uzunovski@canrem.com (Lubi Uzunovski) wrote: [...] >Anti-Macedonian, pro-Bulgarian diatribe deleted ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Pointless name-calling. No comment needed. [...] >Further anti-Macedonian, pro-Bulgar rantings deleted... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Pointless name-calling. No comment needed. >Angel, in all of your salivating diatribe you do not refer to yourself >as a Macedonian? You bet I do! You just haven't read my posting carefully. (in the last paragraph I said "And we, Macedonians ...") >In fact you refer to "Macedonians" in the >third person. Wrong. See above. You didn't read my posting. >You're no Macedonian, so don't even presume to speak for >Macedonians or their history. First, I am a Macedonia. Second, regardless of the first statement, I can speak about any subject I want. >I don't care where you were born, or >what church you were Christened in. Fine, that was not address to you in the first place. I don't care either whether you were baptized or not, but I think that we should be able to communicate in a more or less civilized way. >Furthermore, you are quite wrong, when you claim that most historical >falsifications were done in Macedonia over the last 70 years. Ok, why? My statement is based on my experience and observations. I have seen it for myself. I was born in SR Macedonia, I lived there, was educated there, talked to my living ancestors, read many historical books published there, and later compared them with the materials in the rest of the world. So, I saw the way this falsifications were done myself, by comparing it with many independent sources. >My grandparents and great-grandparents and their grandparents, etc., had >to put up with the attempted Bulgarization of their society. Grand-parents are pretty common thing, other people have them, too ... :-) >Now, you >and Mr. Nastev intend to further verbally urinate on this subject. We've >put up with your enlightenment for a long time (too long in my opinion). Who are those "we"? This reminds me of a scene from a novel (made to a movie recently). An UDB-a officer is questioning a prisoner sometimes in 1946 (somewhere in Macedonia) with the words: "Priznaj, bando, priznaj, pi*da ti materina! Dosta smo mi VAS pushtali da radite shta hochete. Dosta, i previshe! Izbichemo ti sada par zuba i taj bezobrazni pogled iz ochiju. Bando, naje*achemo ti se majke!" (Admit, bandit, admit, f**k your mother! We've put up with you for a long time! Long, even too long! We'll extract you a couple of teeth now, and that weird look from your eyes. Bandit, we'll f**k your mother for a while! >You and Nastev seem to have access to some orb which (in your minds) >has "educated" you to refer to the Macedonians as nothing more than >Bulgarians. What are you talking about? Hello? When did I say that? I said that most of the Macedonians and Bulgarians have common roots, and that is a historic fact, like it or not. And what do you mean by "nothing more than"? We are just different from the Bulgarians, that's it. But still have common roots. Like Montenegreens and Serbians. Did I say that Macedonians are Bulgarians? Or was I taking about our common roots? >You two should realize that the days of my grandparents >are long gone. It seems that it's you who are not realizing that the days of Yugoslavia are gone. >We have a Republic now and we don't need to live under >the Bulgarian boot. The assimilatory policies of an irredentist >Bulgaria any no longer viable in Macedonia. Irredentist Bulgaria?!?!? You are relay a funny. This is ridiculous. I haven't even been in Bulgaria in my life. What are you dreaming about? You are inventing the "crime", setting up the evidences, prosecuting, sentencing and executing at the same time. You would have had an excellent career as a people's judge (naroden sudija) in 1945-55 NR Macedonia or Stalin's USSR. >In short, while you obviously have a right to express your "opinion", >its quite clear that Macedonians all over the world, simply do not >agree with you. I don't know about the Macedonians around the world, but I know that the young opposition Macedonians in the Republic DO agree with me. I am part of them, and I know what they think and how they feel. I just came back from Skopje couple of weeke ago. >It doesn't behoove you to treat us as misguided fools >who don't know who we are. Well ... it was YOU who said that ... :-) >We do know, we know it only too well. Yes, of course ... just a silence can follow an argument as convincing as this ... > Why >don't you flush the anti-Macedonian, pro-Bulgarian rhetoric down the >toilet, with the rest of the shit. We really don't care for that here. Some more name-calling (Hello, Zoki, are you counting?) Is this "the Royal We" again, referring to yourself? :-) Anyway, I don't share your opinion on this, either. Lubi also wrote: >>PS That orb is commonly known as "reading" books not published in >>Skopja. > > One great advantage in going >to a Macedonian library, is that it houses a vast collection of >UNCENSORED material. This is a joke of the year! >I would suggest that it is preferrable when >reading about Macedonia to use texts which are not published in >Macedonia. Like the 1914 Carnegie report that was never translated or allowed in Yugoslav-Macedonia? Danny posted some translated fragments from a (still unknown to the rest of us) book published in SRM. Is that what you are suggesting? >>>The assimilatory policies of an irredentist Bulgaria any no >>>longer viable in Macedonia. > >>Angel hasn't said anything irredentist! > >Angel (who did not refer to himself as a Macedonian) is espousing the >idea that Macedonians are Bulgars. Now, you figure it out (get help >if you need), if the Macedonians are bulgars, then Bulgaria gets to >"protect" them and bring them back into the fold. Of course the >territory comes without question. The the modern Greek state has >used this kind of false argument throughout this century. (Excuse me, please, Lubi. From now on I will state in every sentence that I am a Macedonian, just to make you happy and doubtless.:-)) I am not "esposing the idea that Macedonians are Bulgarians", but I stated a well founded historical fact that most of us Macedonians have common roots with the Bulgarians. Probably it's easier for you to argue with what you want to argue and the imaginary enemy, instead with what I said. But, what can we do ... that's nothing new, I guess. This all looks like a name-calling tactics taken from books like: Slobodan Penezich-Krcun "UDB-a's Manual For Young Investigators", Detska radost, Skopje, 1961. Chapter "Special war", Page 7,: "If you suspect someone, call him "a Bulgarian" publically for whatsoever reason. That will disarm him and let you proceed with the intimidation, ending up in a total humiliation, which will facilitate the arrest." :-) Did I got you right: Are you claiming that we should falsificate the history and hide our common roots with the Bulgarians out of fear that they may come and occupy us? Hmmmm ... Cheers, S.K. - S.N<. Angel =========================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 03:20:07 -0600 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Hari Radin Subject: Original postings 2 This is the origin of the second thread transfered for discussion to MAKEDON. Salutes, Hari ==================================================================== From: goce@wsooti26.win.tue.nl (Goce Naumoski) Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia Subject: Strplivost, Valkanost, itn Date: 17 Nov 1994 09:10:07 +0100 Chitam i se chudam, se chudam i nemozham da se iznachudam. A chudenjeto se odnesuva na strplivosta na nekolku od Makedoncite, a posebno na Slavko. Sekoja ti chest koga mozhesh da bidesh taka strpliv. Zoshto? Pa samo vo poslednive 2-3 denovi N.Valkanas go upotrebi zborot "iredentizam" mozhebi 100-na pati. Chovek mu kazhuva "so milo, so blago, so krotko" deka ne saka vojna, deka saka mir, deka saka dobro da zhivee, kako so nego taka i so site sosedi. A toj, toj pravi se shto e vo negova mozhnost da te naluti, da te navredi, da te natera navistina da go napravish toa shto toj samiot si go vmetnal vo glavata, da mu rechesh "more e...i ja majkata, g...o ni edno" itn. Tuku shto podrazbira toj so negovoto "iredentizam"? I dali site grci se vaka "glupavi"? Ako se, togash ne ni se pishe dobro (osven ako i nashite politichari ne imaat takava ili podobra strplivost npr. kako Slavko). Pozdravi, Goce. PS. Tekstov ne go preveduvam (ili pishuvam) na angliski bidejki mozham da go pratam Valkaniot vo "m.....a mu". I izvinte ako vo porakava pochuvstvuvavte lutina sprema Valkaniot i slichnite kako nego. No zhto znaesh, mozhebi bash toa im e i celta, da provociraat !? ========================================================================== Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia From: an97122@anon.penet.fi (Angel Dimov) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 02:38:18 UTC Subject: Re: Strplivost Valkanost, itn Goce, eve i jas chitam i se chudam, se chudam i nemozham da se iznachudam. Ova shto go pishuvash za Grcite e sosema tochno, ama stavi raka na srce i pogledni gi nekoj od "nashive". Moeto chudenje se odnesuva na stilot na komuniciranje na nekolku dushi, a posebno na L. Uzunoski. Pa samo vo poslednive 2-3 denovi L. Uzunoski go upotrebi zborot (etiketata) "anti-makedonski pro-bugarski" mozhebi poveke od 10-na pati. Za zhal ushte ima nashi luge koj namesto da gi objasnat svojte argumenti go plukaat sagovornikot i go lepat so etiketi od arsenalot na UDB-a. I poleka, za niv verojatno neosetno, se prefrlaat preku barierata koja ja deli logikata od bezumieto. Vo taa svoja sostojba, zarazeni so slichen sindrom kako i mnogumina od Grcite, tie si go zimaat pravoto da reshavaat koj e Makedonec a koj ne, i koj smee da bide Makedonec a na kogo tie tova mu go zabranuvat. Ushte po interesno, kriteriumot za tova im e veruvanjeto vo oficielniot ("marksistichki") pogled kon nashata ponova istorija. Ne sakaat da razberat deka ima mnogu razlichni pogledi i tolkuvanja na istorijata, i deka nivniot e samo eden od mnozinstvoto. Po mene samo eptem naiven chovek mozhe da veruva deka nashite komshii sekogash ja prikazhuvale istorijata kako shto si e, ama da se veruva deka drzhavnite istorichari vo SRM vo isto vreme toa go pravile - e chista ludost. Zoshto chista ludost? Pa zatoa shto i najmaloto dete od Makedonija znae deka SAMO EDEN pogled na nashata nova istorija beshe dozvolen vo poslednive 50 godini. NIKAKVA alternativa, nikakov sudir na mislenja, nishto. Shto ti servira Laze Kulishot, Blazhe Konjot i crvenata tajfa - tova ti e. Sakash kupuvaj - sakash ostavaj. Koj da se osmeli neshto da im kazhe shto ne e po nivnata gajda - odma lepi mu etiketi, vikaj go "klasen neprijatel", "anti-makedonski", "pro-bugarski element", "fashist", "terorist", "del od razvlastenata burzhoazija", "avet od minatoto", sudi go po (ushte-neizmenetiot) zakon za "makedonska nacionalna chest", a ne malku i so glava platia. Taka i nashiov Lubi, vo dalechnata i studenata Kanada, vospituvan verojatno od vesnicite na "Maticata na iselenicite", si go zima pravoto na dzhandar od pasoshkiot oddel na MVR, i reshava kogo ke go udostoi so imeto Makedonec i na kogo ke mu go dade siniot pasosh. (abe, da ne e za plachenje, slatko ke se nasmeevne.) Chovek mu kazhuva "so milo, so blago, so krotko" deka ne saka vojna, deka saka mir, deka saka dobro da zhivee, kako so nego taka i so site shto mislat inaku. A toj, toj pravi se shto e vo negova mozhnost da te naluti, da te navredi, da te natera navistina da go napravish toa shto toj samiot si go vmetnal vo glavata, da mu rechesh "more e...i ja majkata, g....o ni edno" itn. Od druga strana, Daniel koj postirashe (pretpostavuvam bez da znae) falsifikati pechateni vo SRM od prevodot na knigata na Karnegievata komisia za Balkanskite vojni, ne najde za shodno da se izvini, ili barem da ni kazhe od kade gi zemal tia fikcii. Knigata na Karnegievata komisia e mozhebi najavtoritativen materijal za Balkanskite vojni, napishan od megjunarodna grupa, bez predstavitel na niedna od zaratenite balkanski strani. Tova e kniga za podelbata na Makedonija i prosto e nesvatlivo da edna takva kniga i mnogu drugi kako nea nikogash ne vidova bel den vo SRM. Zhal mi e shto lugevo ne mozhat da vidi kolku ja diskreditira makedonskata nauka so svojte neprovereni postinzi prepishani direkno od crvenite evangelia pechateni vo SRM. Neste li se prashale zoshto edna takva kniga nikogash ne e bila prevedena ili dostapna vo original vo SRM? Sigurno razlogot ne e finansijski, oti se preveduvaa i pechatea kaj nas zbirki na Japonska poezia i prikazni na svahili. Jas ja barav so godini vo skopskata biblioteka ovaa kniga, i nikogash ne mi ja dadoa so izgovor deka mi trebelo "pismo od moeto OOZT ili fakultetot za koj proekt ke sum ja koristel!?". Daniel veke ni go dade odgovorot zoshto e toa bilo taka. Pozdravi, Angel PS. Tekstov ne go preveduvam (ili pishuvam) na angliski bidejki mozham da go pratam Uzunoskiot vo "m.....a mu". I izvinte ako vo porakava pochuvstvuvavte lutina sprema Lubi i slichnite kako nego. No zhto znaesh, mozhebi bash toa im e i celta, da provociraat !? P.P.S. Goce, izvini shto koristev nekoj od tvojte zborovi. Ti samiot go beshe ubavo opishal ovoj fenomen, da nemashe potreba da go menuvam. Kome(n)diata si e ista, glumcite samo se menuvaat. ============================================================================== From: zmitrov@ampere.ee.rochester.edu (Zoran Mitrovski) Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia Subject: Angel analizira Date: 18 Nov 1994 16:55:35 -0500 Angel Dimov pissuva: > Goce, > > eve i jas chitam i se chudam, se chudam i nemozham da se iznachudam. > Ova shto go pishuvash za Grcite e sosema tochno, ama stavi raka na > srce i pogledni gi nekoj od "nashive". Angel, mozze i jas? > Moeto chudenje se odnesuva na stilot na komuniciranje na nekolku > dushi, a posebno na L. Uzunoski. Pa samo vo poslednive 2-3 > denovi L. Uzunoski go upotrebi zborot (etiketata) "anti-makedonski > pro-bugarski" mozhebi poveke od 10-na pati. Abe da ne podlazznuvass malce? How about ZERO times? > Za zhal ushte ima nashi luge koj namesto da gi objasnat svojte > argumenti go plukaat sagovornikot i go lepat so etiketi od arsenalot > na UDB-a. I poleka, za niv verojatno neosetno, se prefrlaat preku > barierata koja ja deli logikata od bezumieto. Vo taa svoja sostojba, > zarazeni so slichen sindrom kako i mnogumina od Grcite, tie si go > zimaat pravoto da reshavaat koj e Makedonec a koj ne, i koj smee da > bide Makedonec a na kogo tie tova mu go zabranuvat. Pak se zezass. Koj na kogo mu zabranil da bide Makedonec? Jas nemam primeteno. > Ushte po interesno, kriteriumot za tova im e veruvanjeto vo > oficielniot ("marksistichki") pogled kon nashata ponova istorija. Ti be epten si gi izanaliziral. Aj zavrti ja toa sondata za analiza za edno 180 deg. i objasni si zossto sekoj Makedonec koj povrakja koga kke go nareccat Bugarin, spored tebe e nissto povekke od "sledbenik na marksisticckiot pogled kon nassata ponova istorija". Udri mu edna dobra analiza. > Ne sakaat da razberat deka ima mnogu razlichni pogledi i tolkuvanja > na istorijata, i deka nivniot e samo eden od mnozinstvoto. Toa samo ti se priccinuva...mislam. > Po mene samo eptem naiven chovek mozhe da veruva deka nashite komshii > sekogash ja prikazhuvale istorijata kako shto si e, ama da se veruva > deka drzhavnite istorichari vo SRM vo isto vreme toa go pravile - e > chista ludost. E sega me zbuni... Se izgubiv za moment... Od sega ne veruvam nikomu...osven tebe, normalno. > Zoshto chista ludost? Pa zatoa shto i najmaloto dete od Makedonija > znae deka SAMO EDEN pogled na nashata nova istorija beshe dozvolen > vo poslednive 50 godini. Dobro de, eve sega gledaj so POVEKJE pogledi i kazzi ni ssto gledass so sekoj od niv. Inaku I jas ednass bev "malo dete vo Makedonija" i voopssto ne go znaev ova za pogledite. > NIKAKVA alternativa, nikakov sudir na > mislenja, nishto. Shto ti servira Laze Kulishot, Blazhe Konjot i > crvenata tajfa - tova ti e. Sakash kupuvaj - sakash ostavaj. Koj > da se osmeli neshto da im kazhe shto ne e po nivnata gajda - odma > lepi mu etiketi, vikaj go "klasen neprijatel", "anti-makedonski", > "pro-bugarski element", "fashist", "terorist", ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Zossto nekako kako da ccuvstvuvam od kade duva promaja? > "del od > razvlastenata burzhoazija", "avet od minatoto", sudi go po > (ushte-neizmenetiot) zakon za "makedonska nacionalna chest", a ne > malku i so glava platia. Nikoj ne vika deka socijalizmot i SKJ/SKM bea cvekjinja za mirisanje. Samo tebe nekako ti se imaat izmessano rabotite. Znaess, od mnogu "analiza" poccinja glava da boli i na ccoek mu se javuvaat fatamorganski vrski i zapleti pomegju fenomenite ssto go opkruzzuvaat. > Taka i nashiov Lubi, vo dalechnata i studenata Kanada, vospituvan > verojatno od vesnicite na "Maticata na iselenicite", si go zima > pravoto na dzhandar od pasoshkiot oddel na MVR, i reshava kogo ke > go udostoi so imeto Makedonec i na kogo ke mu go dade siniot > pasosh. (abe, da ne e za plachenje, slatko ke se nasmeevne.) Ne be nema nissto za placcenje, mene bass mi e smessno. Ajde site zaedno...Hahahahaha. (rakata usste ja drzzam na srce) Usste gledass fatamorgani? > Chovek mu kazhuva "so milo, so blago, so krotko" deka ne saka vojna, > deka saka mir, deka saka dobro da zhivee, kako so nego taka i so site > shto mislat inaku. A toj, ljutko, sso ti vika ? > A toj, toj pravi se shto e vo negova mozhnost da te > naluti, da te navredi, da te natera navistina da go napravish toa shto > toj samiot si go vmetnal vo glavata, da mu rechesh "more e...i ja More ssto loss bil ovoj Lubi. Sega i mene mi gi otvori occite. Vo kratki crti: 1. "veruva vo marksisticcki pogled kon nassata ponova istorija" 2. "vospituvan verojatno od vesnicite na Maticata na iselenicite" 3. "zima pravo na dzhandar od MVR" 4. "pravi se ssto e vo negova mozznost da te navredi" Angel, abe partali go napravi ccoekot. Nego daj ti kazzi ssto besse poentava na celovo tvoe "argumentirano" plukanje. Jas usste ne gledam ssto i koj te macci ili ti zabranuva nessto. What's the problem? No da se vratime na zborovite na eden poznat B'lgarin od "nassata ponova istorija": > Za zhal ushte ima nashi luge koj namesto da gi objasnat svojte > argumenti go plukaat sagovornikot i go lepat so etiketi od arsenalot > na UDB-a. Cheers, Zoran ;^) P.S. Pripazi so koristenjeto na "nassi". Barem jas za sebe znam deka ne sum "tvoj", a drugite poveli pa prassaj gi. P.P.S Crn Goce, sso docceka! ============================================================================== Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia From: an97122@anon.penet.fi (Angel Dimov) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 10:36:12 UTC Subject: Re: Angel analizira Zoran Mitrovski (zmitrov@ampere.ee.rochester.edu) wrote: : Angel Dimov pissuva: : > Goce, : > : > eve i jas chitam i se chudam, se chudam i nemozham da se iznachudam. : > Ova shto go pishuvash za Grcite e sosema tochno, ama stavi raka na : > srce i pogledni gi nekoj od "nashive". : Angel, mozze i jas? Mozhe be, zlaten, samo udri. : > Moeto chudenje se odnesuva na stilot na komuniciranje na nekolku : > dushi, a posebno na L. Uzunoski. Pa samo vo poslednive 2-3 : > denovi L. Uzunoski go upotrebi zborot (etiketata) "anti-makedonski : > pro-bugarski" mozhebi poveke od 10-na pati. : : Abe da ne podlazznuvass malce? How about ZERO times? Ne be, dushko, ne se zanimavam so takvi raboti. Prochitaj go postingot na Lubi ushte ednash. : > Za zhal ushte ima nashi luge koj namesto da gi objasnat svojte : > argumenti go plukaat sagovornikot i go lepat so etiketi od arsenalot : > na UDB-a. I poleka, za niv verojatno neosetno, se prefrlaat preku : > barierata koja ja deli logikata od bezumieto. Vo taa svoja sostojba, : > zarazeni so slichen sindrom kako i mnogumina od Grcite, tie si go : > zimaat pravoto da reshavaat koj e Makedonec a koj ne, i koj smee da : > bide Makedonec a na kogo tie tova mu go zabranuvat. : Pak se zezass. Pa ti lepo prichash srpski - ovo "zezash" je bash suuuper! (interesno, kako ne ti se povrakja koga gi imitirash severnite nashi komshii, a koa nekoj ke ti gi spomne istochnite, nemash, siroma, vreme ni da viknesh: "drzh mi, mamo, gla'ata nad legenot". : Koj na kogo mu zabranil da bide Makedonec? : Jas nemam primeteno. Pak, vrati se i prochitaj go postingot na Lubi ushte ednash. Siguren sum deka ke primetish. : > Ushte po interesno, kriteriumot za tova im e veruvanjeto vo : > oficielniot ("marksistichki") pogled kon nashata ponova istorija. : Ti be epten si gi izanaliziral. Abe, uchenoto si e ucheno. : Aj zavrti ja toa sondata za analiza za edno 180 deg. i objasni si : zossto sekoj Makedonec koj povrakja koga kke go nareccat Bugarin, : spored tebe e nissto povekke od "sledbenik na marksisticckiot pogled : kon nassata ponova istorija". Udri mu edna dobra analiza. Mene mi e jasno. Ako sakash mozham da se opitam tebe da ti go objasnam. Kazhi samo, ne e strashno. (Mene, vidish, za razlika od tebe, mi se povrakja nekoj koga ke me nareche i Jugosloven.) : : > Ne sakaat da razberat deka ima mnogu razlichni pogledi i tolkuvanja : > na istorijata, i deka nivniot e samo eden od mnozinstvoto. : Toa samo ti se priccinuva...mislam. : > Po mene samo eptem naiven chovek mozhe da veruva deka nashite komshii : > sekogash ja prikazhuvale istorijata kako shto si e, ama da se veruva : > deka drzhavnite istorichari vo SRM vo isto vreme toa go pravile - e : > chista ludost. : E sega me zbuni... Se izgubiv za moment... : Od sega ne veruvam nikomu...osven tebe, normalno. : > Zoshto chista ludost? Pa zatoa shto i najmaloto dete od Makedonija : > znae deka SAMO EDEN pogled na nashata nova istorija beshe dozvolen : > vo poslednive 50 godini. : Dobro de, eve sega gledaj so POVEKJE pogledi i kazzi ni ssto gledass : so sekoj od niv. Inaku I jas ednass bev "malo dete vo Makedonija" i : voopssto ne go znaev ova za pogledite. Ama i od kako porasna, eve, mi se chini, ne go nauchi ... : > NIKAKVA alternativa, nikakov sudir na : > mislenja, nishto. Shto ti servira Laze Kulishot, Blazhe Konjot i : > crvenata tajfa - tova ti e. Sakash kupuvaj - sakash ostavaj. Koj : > da se osmeli neshto da im kazhe shto ne e po nivnata gajda - odma : > lepi mu etiketi, vikaj go "klasen neprijatel", "anti-makedonski", : > "pro-bugarski element", "fashist", "terorist", : ^^^^^^^^^^^^ : Zossto nekako kako da ccuvstvuvam od kade duva promaja? Zatoa shto, siroma, patish od B-complex. Neli kazha shtom nekoj ke ti ja spomne bukvata "B" odma ti se povrakja. : > "del od : > razvlastenata burzhoazija", "avet od minatoto", sudi go po : > (ushte-neizmenetiot) zakon za "makedonska nacionalna chest", a ne : > malku i so glava platia. : Nikoj ne vika deka socijalizmot i SKJ/SKM bea cvekjinja za mirisanje. Kako be nikoj? A onija pobednici shto skandiraa nekna vo Skopje "Tito, Tito i po Tito- Tito!". Ti si, izgleda, zaboravil. Za nekoj yugo-socializmot beshe ne cveke za mirisanje, ama slatko od ruzhi. : Samo tebe nekako ti se imaat izmessano rabotite. Znaess, od mnogu : "analiza" poccinja glava da boli i na ccoek mu se javuvaat fatamorganski : vrski i zapleti pomegju fenomenite ssto go opkruzzuvaat. : > Taka i nashiov Lubi, vo dalechnata i studenata Kanada, vospituvan : > verojatno od vesnicite na "Maticata na iselenicite", si go zima : > pravoto na dzhandar od pasoshkiot oddel na MVR, i reshava kogo ke : > go udostoi so imeto Makedonec i na kogo ke mu go dade siniot : > pasosh. (abe, da ne e za plachenje, slatko ke se nasmeevne.) : Ne be nema nissto za placcenje, mene bass mi e smessno. : Ajde site zaedno...Hahahahaha. : (rakata usste ja drzzam na srce) : Usste gledass fatamorgani? Abe, Zoki, i ti si, gledam, "shalivdzhija". Ako, da se "posmeemo malo". : > Chovek mu kazhuva "so milo, so blago, so krotko" deka ne saka vojna, : > deka saka mir, deka saka dobro da zhivee, kako so nego taka i so site : > shto mislat inaku. : A toj, ljutko, sso ti vika ? Ova go prati na smetkata na Goce, oti se negovi dumite ... : > A toj, toj pravi se shto e vo negova mozhnost da te : > naluti, da te navredi, da te natera navistina da go napravish toa shto : > toj samiot si go vmetnal vo glavata, da mu rechesh "more e...i ja : More ssto loss bil ovoj Lubi. Sega i mene mi gi otvori occite. : Vo kratki crti: : 1. "veruva vo marksisticcki pogled kon nassata ponova istorija" : 2. "vospituvan verojatno od vesnicite na Maticata na iselenicite" : 3. "zima pravo na dzhandar od MVR" : 4. "pravi se ssto e vo negova mozznost da te navredi" : Angel, abe partali go napravi ccoekot. : Nego daj ti kazzi ssto besse poentava na celovo tvoe "argumentirano" : plukanje. Jas usste ne gledam ssto i koj te macci ili ti zabranuva : nessto. What's the problem? Prochitaj go mojot odgovor na Lubi ako stvarno te interesira. (Ova ni e i onaka zaebantski muabet, pa da ne go praime seriozen). Ama Zoki, edna rabota interesna: Od nishto ne ostana po kus da komentirash vo mojat poraka, osven od delot za ochiglednata falsifikacija na Carnegievata kniga koj Denny go postira. (A, pusti computer serveri-dushmani, bash tamo ti ja isekoa porakata.) Ako stvarno te interesira da nauchish poveke za nashata istorija, odi do bibliotekata vo Rochester i zemi si nekoja kniga pishana na zapad, (mozhebi bash ovaja od kade siroma Danny ni kazha deka citiral) Samo, goltni nekolku navisani pred da pochnesh da chitash, oti ... mozhe legenot da ne te sobere. :-) : No da se vratime na zborovite na eden poznat B'lgarin od "nassata : ponova istorija": Aj, me fati! Abe imeto "dzhandar" shto ti go dadoa na MAKEDON ne bilo tuku taka. Eve, drugar Zoki, ke se samokritikuvam pred Osnovnata Organizacija na prviot sostanok! : > Za zhal ushte ima nashi luge koj namesto da gi objasnat svojte : > argumenti go plukaat sagovornikot i go lepat so etiketi od arsenalot : > na UDB-a. : Cheers, : Zoran : ;^) : P.S. Pripazi so koristenjeto na "nassi". : Barem jas za sebe znam deka ne sum "tvoj", a drugite poveli pa prassaj gi. Ne beri gajle. Ti "pazi", a jas ke si vnimavam. : P.P.S Crn Goce, sso docceka! Aj so zdravje, S.K. - S.N. Angel ============================================================================ From: zmitrov@faraday.ee.rochester.edu (Zoran Mitrovski) Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia Subject: To Angel Dimov (transl.) Date: 19 Nov 1994 22:38:56 -0500 Angel, I'm neither Lubi's father nor I find myself responsible for his ideas. If I agreed 100% with him my name would've been Lubi instead of Zoran. I never liked when someone tells someone else what he is or not. If you know that you are a Macedonian noone has the right to tell you that you are not. That, I think, was the largest Lubi's "sinn". You might have noticed that in my postings I am very carefull not to tresspass through areas of other's personalities which are way out of my jurisdiction. You may hate 1000 things and you may have thousands "views on history", but please leave me alone and don't "open my eyes". Surprisingly, I have read books and have lived a life even before you suggested me to. > We are just different > from the Bulgarians, that's it. But still have common roots. > Like Montenegreens and Serbians. You can have your ideas about the "common roots" of a pickle and a giraffe if you wish, and I will stand against everyone who will try to harm you beacuse of them. I'll ask you again. What's bothering you? And I'll ask you one more thing. Are you, or are you not a Bulgarian? I want an honest, short and clear answer, so I would know not to call you as being one in the future. If you are not, I hereby make a public appology for me calling you a Bulgarian in my previous posting. If you ask me (which you should), I know that I'm not a Bulgarian I'm not a Serbian I'm not an Albanian I'm not a Greek I'm ONLY Macedonian and nothing more...and I'll continue being what I am independent of your "views" on things, including history. That was an honest, short and clear answer. Few words about you correcting my macedonian language... I'm from Skopje and there's nothing wrong with the skopjean dialect having words similar to serbian. Also there's nothing wrong with eastern macedonian dialects having words similar to bulgarian. Your fantasy of you having the power to judge a person from his dialect is your problem only and I don't feel responsible to help you dealing with it. About that "Carnegie..." stuff... I don't know who, what and why wrote in it or about it, and I don't now what to comment. Sincerely... Also, I would once more ask you to be more carefull when you state what other people think, believe or (the worst) ARE, 'cuz that makes you WORSE that any communist UDBA from the past: > I don't know about the Macedonians around the world, but I know that > the young opposition Macedonians in the Republic DO agree with me. > I am part of them, and I know what they think and how they feel. I > just came back from Skopje couple of weeke ago. > Abe imeto "dzhandar" shto ti go dadoa na MAKEDON > ne bilo tuku taka. Eve, drugar Zoki, ke se samokritikuvam pred > Osnovnata Organizacija na prviot sostanok! With best regards! Cheers, Zoran ;^) ========================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 10:49:11 GMT Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: M Petkovski Subject: Re: Why should I apologise ? > From: Lubi Uzunovski > ....... > It's ironic that some of our neighbours, like Mr. Bliznakov for example, > who continually bombard us with stale 19th century propaganda have to- > date barely evoked any response from the "monks"... yet your choice > of inelegant language has sent the "sisters of mercy" into a frenzy. > > Alas, I didn't have the benifit of a monastary upbringing, so your > language doesn't offend my sensibilities, and while I can't agree > with much of the things you've said, there are parts that resonate > a chord within me. As Macedonians we sure do put up with an awful > lot of crap from people who probably don't deserve to be given the > time of day. > > > Lubi > Lubi, you missed the point. It is not a question of the language being elegant. You say "fuck-off" when you run out of arguments. Mihail ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 13:11:36 +0100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Aleksandar Aleksov Subject: Re: Whats the story? In-Reply-To: <9411250752.AA26626@netway.rz.uni-ulm.de> from "Tom Bucic" at Nov 25, 94 06:54:37 pm Zdravo, > > Sasho, > > He, as a Macedonian, has the right to say whatever he likes, as , if > it has ever occurred to you, that is the reason for the discussion > group. Macedonian or not I don't deny the right of enybody to express their thoughts, but I deny the right to "say whatever he likes". See here, dear boy expressing thoughts ( whatever thoughts ) is not strictly connected to a certain type of words. You can express one and the same thought in different ways meaning the same thing. Well boy, if your set of words is as limited as Mr.Matevski's is, then I can understand why you don't see a reason for mr.Matevski to apologise. > What's the big idea demanding and apology from Peter Matevski for> expressing his thoughts? It's not what he said that he should apologise for ( I think ), it's the way he said what he said. If you have just a bunch of still functioning neurons in your brain sir, than you will understand just what I mean. Again nothing against expressing his thoughts, but not this way. Now just imagine ( if you can ofcourse ) what would hapen if we would all start using mr.Matevski's language. Makedon would have to change its name to Are.Maks.animals?, A.M.A.- nemojte ve molam ! > It is the sort of "politically correct" people like you that stifle > our peoples natioanal pride. > No, comment, it would be just below my level to answer this. > > So Peter, when you said > > > on the chin. Well, I feel I should at least give a truly macedonain > > reply, fuck your bulgarian country and its people!!! > > > I think you had better extend the comment to include Sasho. > How, poor. I think Sasho is just trying to be civilized ( it's hard though). > > > Later and freedom of speech to all! > Tom > Freedom of speech to all ! Alex ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 10:07:46 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: KY. Bourbon Sour Recipe Here's my wife's "Bourbon Sour" Recipe: 1) Take eight (8) sweet navel* oranges, cut into 1/8 pieces, put in a pot, cover completely with warm water. 2) Add three and one-half (3-1/2) glasses of sugar 3) Stir well and boil until oranges are very, very soft 4) Remove from fire and pour two glasses of Jack Daniels or other Kentucky Bourbon whiskey (or other strong liquor such as vodka, slivovitz, raki (ouzo), or brandy (Schnapps). 5) Put in a jar and it keeps in refrigerator for one year. Take any kind of drink you prepare for your guests and remove a piece of the orange and add a tablespoon full of the juice and you have the drink of your life! _________________________ *navel oranges are without seeds! If you use oranges with seeds, be sure to remove them! Pozdrav! Glen --- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 11:04:58 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Why should I apologise? I have a question for you, Peter. In Nazi-occupied Greece during WWII an 11-year-old girl was walking home just after 6 p.m. curfew. Two German soldiers were patrolling the street in Salonica with a German shep- herd "attack dog" on a lease. One German soldier release the dog which began to attack the girl. The other German soldier jumped in front of her and the dog tore his chest open. The soldier spent four months in the hospital recuperating. Later he "disappeared" into the hills after explaining that he hated Hitler and his racist ideas. The girl was my wife. Should she hate "all Germans" because *some* Germans were Nazis who believed that Greeks and Slavs were "Untermesschen" (subhumans). And should *you* hate all Greeks and Bulgarians becasue *some* have behaved brutally and savagely? That you have received negative responses from your fellow Macdonians shows only that Macedonians are civilized people who will not permit past brutalities to your people to blind them to new opportunities for your new country! I know it's hard, but it was hard for my wife not to hate all Ger- mans too! If she can overcome her bitterness, so can you. The alternative is for your beloved Macedonia to become another Bosnia where hate rules supreme. May God protect your country from such a fate! *That* is why you should apologize since you are better than those who have brutalized you! -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 19:58:13 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: Re: Why should I apologise? Peter Matevski writes: > If some people were offended by my radical remarks, well tough. I > don't believe I should show any compassion for his race or any > other races which border our nation. > > They have never ever given our people any respect! Hence, why > should I ? I'm responding for your sake only, hoping that you are not too deep in this shit already. Listen, pal! Hasn't your mamma taught you how to speak for yourself and how to talk to other human beings, instead of speaking for "US", and talking to whole races? If not, you have a HUGE problem, mate. > I have received many numerous replies underlining that I should > apologise and never use we or our people when writing such a letter. > This in my view is a fundamental problem with some so-called > Macedonians. They seem to believe that Serbians, Greeks and > Bulgarians alike are human. And what do you "seem to believe"? That they are not human? > Well, I'm afraid I have to bring some of > u back to reality, there are animals. O.K., by your estimation, how many dreamers did you manage to bring "back to reality"? You do estimations in the bussiness school, right? What's the ratio between the "problematic so-called Macedonians" and the "pure Macedonians" as you are? > They still even today deny our > existence in all presently occupied regions of Macedonia. They have > demonstrated in millions against our people, which to me proves that > their views are not ones held by a small portion of their ignorant > people. While, in Australia they had the nerve to burn our churches, > and then some of u so-called macedonians want me to apologise. > > Never, never and never! I'm not a psychiatrist. This is getting too complicated for me. As far as I'm concerned, don't bother to appologize to anybody. Also I'm against blackmailing people with a kick off from macedon. I think that Peter has already done enough to show everybody how seriously can he be taken. I vote not to kick him off,...for his sake, so he can read and try to learn something about the basic rules of living on this planet. > I am extremely disappointed (u can kick me off, I don't care, if this > is the view shared) I SINCERELY didn't believe that a Macedonian (or a human being in general) can degenerate to this extent. Cheers, Zoran ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 20:16:52 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: Re: Whats the story? Tom Bucic writes: > Sasho, > > What's the big idea demanding and apology from Peter Matevski for > expressing his thoughts? > > He, as a Macedonian, has the right to say whatever he likes, as , if > it has ever occurred to you, that is the reason for the discussion > group. > > It is the sort of "politically correct" people like you that stifle > our peoples natioanal pride. What is this? The Week of National-Leader-Wannabees? Is there something wrong with the radiation "down under"? People, please stop worrying about MY national pride. I appreciate your concern but it seems that you have to learn how to represent your own views ONLY. > So Peter, when you said > > > on the chin. Well, I feel I should at least give a truly macedonain > > reply, fuck your bulgarian country and its people!!! > > I think you had better extend the comment to include Sasho. ^^^^^^^ You think too much, mate. Take a vacation, and after that try thinking for yourself instead of thinking for (or against) whole nations. That should cause you much less headaches. > Later and freedom of speech to all! > Tom I'm all for that. Everybody should have the full right to make as big of a fool of himself as he prefers. Freedom is a "Porsche 911 Turbo". Everybody dreams about it but only few know how to HANDLE IT. Freedom brings lot more responsibility that you could possibly imagine. Hence, I vote nobody to be kicked off the list. Let everybody drive their "Porsche's" and leave on the world to decide how good they handle them. Cheers, Zoran ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 20:42:15 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: A grad student emotion check list I got this from a guy in my dept. I found a lot of his thoughts and actions overlaping mine. Grad-students, laugh! Others, learn! A grad-student emotion check-list 7:30am Wakeup and lie awake in Bed 7:31am Realize you spent $18 on last night's dinner, means no eating out for the next 6 weeks 7:45 am Ready to go to school, will shave tommorrow, will eat early brunch at (Denny's/Penny's/Lenny's/Dinko's whatever cafeteria). 8:03 am Arrive at school Realize your foriegn officemate arrived earlier today must have got more work done 8:04am Pass by Advisor's office, chat with Secretary to find out if he is coming in today. He is, darn. Need to start work on the draft due this afternoon. 8:15am Read mail 8:20 Delete mail from students taking EE 434 regarding questions about the class Hate your TA job Depression: too much work to do today 9:00 For jumpstart: go to coffee machine. 9:05 Kick coffee machine; promise yourself to call up the company and ask for your quarter. Wonder why they would beleive you. 9:33 Start printing out loads of stuff that may be vaguely related to your work. 9:41 Early morning stupefaction Mutter racist comments to yourself about your officemate 9:43 Curse your officemate in a low tone he would not comprehend Feel good about he not grasping English well 9:58 finger everyone at the office and most people half way around the world (using the "finger" command, of course) 10:19 Feel sleepy, should not have stayed late playing tetris last night. 10:31 momentary panic attack 10:43 edit .plan file. write a shell program to edit .plan more easily 10:59 Drop in at boss(advisor)'s office and borrow something you dont need & and kinda make him aware you are working hard on xyz 11:05 perverted daydreams 11:11 read news mid-morning yawn time 11:34 Start typing junk at a very high key-in rate to pretend you are working hard as the boss passes by from outside. 11:35 Press the BackSpace key for one and a half minute until all the garbage you typed in is erased. Realize that you can type more than 256 characters per half minute 11:41 Flirt with the new girl in the department 11:45 Print out some slides for afternoon's draft + presentation 11:47 Print them again, you forgot to change the date from last presentation 11:49 Print another copy in case this one gets lost 11:51 Completely forget about sueing the coffee-machine company 12:15 Hunger pangs: 12:20 BigMac/Fries time Drink a not-so-cold can of coke from your desk. Ch-Ching, you just saved 35 cents by buying bulk coke 1:00 Group Meeting with boss 1:14 sudden awareness of one's shallowness resentment towards foriegn officemate for sucking up to the boss Get reminded by the boss that you need to do some more literature-survey 1:51 Boss hands you the reddened copy of your draft for corrections 1:51:02 The 49 second urge to murder boss begins 1:51:52 Realize that he controls your paycheck/grade/vacation/late nights/social life/getting a paper out/graduation possiblity/graduation date if applicable/job opportunity and the rest of your life. 1:52:53 Thank him 1:52:54 Thank yourself for not saying something stupid to your boss. 1:53:00 splitting headache #1 1:59 check mail, dont reply though , you are too busy to do that 2:06 more coffee 2:17 Oh No, it is my turn to cook tonite :-( 2:30 Sit through the class you were told to sit through 2:39 look outside the window make unrealistic plans to quit this degree program and take up a job Wonder why blonde girls are so pretty 2:48 more perverted day-dreams Close the office door and open a few gif files. sharpen pencil 3:06 worry about never graduating time to write a letter rearrange desk call up bank; see if you have any money fear of losing aid next Fall Read latex manuals to figure out how to put &$%&% in %$^% format 3:43 watch the clock make plans to do a all-nighter tonite Vow to watch only 2 TV programs 4:58 Notice Boss leave 4:58:01 Sudden sense of freedom 9:00pm Come into the office 9:01pm The hard working grad student you are, you have to come to the office late at night to "get the work done" 9:03 Check mail Decide it would be a good time to attack those ftp sites since network wont be loaded Run into "since network wont be loaded" traffic and get the pictures into your machine. Compress all unwanted research/class directories to make space. Back up all your pictures 10:11 Admire pictures Begin work; Realize you need references Realize its too late today to go to the library Sudden feeling of having wasted the day 10:49 Sudden feeling of possibly having to waste the night Decide to turn in early and come back very early tommorrow morning Decide to play a computer-game to put yourself in a good mood. 11:15 Play game after game after game to improve your score and get on the scoreboard. Realize that your officemate is still at number 6, two notches above you on the scoreboard. 12:20 Play until you beat your officemate into the 7th place. A sense of achievment!! Yes, today was not wasted!! Return home to find your roommate watching David Letterman Tell him about the "hard working grad student day you had" Discuss philosophy with roommate 1:09 Think about becoming a philosopher and dining with 4 others (The Dining Philosophers problem, hee hee :-) :-)) Argue with him about politics, why people prefer Japanese cars and whether it is better to set the heat to "hot" or "cold" to defrost the windshields faster. 1:49 Realize neither of you have bought milk today Get reminded of the "too much milk problem" 2:04 Forget about getting up early. Turn the phone ringer off and go to sleep. Cheers, Zoran ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 03:02:22 -0600 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Sasho Kalajdzievski Subject: Re: Whats the story? In-Reply-To: <9411251204.AA10490@rigel.cc.umanitoba.ca> This machinery is from time to time very frustrating: a small window opens in my space and ugly little simpletons hurl nasty crap and stupidities. There were times when I used to invite them, for I had my sward sharpenned and ready. A year or so ago I entered a.n.m. and had to digest my share of not-so-bright greeks. But then, I knew before I started it what was comming, and, more importantly, it made sence to use them to influence those that could be influenced. These days other, non-invited little simpletons found onother entry into my world. Here is what one of them produced: On Fri, 25 Nov 1994, Tom Bucic wrote: > Sasho, > > What's the big idea demanding and apology from Peter Matevski for > expressing his thoughts? [At this point I loose my coolness] Look dodo, here is *all* of my post for you to see and try to think. ________ > on the chin. Well, I feel I should at least give a truly > macedonain reply, fuck your bulgarian country and its people!!! How miserable. I request that this person apologizes or be removed from the list. _________ Are you saying that "expressing thoughts" in public provides automatic imunization for the "expressor"? It seems you do. In that case suppose someone publicly expresses similar thoughts for those who produced your minimality. Can you think ? In the above instance of "expressing thoughts", dodo, we have much more: a blatant, racist (depends on your definition of "race"), obscene (he talks about ALL the Bulgarian people), offensive statement. > > He, as a Macedonian, has the right to say whatever he likes, as , if > it has ever occurred to you, that is the reason for the discussion > group. You are both in the wrong group: you need one with a psyhiatrist as a mediator. Expressing ALL your perverse thought may be very positive there. Not here dodo. > > It is the sort of "politically correct" people like you that stifle > our peoples natioanal pride. What part of my post was "politically correct"? And what deep arguments are you using to deduce the type of "my sort"? As for the "national pride", big mouths and small brains of the type of you and your fellow are not what any pride includes. > > > So Peter, when you said > > > on the chin. Well, I feel I should at least give a truly macedonain > > reply, fuck your bulgarian country and its people!!! > > > I think you had better extend the comment to include Sasho. The last time I bumped into a miserable with the mouth wide open as yours he got a fist in his throat. Man, that was loooong time ago (20 years, argh). Ah, good old times. You are killed in my files, but it is not the same feeling. > > > > Later and freedom of speech to all yes, you are also sligthly humorous > Tom > Aaaaaand, here are some "final thoughts". Yes, I do think that the two simpletons (perhaps one only ?) are very distructive. Their meassure for the degree of national conscioussnes is hate, and hate is very seductive. The "logic" they use is simple: the more I hate the neighbors, the more I differ from them, and therefore the bigger Macedonian I am; the more unrestrained the hate I express, the more I feel like a revolutionary, a pillar of the Macedonian cause. Finally, they are very divisive. Crap generates crap: let them post more crap, and soon we'll subdivide into small and big, white and red, ... While it is obvious that the main subject should sometimes change from boza to someting more political, crossing the line from loaded, flamable to the miserablia posted my P.M. is a silly thing to be allowed to be done. [boza recepy you said ? I have it :-)] Time for me to think about closing the inlet for the ugly little simpletons. To start with I dont intend to waste my time on this "topic" any more. Sasho ps L.Uzunovski: why the hell did ya call me a sister of mercy ? Do you think I wrote the sentence to protect Plamen ? Z.Mitrovski: where is the "blackmail"? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 05:27:43 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Plamen Bliznakov Subject: Re: The Bulgarian TRUTH Dear All: I found out that while I was celebrating the Turkey Day (Denot na Turcija :-)) in between my research and class work, my message was steering heated response on MAKEDON (even the Albanian thread does not appear any longer :-)). I am hesitant to follow-up for two reasons. First, some of the topics appear inappropriate (I know MAKEDON is supposed to be mostly concerned with contemporary events in the Republic of Macedonia). Second, I am pretty busy these days (the semester is near its end and I have to do a lot on my research before X-mass !). I guess, though, once I replied the first time to Slavko's messages I will have to do it a couple more times :-) On Wed, 23 Nov 1994 M Petkovski wrote: >> On Wednesday November 23, Plamen Bliznakov wrote: >> >> Right in the beginning to avoid any misunderstandings I want to state clearly >> that I respect the right of Macedonians to have their own identity. I am _not_ >> claiming that all Macedonians nowadays are merely another brand of Bulgarians >> since to me a nationality of a person is what he/she claims to be. I hope this was clear enough and everyone on the list has seen it (so I can save some bandwidth by not writing it all over again in each message :-)). I also hope I don't have to extend this disclaimer by adding what else I am _not_ claiming (e.g., that I do _not_ want Bulgaria to annex Republic of Macedonia, and other nonsense like that). There are many things I am _not_ claiming, so let's just concentrate what I _am_ claiming. >Dear Plamen, nashi, vashi & everybody else on the list > >I like the above quotation. Once you opened your letter that way, >everything else you said was an objective view, i.e. fighting for The >Truth. I presume that The Truth in this case are It might have been too abstract in this context to talk about The Truth (with capital T) . Here is some clarification. To me The Truth is the set of facts (we might call them "truths") reflecting our world. That means The Truth exists independently of our will and knowledge of it, and it is changing (evolving) - since the world itself is changing. We might or might not like some of the facts, we might give them different interpretations and explanations. If, however, we try to deny the existence of certain facts we, IMHO, are putting ourselves into a deep shit. That's, in short, my understanding of The Truth (without going into much of phylosophical discussions which do not belong to this list). In that sense, I did not talk about "The Bulgarian Truth". I did not even mean "The Truth on the Macedonian Question", I meant "The Truth in general". Of course, certain facts might support a specific theory or policy, others might be against it, but this was not my point. In the specific case, there is a historic document (Carnegie Commission report) which was altered by someone (maybe, a publisher in Skopje ?). The altered text was posted by Daniel Veljanovski (he might have not known about the changes in the original text). Then there was a person who noticed the differences (Angel Dimov) and he "blew the whistle". Instead of getting upset in the first place over the falsification (which when discovered sure does not benefit the idea of the separate Macedonian identity), Slavko gets upset that Angel brought the attention of the public to it. This is what strikes me. It would strike me just as much if a researcher would cheat and dismiss experimental results which don't fit his/her theory, and then aggressively go after someone who did not "keep his mouth shut" about the falsification. However, for Slavko this role does not seem to be shameful. Moreover, he seems to be taking pride in it. >various documents >showing that in turkish times and even before the WW2 a significant >part of the Macedonian people declared themselves or even feeled as >Bulgarians. Which according to my understanding of "nationality" (see above) means they _were Bulgarians_. Of course, we can start a discussion of the terms "nationality", "ethnicity", "race", "language", "dialect", etc. (and we might never agree on them). >The BG-church joined by the entire >BG establishment later, was present in Mac for a long, long time. And >it was time when it really counted: when people trusted priests, when >the religion was far more important than the nation (as far as the >Turks were concerned, there were no Macs, no Bulgs, only "gjaurs"). I agree completely. However, I would also make a point that at the time there was no Bulgarian state (unlike Greek or Serbian). The revival of the Bulgarian Exarchiate in Macedonia was not a matter of external influence, it depended upon the local population. The clerics themselves were in the vast majority of cases Macedonian. Actually, in many respects Macedonia was leading the Bulgarian revival (Father Paisi who wrote Slav-Bulgarian History was born in Bansko, Pirin Macedonia). >Summary: > >(1) The Truth is also a result of a long and well organised brainwash I have not used "brainwashed" in my posting, but it seems to be all around in the replies :-) I guess, "brainwashing" and "upbringing" could be used as substitutes (depending on the positive/negative conotation we want to imply). >(2) There are Macs-Bugarofils, Macs-Srbomans, even Macs-Grkomans (these >are also known as masochists), :-) > but there is no such thing as >Bulgarian-Macedonian Hmm... At least in Bulgaria there seem to be a huge portion of the population who identify exactly as Bulgarian-Macedonians. Some of them (e.g., Dr. Petar Dertliev - the president of the Bulgarian Social-Democratic Party who was born in Veles and almost was voted President of Bulgaria in 1990) put the figure to as high as 3 million (Macedonians and descendents). >or Greek-Macedonian, I mean among the common Macs, >of course. I guess, you mean R.o.Macedonia. >Being a BLG-Mac means >denying the whole Mac Nation - claiming that they are all brainwashed >Bulgs. If we apply the same logic, any sort of "pure" Mac would imply that there is nothing like Bulgarian-Macedonian, that any Bulgarian from the whole geographic region of Macedonia is just "a brainwashed 'pure' Macedonian". Do you think, there is a common ground ? One possible resolution would be simple respect for each others identity and stop using "brainwashing" (which certainly offends people). I know in Bulgaria there are more and less assertive Bulgarian-Macedonians. The former seem to believe that once their brothers (sometimes we are talking real relatives) on the other side of the border get to know "the true history" they would switch almost immediately their nationality to Bulgarian (I do not share such ideas, yet this is what they think). They do not accept the notion of separate Macedonian identity and take it as a deep personal offense. It seems the prosecutor general of Bulgaria, Ivan Tatarchev (brother's great grand-son of one of the founders of IMRO Dr. Hristo Tatarchev) has this viewpoint. What makes me feel good though is that, first, all BGL-Macs (no matter how hard-line) work for the independence of the Macedonian state. Second, they would never go to war against the Republic of Macedonia (according to the article in LA Times there were some villagers in Pirin Macedonia who were even getting ready to defend Macedonian independence). >I'm sure you wouldn't find all this offensive, Plamen. Not a little. I really appreciate this sort of discussions which help exchange different viewpoints on the Macedonian question. It is these kind of exchanges which can bring me (and, possibly, others) more knowledge on the subject which is muddled enough by various propagandas serving many interests. I also think that the history is not that important provided we can go over and if we start discussions of it with a common position on the present day situation. S`rdechen pozdrav, Plamen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 06:54:05 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Plamen Bliznakov Subject: Re: The Bulgarians speak On Thu, 24 Nov 1994 Slavko Mangovski wrote: |On Wed, 23 Nov 1994, Plamen Bliznakov wrote: | |> I really resent the attempt of Slavko etc. to bring the atmosphere of |> intolerance existing on alt.news.macedonia into MAKEDON L. | |Intolerance? What is this intolerance you are talking about, Plamen? I |have almost shown the utmost tolerance to all. I meant tolerance even for the interest some have to figure out more facts about the history of Macedonia. In the specific case this interest was clearly disassociated with notions of the nationality of the present majority in RoM (one and the other a 2 separate things). It is even more obvious that the person (Angel Dimov) is not even hinting about re-arranging the borders on the Balkans. If your reaction is what you call tolerance, I can only imagine what you (and others like you) would do to Macedonians (from the Republic of Macedonia) who would dare to declare themselves Bulgarian by nationality... |There are exceptions, |though, and that's what you are probably reffering to: I could never |stand, what we Macedonians call "prodadeni dushi" i.e. those who are |working for foreign interests in Macedonia. That must include the IBM reps in Macedonia :-) Seriously, do you _really_ believe that someone falsifying historical documents about Macedonia and disseminating those documents is working in the interest of the Republic of Macedonia ? And do you _really_ believe that someone exposing those falsifications is working against the interests of RoM ? Yes or no ? |> Moreover, Slavko is trying to start a dispute with a person who does not |> subscribe (as far as I know) to this mailing list | |Hmm, I was merely trying to make the discussion in public, as it should |be done. I think that we can all learn from it. Learn what ? Frankly, your unsolicited burst of anger on MAKEDON against Mr. Dimov looked to me like a witch hunting. It was like a "lesson" you wanted to teach anybody else who would dare to challenge your own position: "You are either with us or you are against us (and, hence, deserve to be excommunicated from the Macedonian community)". Your messages were full of hatred and labeling. All of the above were typical for the darkest ages of Communism ("you are either supporter of the Communism or you are a fascist and deserve a punishment"). |I had no idea the person |is not a subscriber. But that doesn't really matter that much since you |are able to substitute him nicely and I'm sure you can forward him all |messages. Unlike others, I always speak for myself only. I hope, this way others would not speak for me. As for the communication with Mr. Dimov - you seem to be the person who is in touch with him. I have never sent him a message or received a message from him and have known him only from his postings to a.n.m. (and the stuff you forwarded to this list). | (which itself is pretty |> cowardly). | |Cowerdly? I see that you have abandoned your newly devised strategy Wow ! What a plot has been uncovered ! "Newly devised strategy"... It's good that Slavko is watching ! :-) |called "so kroce, so blago" Must be what in Bulgarian is called "so krotce, so blago"... :-) I understand. |and decided on a frontal attack. Is this a new strategy though? Slavko, if you are trying to be funny, try harder. If you are serious, I am really disturbed. "Frontal attack", "strategy"... Wow ! You might be having bad dreams (maybe, even paranoia). |But let me explain to our readers what is this |strategy. Seeing that direct affronts like "You are Bulgarians" makes |Macedonians puke, as nicely put by one of our fellow netters, you have |decided to try "so kroce, so blago" If you still insist you are serious about it, could you refer "our readers" to a single case in which I personally have tried to teach any Macedonians they "are Bulgarians". Please, do not put words in my mouth, refer only to my postings in which I really did say that. |i.e. using historical documents totry |and convince educated Macedonians that they have been always Bulgarians. Do you really believe that showing somebody several documents can change his/her identity overnight ? I don't share such a view. On the other hand, if Macedonian identity is based only on restricting access to historical documents, it is really in trouble. |That the strategy has born fruit, we can all see with Mr. Dimov's |example. First, it seems Mr. Dimov appeared on a.n.m. just when I stopped posting to this newsgroup. So my influence over Mr. Dimov is zero. Second, from what was sent to this mailing list, I understood that Mr. Dimov has asked himself questions about Macedonian history (and why it was such a secret in SR Macedonia) long before he left the country (and was subjected to "bad" influence). |Rule #1. Always tell them that you respect them to be Macedonians. |They'll like you for that. | |Rule #2 Always through in some crap about everybody's right to be what |they want. They'll like you even more. Obviously, Slavko would prefer others not to respect Macedonians for what they are. Economic embargoes are good for Slavko. When thinks are bad for the Republic of Macedonia he can show what a patriot he is from the USA... | He is not angry that Daniel |> Veljanovski posted to a.n.m. excerpts from a "doctored" Carnegie report and as |> a result ridiculed in public himself and the idea of a distinct Macedonian |> nationality. | |By another 'Macedonian', I have to point out. He must have also been exposed to some Bulgarian strategies :-) It's good that the watch dog of Macedonian patriotism is awake and uncovered "the enemy among us" (another Stalinist technique). | No, Slavko seems himself to have been posting well clipped and |> taken out of context documents quite a bit recently. | |Yes, my "history" series, all lies fabricated in our specially designed |"Lie Factories". It's good that we figured that out. |BTW how do you |know that your Truth is the right one? Perhaps your communits govt. have |deceived you, perhaps our Truth is the right one, perhaps the truths are |many... Slavko, if you don't agree with a document, you are in your right to dispute the document, to explain why it was written in this way, etc. However, you don't do that. You would rather not make the document available to the public. This leads me to believe, that you are not interested in a complete understanding of the Truth. |> To Slavko a fellow Macedonian is a "Bulgarian agent" just because he speaks |> out defending a historical Truth. | |And what is that Truth, Plamen? There were no Macedonians before 1944, we |are all brainwashed. Well, let me tell you, my dear: we were never |Bulgarians, If I am not mistaken, once on a.n.m. you were talking about Macedonian people being formed as a mixture of several other peoples (Bulgarians included). Do you now claim that Macedonians have nothing to do with Bulgarians ? |and that is because of one simple fact: our popular |traditions are not Bulgarian but Macedonian. What do you understand under "traditions" ? If you mean things like religion, folklore, cuisine, etc., I think, you are making a weak point. There are more distinctive characteristics of the peoples on the Balkans (e.g., the Turk, Greek, Romanian or Albanian languages are clearly different) and even according to them we are _pretty_ close. However, as far as religion, cuisine, or even folklore are concerned, Balkan peoples are far less distinctive. |> Sure anyone (no matter who - Bulgarian, Greek, etc.) who claims to be |> Macedonian is Macedonian. You yourself demand to be referred to as |> Macedonian (not even "Slav-Macedonian") based on your own perception of |> yourself. Why would you deny the same right to anyone else ? |> |I won't dare to deny anybody anything. I'll be pissed though when |somebody is mocking my ethnicity and claims to be what I am. Do you claim a copyright on the name "Macedonian" and "Macedonia" ? |> It strikes me that you try to deny the right of Mr. Angel Dimov to call |> himself "Macedonian" and try to _accuse_ him of being "Bulgarian" even though |> he explained well enough he was born in what is today Republic of Macedonia, |> baptized in a church in Skopje, and has never been to Bulgaria. | |Again, I don't deny anybody anything. But, the above fits nicely your |theories as who the Macedonians are. So this is enough argument for you to deny Mr. Dimov Macedonian identity ? |> Here is another example of Slavko's perverted logic. Everyone who claims |> to be "pure" Macedonian is good, no matter if he/she is a Communist criminal |> or not. |> |You got that right. Colors don't interest me. Well, that's another thing we figured out. |We want to be friends with Bulgaria, but you must cnange your ways firts. Could you in short suggest in what way (first, second, third, etc.) Best regards to all readers of MAKEDON, Plamen Plamen.Bliznakov@ASU.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 07:48:44 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Plamen Bliznakov Subject: Re: Why should I apologise ? I have also noticed an appearance of a new thread on MAKEDON as a result of my message. It was a reaction to a reply by somebody called Peter Matevski . The guy obviously has some personality problems. Maybe, something is wrong with his sexual life and he needs to work it out through "dirty talking" :-) Anyway, I attach 2 messages which he sent me personally (hmm, I wonder if he will send me another one today, I am still ignoring the messages). Ladies, please do _not_ read them. I am sending them out only with the hope that there are some psychiatric professionals on this list, and they might be able to help the poor fellow... Some MAKEDONers expressed even shame they were of the same nationality as Peter. Don't be. I don't feel responsible for any criminal in America just because he might happen to be a Bulgarian. I would also like to address a couple of issues which Peter and Lubi Uzunovski tried to raise. On Fri, 25 Nov 1994 Peter Matevski wrote: >They have >demonstrated in millions against our people, which to me proves that >their views are not ones held by a small portion of their ignorant >people. Since Peter refers to Bulgarians (among other nations) could he or someone else give an example of an anti-Macedonian demonstration by Bulgarians (let's not talk about millions, let's just say hundreds) >While, in Australia they had the nerve to burn our churches, >and then some of u so-called macedonians want me to apologise. Could Peter (or anyone else) give an example of a Bulgarian in Australia burning _any_ church ? How about in another place ? >I am extremely disappointed (u can kick me off, I don't care, if this >is the view shared) I myself do not share the view that Peter should be kicked out. To me the net is a democracy (maybe even anarchy). So (quoting Ross Perot talking about himself on TV) "any idiot should be able to say what he wants". Peter is a clear case of a person who lacks elementary communication abilities. Yet if today we set a precedent and excommunicate him, tomorrow in another case somebody else might get kicked out just because we don't like what he/she says. As for MAKEDON degeneration, I don't believe it will happen. There are too few (at least, for now) like Peter and too many intelligent people. On Thu, 24 Nov 1994 Lubi Uzunovski writes... >Telling Plamen to fuck-off is one thing, >(probably well deserved), Could you make yourself clear, Lubi, what is the reason you think so ? >but accusing all our neighbours of not >being human etc... is just hot air. Believe it or not, there >actually are Greeks and Bulgarians who, despite the official >government line, actually have respect for people, and that >includes people who are Macedonian... then again there's those >like Plamen too. So I am not respecting people, according to you, Lubi ? Why do you think so ? Didn't I say right in the beginning of my message that I respect Macedonians for who they are (well, I probably disrespect some for the same thing :-)) >It's ironic that some of our neighbours, like Mr. Bliznakov for example, >who continually bombard us with stale 19th century propaganda have to- >date barely evoked any response from the "monks"... yet your choice >of inelegant language has sent the "sisters of mercy" into a frenzy. Lubi, you are becoming a master of euphemisms... "Inelegant language" is what you call it ? :-) How elegantly said ! :-) >Alas, I didn't have the benifit of a monastary upbringing, so your >language doesn't offend my sensibilities, and while I can't agree >with much of the things you've said, there are parts that resonate >a chord within me. I am sending more parts which can resonate even more chords within you :-) Best regards to (most of the) readers of MAKEDON, Plamen Plamen.Bliznakov@ASU.edu --- start of included uncensored messages --- --- an empty screen follows --- From: "Peter Matevski" Organization: Business, Uni Of Technology,Sydney To: bliznako@envmsa.eas.asu.edu Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 18:28:44 GMT+900 Subject: Hey cunt, I'm talkin to you.. X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: PMail v3.0 (R1a) Message-Id: Listen up you piece of scummy shit, Don't bother coming and bringing your runny nosed mother fucking cock sucking sorry little excuse of a sad nationality based hairy lebanese arsed face into my mailing list and threaten me. What are you goonna do cunt? You're so chicken shit that you didn't even give me a place or time. This means that your a wimp - you fucken WUZ. If you're fair dinkum then you'll be a man and not a hairy chicken shit Bulgarian like your mother, and you'll meet me face to face, so that we can sort out our so called "differences". If you can't deliver on your threats, then don't make them. This isn't no junior little league where threats are made without any regards for their meaning, if you say something on the internet, you'd better mean it boy. I'll be waiting to hear from your scared little poofta arse for a witty reply, you turkish sperm eating butt pirate reject. From: "Peter Matevski" Organization: Business, Uni Of Technology,Sydney To: bliznako@envmsa.eas.asu.edu Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 15:19:35 GMT+900 Subject: Really Now! X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: PMail v3.0 (R1a) Message-Id: Dear Bulgarian, I recently read one of your messages on OUR mailing list and was disturbed to find you distorting our history. Listen cunt, I can't tolerate u or your fucken scumy slav-turk people. The bulgarian, serbian and greek people have for years lied to the world about the existence of the macedonian people. I have relatives in your fucked up country who have never been given basic rights. For instance, the right to call themselves macedonian! the right to go to a macedonian church instead of a half turkic, half slavic tribe of fuck-wits. Listen, if u dislike what u read on our mailing list, then fuck off. Later, Peter Matevski Long Live the Macedonians of PIRIN, especially Mr Solunski ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 10:07:30 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Ivan Grozdanov Subject: Democracy (im)possible? COMMUNISM + TRADITIONAL ORTHODOXISM + ISLAM = DEMOCRACY??? Hi everyone on MAKEDON: I've been reading with interest most of the discussions on this list and I find them a good way of exchanging ideas, concerns, etc. Let me briefly introduce myself. I am from Skopje and I am currently a Fulbright postdoc visitor at Arizona State University. I will be returning to Skopje in June '95. I am 44 and probably older than most of the participents on this list; I am also an evangekical/protestant christian, which is a rarity in Macedonia; so I might present a somewhat different and broader view on the prospects for democracy in Macedonia. Most of the discussions on the list are dealing with the identity of the Macedonian people and their relationship with the Albanians, etc. These are very relevant issues and should be discussed. But with many of you I have also seen a concern for democracy and prosperity in Macedonia and I'm affraid the above issues will not bring these even when resolved sucessfully. Here I articulate my concerns/views for prosperiry in Macedonia. Much of what I have to say would also apply to Serbia, Bulgaria, Albania and Greece, too, but my focus is Macedonia. The three most influential ideas in Macedonia are Communism, Traditional Orthodoxism and Islam. Anyone of these by itself is an antithesis to democracy and prosperity, and we have all three of them! (1) Communism, on a world-wide scale has proven to be despotic (Mao, Stallin, Chaushesku, Tito...), self-destructive in economy, and lacking basic moral values. In no single occasion it has produced democracy and prosperity. On the contrary, it has ruined the achievements in once develloped countries like East Germany, Checkoslovakia, Hungary... Not until Communism/marxism is totally abolished in Macedonia (this will obviously take some time), can we hope for a better future. Although things are not as bad as they used to be, still, Mr Kiro Gligorov and Mr Stojan Andov - the two most powerful men in Macedonia, are representatives of the old communist ellite who will never be able to un-brainwash themselves and their ways of understanding democracy and prosperity; and of course, they continue to influence younger people like Crvenkoski, Tito Petkoski, etc. (2) Traditional Orthodoxism is another unfavorable element to democracy and prosperity in Macedonia (also in Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece, Russia, Romania, etc). Unlike the Protestant movement which emerged through the Reformation,and has overcomed nationalism, and unlike the Catholic Church which has remained international, the Traditional Orthodoxism has remained unreformed, at the level of traditions, superstitions, paganism and nationalism. And not until it undergoes a strong reformation, we can hope to see an open door to democracy and prosperity. (3) Islam is no more favorable to democracy and prosperity than is Communism or Traditional Orthodoxism. No Islamic country has ever achieved a significant level of democracy and prosperity. Islam is discriminatory and intolerant to any other religion, and even in its mild form it despises women, education, etc. It has jihad in its basic doctrines and it calls for suicidal attacks on christians, atheists, etc. (Just a few days ago I watched excerpts from several Islamic Conferences held in the USA. The main message was : "Alah demands blood... blood must flow everywhere... Alah demands hands and heads to be cut off... strike the ungodly everewhere, kill them..."). To conclude: What can you and I as individuals do for the good of Macedonia? Well, I'd say, those of you who are communists need to find yourselves a more progressive, more realistic and more ethical philosophy for your lives. Those of us who claim to be Christians, need to engage in reforming/educating the Christian community in Macedonia; show them that Christianity is not traditions, it is not a national(istic) religion, it is a godly, just, unselfish, caring, loving lifestyle. It is knowing and practicing the Bible standards, not following pagan rituals. And those of you who are Muslims - well, you should at least beware of Fundamentalism and be more analytical in what you believe and practice. If each one of us in Macedonia would start doing something in these directions, I believe democracy and progress will follow soon. I'd be glad to hear any responces on my thoughts. So hristijanski pozdrav, Ivan G. "Se' shto sakate da vi pravat lugjeto vam - pravete im go i vie nim!" - Evangelie po Mateja 7:12. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 12:43:07 EST Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Zoran Mitrovski Subject: Re: Whats the story? Sasho Kalajdzievski writes: > Z.Mitrovski: where is the "blackmail"? O.K., maybe I didn't use the right word for it. I think you said smth like "He better appologize, or he'll be kicked off" . When someone appologizes not sincerely but only under pressure, that "appology" is purposeless and meaningless. The appology should come from himself when (or if) he finds out in how deep of a trouble his brain was at that point (Very deep, I think, especially after reading his mail to Plamen). I think that there are far more of us who are reasonable enough not to allow for your pessimistic predictions on makedon to become reality. I say give those two guys a chance and some time to think about what they did, read the responses, talk with their girlfriends and mothers...then spend some more time swallowing their pathetic prides, and start acting and thinking more reasonably. There's always hope. Maybe my infinite faith in the human soul is wrong, and maybe you have more experience with these matters. So if what I wrote above are tunes already heard in your ears and you KNOW that it won't work, then I can't stop you from doing what you intended. Cheers, Zoran ;^) P.S. I say, if they continue the abuse even after experiencing all these responses (one more stupidity is needed), then they should be kicked off! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 20:51:47 -0500 Reply-To: canosk83@npeeserv.eelab.newpaltz.edu Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Mentor Cana Subject: Re: Democracy (im)possible? In-Reply-To: from "Ivan Grozdanov" at Nov 26, 94 10:07:30 am You, Ivan Grozdanov, in your message wrote: } } (3) Islam is no more favorable to democracy and prosperity than }is Communism or Traditional Orthodoxism. No Islamic country has ever }achieved a significant level of democracy and prosperity. Islam is }discriminatory and intolerant to any other religion, and even in its mild }form it despises women, education, etc. It has jihad in its basic I'm very surprised that someone believes what west says about Islam as truth. That Islam is discriminatory it is not TRUE. PROOF: most of the Balkan peninsula was under Turkish domination for over 500 years. The christians where never forced to change their religion. It is a fact that there where manyyy churches built in that period in Macedonia, Serbia, Albania etc. Also, for the first time in the history(1400 years ago) Islam gave full rights to women to inherit property, manage their own business, ask for divorce if needed etc. As for the education that is not true. Education is the most important part of Islam. According to Qur'an, it is the duty of every muslim, male and female, to get educated with knowledge that will be beneficial to the society. Yes it is true that many different times the ideas of Islam have been misunderstood by its followers. But, this doesn't make Islam discriminatory and intolerant!!!!!!!! }doctrines and it calls for suicidal attacks on christians, atheists, etc. }(Just a few days ago I watched excerpts from several Islamic Conferences }held in the USA. The main message was : "Alah demands blood... blood must }flow everywhere... Alah demands hands and heads to be cut off... strike }the ungodly everywhere, kill them..."). } And yes, Jihad is the most misunderstood idea of Islam. Jihad doesn't mean killing and terrorism. It just simply means struggle in the way of GOD. Which means the fight against yourself to become a good believer and achieve paradise. The program that you saw a couple of days ago was the propaganda of some people who took things out of contest. You can get any speech by any person, start juggling with his words, and make up anything you want. These people had no clue about Islam and what Islam means. The term Islamic fundamentalism is UNKNOWN to muslims. It was coined by the west as a result of the fear from the unknown. Generally said, the best way to understand an idea is to go to the source. No person can understand Islam by reading western written books. You have to read books written by muslim scholars to understand Islam. And then you will see that Jihad means something else then what west claims to be. There is verse in Qur'an that says:" There is no compulsion in religion..." How is this intolerant! There has been peace among Muslims and Christians in Macedonia for hundreds of years. WE HAVE TO MAINTAIN this peace. We can't allow anyone from outside to shatter and destroy our understanding. PEACE & LOVE....... forget the hate and the stupid propaganda ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 00:32:00 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Lubi Uzunovski Organization: CRS Online (Toronto, Ontario) Subject: Why should I apologize? in Message-Id: <9411251049.AA29273@portnoy.canrem.com> M Petkovski >Lubi, you missed the point. It is not a question of the language >being elegant. You say "fuck-off" when you run out of arguments. Well, I'm not so sure that I'm the one who missed the point here but in any case usage of the term "fuck-off" isn't exclusively restricted to those times when you run out of arguments. For example if someone were to continually piss all over your right to self-identify, even though you were armed with some pretty solid arguments, then, IMO, the old F___-OFF is more than appropriate. Granted, Peter made some hot-headed comments about our neighbours, but they were so out-to-lunch that it's unreasonable to take his comments seriously. NO, what's happened here is that Plamen has been irritating those who bother to pay attention, and for the most part has been getting off without so much as an argument... although how does one argue with an automaton. Peter just blew a fuse. Plamen's activities are truly sinister, but alas, he didn't say the magic words... did he? Lubi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 00:37:00 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Lubi Uzunovski Organization: CRS Online (Toronto, Ontario) Subject: Re: Macedonians only in, Message-Id: <9411250905.AA26865@portnoy.canrem.com> Hari Radin wrote, >Sasho Kalajdzievski >>How miserable. I request that this person apologizes or be removed >>from the list. >I absolutely agree with Sasho. Postings like this should not be >tolerated on MAKEDON. I appeal to the moderators to ask again Peter >Matevski to apologize to Plamen, and if not to prevent Peter of >further posting to the group. I have difficulty with your suggestion that Peter Matevski should be prevented from further posting to this group... much difficulty. Where has your intolerance been over the last few months while Plamen Bliznakov has been droning on about Macedonians? Plamen makes no bones about his position. He claims (redundantly) that Macedonians were only invented as a result of Tito's political aspirations. Plamen is essentially claiming that you [fucking] Macedonians were recently invented by Tito and before then you didn't [fucking] exist. I'm sure I would be out of line if I hinted that perhaps Plamen should alter his name to Plamenos Bliznakidis. And of course, Plamen doesn't swear. I'm very grateful to Petre for calling a spade a spade. While I have no doubt that some have been waltzing through this list in a semi-trance, Petre at least bothered to listen and understand just what Plamen has been saying. It isn't new, it's been happening for quite some time. By your reasoning, if Petar is guilty of possessing a poor attitude toward his neighbours, then he is guilty of doing it once. Plamen on the other hand has probably denied our existence hundreds of times. So when you ask Plamen to apologize to Petar for denying the ethnic existence of Petar's father and grandfather, not to mention the rest of us, then I'll regard your suggestion as more substantial, and somewhat less hypocritical. Lubi P.S. Are you related to Mike Radin from Adelaide? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 02:26:03 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Democracy (im)possible? May I suggest, Ivan, that you read Lord Bertrand Russell's WHY I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN? One of the reasons *he* cites for his view is that Christian countries (especially Protestant Prussia-Germany) launched the two greatest wars in human history (WWI & WWII). In what sense then is Protestant Christianity more irenic than Orthodox Christianity or Islam? I hope I may criticize Protestantism as I'm also a Protestant although not a fundamentalist Protestant. -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 12:54:12 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: The Bulgarian TRUTH In-Reply-To: <199411261229.HAA21304@tequesta.gate.net> On Sat, 26 Nov 1994, Plamen Bliznakov wrote: > Dear All: > > I found out that while I was celebrating the Turkey Day (Denot na Turcija :-)) > in between my research and class work, my message was steering heated response > on MAKEDON (even the Albanian thread does not appear any longer :-)). I am > hesitant to follow-up for two reasons. First, some of the topics appear > inappropriate (I know MAKEDON is supposed to be mostly concerned with > contemporary events in the Republic of Macedonia). Second, I am pretty > busy these days (the semester is near its end and I have to do a lot on > my research before X-mass !). I guess, though, once I replied the first > time to Slavko's messages I will have to do it a couple more times :-) > > On Wed, 23 Nov 1994 M Petkovski wrote: > > >> On Wednesday November 23, Plamen Bliznakov wrote: > >> > >> Right in the beginning to avoid any misunderstandings I want to state clearly > >> that I respect the right of Macedonians to have their own identity. I am _not > _ > >> claiming that all Macedonians nowadays are merely another brand of Bulgarians > >> since to me a nationality of a person is what he/she claims to be. > > I hope this was clear enough and everyone on the list has seen it (so I can > save some bandwidth by not writing it all over again in each message :-)). I > also hope I don't have to extend this disclaimer by adding what else I am _not_ > claiming (e.g., that I do _not_ want Bulgaria to annex Republic of Macedonia, > and other nonsense like that). There are many things I am _not_ claiming, so > let's just concentrate what I _am_ claiming. We all know what you say, Plamen, but it's what you do that counts. And you have systematically and persistently been promoting your, or the Bulgarian, understanding of history to anybody that would listen. That, in other words, is propaganda. And by doing that while in the same time saying you're our friend and respect us makes us think that there is something fishy. Besides, we have history who tells us that you have been doing it for a long time. > > >Dear Plamen, nashi, vashi & everybody else on the list > > > >I like the above quotation. Once you opened your letter that way, > >everything else you said was an objective view, i.e. fighting for The > >Truth. I presume that The Truth in this case are > > It might have been too abstract in this context to talk about The Truth (with > capital T) . Here is some clarification. To me The Truth is the set of facts > (we might call them "truths") reflecting our world. That means The Truth > exists independently of our will and knowledge of it, and it is changing > (evolving) - since the world itself is changing. We might or might not like > some of the facts, we might give them different interpretations and > explanations. If, however, we try to deny the existence of certain facts we, > IMHO, are putting ourselves into a deep shit. That's, in short, my > understanding of The Truth (without going into much of phylosophical discussions > which do not belong to this list). > > In that sense, I did not talk about "The Bulgarian Truth". I did not even mean > "The Truth on the Macedonian Question", I meant "The Truth in general". Of > course, certain facts might support a specific theory or policy, others might > be against it, but this was not my point. > The Truth again! By insisting on your Truth, regardless whether you think that's not the Bulgarian but the Real one, you uncover your attempts to convert us to that Truth, and that is called shameless propaganda. > In the specific case, there is a historic document (Carnegie Commission report) > which was altered by someone (maybe, a publisher in Skopje ?). The altered > text was posted by Daniel Veljanovski (he might have not known about the > changes in the original text). Then there was a person who noticed the > differences (Angel Dimov) and he "blew the whistle". Instead of getting upset > in the first place over the falsification (which when discovered sure does not > benefit the idea of the separate Macedonian identity), Slavko gets upset that > Angel brought the attention of the public to it. This is what strikes me. It > would strike me just as much if a researcher would cheat and dismiss > experimental results which don't fit his/her theory, and then aggressively go > after someone who did not "keep his mouth shut" about the falsification. > However, for Slavko this role does not seem to be shameful. Moreover, he seems > to be taking pride in it. > Let's examine this truth and what Daniel, Dimov and myself did. First of all lets look at the conditions when the document was written: since there was no Macedonian state, the Commission based their report entirely on Bulgarian and Greeks documents. Those, and other documents, based the ethicity of the population according to their adherence to the various churches, and we all know what churches were there. Looking at the names of he members of the Commission we can safely deduct that they were not able to communicate with the locals and could not verify the information. If we see today that the population in question, supported by other contemporary to the Report documents, did not, and does not, identify themselves as Bulgarians but as Macedonians, we can arrive at what Daniel did. He simply, while posting, edited the document and made it more accurate. He, of course, shoud've mentioned what he did, but that could've been counter productive, and irrelevant, to the discussion he was having. Now, let's see what Dimov did: he simply expressed his Bulgarian feelings and cried murder. What I did: I supported Daniel and blasted Dimov and called him what he is. Another comment here: the above does not mean that there were no Bulgarians in Macedonia. I'm sure there were, and are (I know that for fact). To rephrase what you Plamen, and others, said: there were Bulgarians there where there were bulgarization efforts. and lastly: I'm against editing documents as that can backfire. Documents like the Carnegie report should be left to historians. > >various documents > >showing that in turkish times and even before the WW2 a significant > >part of the Macedonian people declared themselves or even feeled as > >Bulgarians. > > Which according to my understanding of "nationality" (see above) means they > _were Bulgarians_. Of course, we can start a discussion of the terms > "nationality", "ethnicity", "race", "language", "dialect", etc. (and we > might never agree on them). > > >The BG-church joined by the entire > >BG establishment later, was present in Mac for a long, long time. And > >it was time when it really counted: when people trusted priests, when > >the religion was far more important than the nation (as far as the > >Turks were concerned, there were no Macs, no Bulgs, only "gjaurs"). > > I agree completely. However, I would also make a point that at the > time there was no Bulgarian state (unlike Greek or Serbian). The > revival of the Bulgarian Exarchiate in Macedonia was not a matter > of external influence, it depended upon the local population. The > clerics themselves were in the vast majority of cases Macedonian. > Actually, in many respects Macedonia was leading the Bulgarian revival > (Father Paisi who wrote Slav-Bulgarian History was born in Bansko, > Pirin Macedonia). > There you go again, Plamen. We have to mention here that there was no Bulgarian nationality before Paisi as all unedicated Bulgarians indentofied themselves as "christians" and those educated as "Greeks". The embrace of the Exarchate in Macedonia was a protest against hellenization, as was the birth of national feeling in Bulgaria. Very soon after indipendent Macedonian church movemenet arose but was ruthlessly destroyed by your forefathers. Please stop your propaganda. > >Summary: > > > >(1) The Truth is also a result of a long and well organised brainwash > > I have not used "brainwashed" in my posting, but it seems to be all > around in the replies :-) I guess, "brainwashing" and "upbringing" > could be used as substitutes (depending on the positive/negative > conotation we want to imply). > I guess you know no limits. > >(2) There are Macs-Bugarofils, Macs-Srbomans, even Macs-Grkomans (these > >are also known as masochists), > > :-) > > > but there is no such thing as > >Bulgarian-Macedonian > > Hmm... At least in Bulgaria there seem to be a huge portion of the population > who identify exactly as Bulgarian-Macedonians. No, they identify themselves as Bulgarians. They are encourgaed to call themsleves as Macedonians as a weapon against real Macedonian nationalism. Very smart. I just wonder who started using it first: you or the Greeks. Some of them (e.g., Dr. Petar > Dertliev - the president of the Bulgarian Social-Democratic Party who was > born in Veles and almost was voted President of Bulgaria in 1990) put the > figure to as high as 3 million (Macedonians and descendents). > >or Greek-Macedonian, I mean among the common Macs, > >of course. > > I guess, you mean R.o.Macedonia. > > >Being a BLG-Mac means > >denying the whole Mac Nation - claiming that they are all brainwashed > >Bulgs. > > If we apply the same logic, any sort of "pure" Mac would imply that there is > nothing like Bulgarian-Macedonian, that any Bulgarian from the whole geographic > region of Macedonia is just "a brainwashed 'pure' Macedonian". Do you think, > there is a common ground ? One possible resolution would be simple respect for > each others identity and stop using "brainwashing" (which certainly offends > people). I know in Bulgaria there are more and less assertive > Bulgarian-Macedonians. The former seem to believe that once their brothers > (sometimes we are talking real relatives) on the other side of the border get > to know "the true history" they would switch almost immediately their > nationality to Bulgarian (I do not share such ideas, yet this is what they > think). Come on, Plamen! Whom are you kidding! They do not accept the notion of separate Macedonian identity and take > it as a deep personal offense. It seems the prosecutor general of Bulgaria, > Ivan Tatarchev (brother's great grand-son of one of the founders of IMRO Dr. > Hristo Tatarchev) has this viewpoint. Plamen, you really must think we suck (no wonder, with people like Dimov). You know quite well what he thinks. He is also the main persecutor(sic) of OMO Ilinden. What makes me feel good though is that, > first, all BGL-Macs (no matter how hard-line) work for the independence of the > Macedonian state. Second, they would never go to war against the Republic of > Macedonia (according to the article in LA Times there were some villagers in > Pirin Macedonia who were even getting ready to defend Macedonian independence). > Yeah, we know. > >I'm sure you wouldn't find all this offensive, Plamen. > > Not a little. I really appreciate this sort of discussions which help exchange > different viewpoints on the Macedonian question. It is these kind of exchanges > which can bring me (and, possibly, others) more knowledge on the subject which > is muddled enough by various propagandas serving many interests. I also think > that the history is not that important provided we can go over and if we start > discussions of it with a common position on the present day situation. > > > S`rdechen pozdrav, > > Plamen > Slavko ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 14:00:45 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Slavko Mangovski Subject: Re: The Bulgarians speak In-Reply-To: <199411261356.IAA34965@tequesta.gate.net> On Sat, 26 Nov 1994, Plamen Bliznakov wrote: > On Thu, 24 Nov 1994 Slavko Mangovski wrote: > > |On Wed, 23 Nov 1994, Plamen Bliznakov wrote: > | > |> I really resent the attempt of Slavko etc. to bring the atmosphere of > |> intolerance existing on alt.news.macedonia into MAKEDON L. > | > |Intolerance? What is this intolerance you are talking about, Plamen? I > |have almost shown the utmost tolerance to all. > > I meant tolerance even for the interest some have to figure out more facts > about the history of Macedonia. We already know the "facts", your facts, that is. In the specific case this interest was clearly > disassociated with notions of the nationality of the present majority in RoM > (one and the other a 2 separate things). Same thing, dear, same thing i.e. the nationality of the 'present majority' and the previous one. It is even more obvious that the > person (Angel Dimov) is not even hinting about re-arranging the borders on the > Balkans. These are stories for small kids, Plamen. After you 'convert' us all to the 'truth', what will stop you from the 'union'. You must think we are really stupid. If your reaction is what you call tolerance, I can only imagine what > you (and others like you) would do to Macedonians (from the Republic of > Macedonia) who would dare to declare themselves Bulgarian by nationality... > Me? I would do what we presently do: give them every right. That leaves you: what you do to those who declare themselves Macedonians in Bulgaria? Use special forces, harrass them, oppress them, take away their passports. > |There are exceptions, > |though, and that's what you are probably reffering to: I could never > |stand, what we Macedonians call "prodadeni dushi" i.e. those who are > |working for foreign interests in Macedonia. > > That must include the IBM reps in Macedonia :-) > Very funny. I wish we had IBM as a neighbour. > Seriously, do you _really_ believe that someone falsifying historical documents > about Macedonia and disseminating those documents is working in the interest of > the Republic of Macedonia ? Why not, provided thay are falsified. If we do that i.e falsfy, then we learnt it from you. Do you think your fasifiers worked for Bulgaria's interstes? You bet. You use them as weapons today. And do you _really_ believe that someone exposing > those falsifications is working against the interests of RoM ? Yes or no ? > Definetely yes, provided there are fasifications. Let me ask you something: your brother is accused of falsifying. Would you testify againts him? Tough choice, and a moral dilemma. > |> Moreover, Slavko is trying to start a dispute with a person who does not > |> subscribe (as far as I know) to this mailing list > | > |Hmm, I was merely trying to make the discussion in public, as it should > |be done. I think that we can all learn from it. > > Learn what ? Learn about you and Mr. Dimov, and you learn about us. Frankly, your unsolicited burst of anger on MAKEDON against Mr. > Dimov looked to me like a witch hunting. "Witch hunting"? A bit strong. It was like a "lesson" you wanted to > teach anybody else who would dare to challenge your own position: "You are > either with us or you are against us (and, hence, deserve to be excommunicated > from the Macedonian community)". Your overblowing it, Plamen. I don't decide who is and who is not member of the Macedonian community. Every one decides for himself. Your messages were full of hatred and > labeling. All of the above were typical for the darkest ages of Communism ("you > are either supporter of the Communism or you are a fascist and deserve a > punishment"). > Really? Was everybody Communist in Bulgaria? I doubt it. You are exaggerating again. > |I had no idea the person > |is not a subscriber. But that doesn't really matter that much since you > |are able to substitute him nicely and I'm sure you can forward him all > |messages. > > Unlike others, I always speak for myself only. I haven't noticed. You say exactly the same things as the others. I hope, this way others would > not speak for me. As for the communication with Mr. Dimov - you seem to be the > person who is in touch with him. I have never sent him a message or received a > message from him and have known him only from his postings to a.n.m. (and the > stuff you forwarded to this list). > What's the difference? You both subscribe to the same philosophy, you both say the same things, as shown in this thread. > | (which itself is pretty > |> cowardly). > | > |Cowerdly? I see that you have abandoned your newly devised strategy > > Wow ! What a plot has been uncovered ! "Newly devised strategy"... > It's good that Slavko is watching ! :-) > Watching? I had to be blind not to notice it: it's all over the Internet, the media and elsewhere. > |called "so kroce, so blago" > > Must be what in Bulgarian is called "so krotce, so blago"... :-) I understand. > Could be: I was trying to write in Bulgarian so pardon my ignorance. > |and decided on a frontal attack. Is this a new strategy though? > > Slavko, if you are trying to be funny, try harder. If you are serious, > I am really disturbed. "Frontal attack", "strategy"... Wow ! You might > be having bad dreams (maybe, even paranoia). > Could be, but I consider myself quite realistic and I see what you and your compatriots are doing. Add to that the MPO, Dimov and several others, sprinkle over it some history and voila! You have a nice structure. > |But let me explain to our readers what is this > |strategy. Seeing that direct affronts like "You are Bulgarians" makes > |Macedonians puke, as nicely put by one of our fellow netters, you have > |decided to try "so kroce, so blago" > > If you still insist you are serious about it, could you refer "our readers" > to a single case in which I personally have tried to teach any Macedonians > they "are Bulgarians". Hmm, perhaps I was not clear enough. You haven't (they'll puke, remember?) Please, do not put words in my mouth, refer only to > my postings in which I really did say that. > I don't. > |i.e. using historical documents totry > |and convince educated Macedonians that they have been always Bulgarians. > > Do you really believe that showing somebody several documents can change > his/her identity overnight ? Not overnight. But look at Dimov. I don't share such a view. On the other > hand, if Macedonian identity is based only on restricting access to > historical documents, it is really in trouble. > Not really. Take a look at OMO Ilinden. > |That the strategy has born fruit, we can all see with Mr. Dimov's > |example. > > First, it seems Mr. Dimov appeared on a.n.m. just when I stopped posting > to this newsgroup. So my influence over Mr. Dimov is zero. That could be but we're not talking here about your influence only. Second, from > what was sent to this mailing list, I understood that Mr. Dimov has asked > himself questions about Macedonian history (and why it was such a secret in > SR Macedonia) long before he left the country (and was subjected to > "bad" influence). > > |Rule #1. Always tell them that you respect them to be Macedonians. > |They'll like you for that. > | > |Rule #2 Always through in some crap about everybody's right to be what > |they want. They'll like you even more. > > Obviously, Slavko would prefer others not to respect Macedonians for what they > are. Economic embargoes are good for Slavko. And how did you arrive to that conclusion? Only an idiot would think embargoes are good, especially if he's the victim. When thinks are bad for the > Republic of Macedonia he can show what a patriot he is from the USA... > Aha, this bad Slavko. He's enjoying himself in the USA, where people don't work long hours and are overpaid, spends his time on the beach and then dares to 'meddle' in attepmts to expose the poor Macedonians to the Truth. > | He is not angry that Daniel > |> Veljanovski posted to a.n.m. excerpts from a "doctored" Carnegie report and a > s > |> a result ridiculed in public himself and the idea of a distinct Macedonian > |> nationality. > | > |By another 'Macedonian', I have to point out. > > He must have also been exposed to some Bulgarian strategies :-) It's good > that the watch dog of Macedonian patriotism is awake and uncovered "the > enemy among us" (another Stalinist technique). > Yep, in RM we had special Stalinist schools where I was educated. > | No, Slavko seems himself to have been posting well clipped and > |> taken out of context documents quite a bit recently. > | > |Yes, my "history" series, all lies fabricated in our specially designed > |"Lie Factories". > > It's good that we figured that out. > You "figured" that before reading them. > |BTW how do you > |know that your Truth is the right one? Perhaps your communits govt. have > |deceived you, perhaps our Truth is the right one, perhaps the truths are > |many... > > Slavko, if you don't agree with a document, you are in your right to > dispute the document, to explain why it was written in this way, etc. > However, you don't do that. You would rather not make the document > available to the public. This leads me to believe, that you are not > interested in a complete understanding of the Truth. > You're right, I couldn't give a damn about YOUR i.e. Bulgarian "Truth". I know much more about Bulgaria then you know about Macedonia so perhaps you're the one with the lack of understanding. > |> To Slavko a fellow Macedonian is a "Bulgarian agent" just because he speaks > |> out defending a historical Truth. > | > |And what is that Truth, Plamen? There were no Macedonians before 1944, we > |are all brainwashed. Well, let me tell you, my dear: we were never > |Bulgarians, > > If I am not mistaken, once on a.n.m. you were talking about Macedonian > people being formed as a mixture of several other peoples (Bulgarians > included). Do you now claim that Macedonians have nothing to do with > Bulgarians ? > Yeah, but I was not reffering to a particular period of history but rather to the result of a historical process. No, I don't claim that we have nothing to do with you. We have similar cultures, history as we have with all our Balkan neighbours and similar language as we have with the Serbs. > |and that is because of one simple fact: our popular > |traditions are not Bulgarian but Macedonian. > > What do you understand under "traditions" ? If you mean things like religion, > folklore, cuisine, etc., I think, you are making a weak point. There are more > distinctive characteristics of the peoples on the Balkans (e.g., the Turk, > Greek, Romanian or Albanian languages are clearly different) and even according > to them we are _pretty_ close. However, as far as religion, cuisine, or even > folklore are concerned, Balkan peoples are far less distinctive. > By traditions I meant that we don't identify ourselves as Bulgarians. I have lived in RM for 27 years and surely would have noticed our "Bulgarian" roots if they existed, especially haveing a Bulgarian mother. But there is no such tradition, instead there is a strong Macedonian one. > |> Sure anyone (no matter who - Bulgarian, Greek, etc.) who claims to be > |> Macedonian is Macedonian. You yourself demand to be referred to as > |> Macedonian (not even "Slav-Macedonian") based on your own perception of > |> yourself. Why would you deny the same right to anyone else ? > |> > |I won't dare to deny anybody anything. I'll be pissed though when > |somebody is mocking my ethnicity and claims to be what I am. > > Do you claim a copyright on the name "Macedonian" and "Macedonia" ? What am I now, something like the UN? I cannot claim any copyright but I can express strong suspicion when a Greek or a Bulgarian starts claiming he or she is a Macedonian. > > |> It strikes me that you try to deny the right of Mr. Angel Dimov to call > |> himself "Macedonian" and try to _accuse_ him of being "Bulgarian" even though > |> he explained well enough he was born in what is today Republic of Macedonia, > |> baptized in a church in Skopje, and has never been to Bulgaria. > | > |Again, I don't deny anybody anything. But, the above fits nicely your > |theories as who the Macedonians are. > > So this is enough argument for you to deny Mr. Dimov Macedonian identity ? > How can deny enybody anything? I can express my opinion only and in the case of Mr. Dimov I was more then clear. > |> Here is another example of Slavko's perverted logic. Everyone who claims > |> to be "pure" Macedonian is good, no matter if he/she is a Communist criminal > |> or not. > |> > |You got that right. Colors don't interest me. > > Well, that's another thing we figured out. > It wasn't that hard, was it? > |We want to be friends with Bulgaria, but you must cnange your ways firts. > > Could you in short suggest in what way (first, second, third, etc.) > You should forget about your Truth, provided you want to be friends with us. The Truth is relative and subject to manipulations and as such should be a topic for historical research only. Every time you try to show us your Truth, you're guilty of propaganda. Also, respect human rights, as we do. > Best regards to all readers of MAKEDON, > > Plamen > Plamen.Bliznakov@ASU.edu > Slavko ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 17:38:36 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Whats the story? If a non-Macedonian could be permitted a reply, I would hope that no one would be removed from MAKEDON-L, since if they were the educational value of the List would be diminished. After all, the persons violating 'Nettiquette, i.e., the courtesy expected of those using the MAKEDON-L, made a mistake--and "let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Or as Shakespeare said, "If every man be treated according to his just desserts, who should 'scape whipping?" i.e., if each of us were treated as we deserved to be treated, who would escape whipping? As an outsider who has learned a great deal from the MAKEDON-L, I have learned even from the unfortunate and at times scatalogical tone of the few who violated the courtesy expected of 'Net users. The solution is for *Macedonians" to do what they did, express their indignation at the offender explaining to him how his tone and remarks *hurt the Macedonian cause* by diverting attention away from the arguments made (which were often valid at least to a neophyte) to the *form* and *tone* in which the arguments were couched. Then let us all be friends if possible and continue the *very con- structive discussions which make MAKEDON-L so valuable a resource, but do it in a kind and courteous way so that no one has his or her feelings hurt unnecessarily. That way we all learn from one another, for as Ralph Waldo Emerson observed in one of his essays: "Every man I meet is my superior in some way--in that I learn of him." Please don't drop anyone from MAKEDON-L! It would weaken the List! Pozdrav. Glen -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 17:24:13 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Ivan Grozdanov Subject: Re: Democracy (im)possible? In-Reply-To: <01HJYDLWYCC29I54P9@asu.edu> Dear Glen, Thank you for your interest in my communication. Of course you can criticize Protestantism, and so could I, but then you should use your own arguments and take a stand, and not let B. Russel speak for you. Yes, I am familiar with his book and my comment is: 'If one is looking for an excuse not to be a Christian (or anything else for that matter), he/she can always find one'. I am not aware of any serious claims by historians or politicians that Protestantism is to be blamed for WWI & WWII. Are you? This would be something new to me and perhaps to most of the world as well. To the best of my knowledge, Hitler and his followers may have been inspired by Nietze and Darwinism, but certainly not a bit by Protestantism. Can you think of anything in Protestantism that would make you do what Hitler did? Are you implicitly accusing the Protestants of Germany for siding with Hitler? That would be another news to me and perhaps to most people as well. I find your statement "in what sense then is Protestant Christianity more irenic than Orthodox Christianity or Islam?" an unfortunate and a sad one, for the following reasons: - it implies that, for example, Luther and his Reformation did no more good than, say, Hommeini and his Islamic Revolution or Stalin (an Orthodox graduate, if I am not wrong) and his Communism, or that Lincoln was no better than Sadam Hussein, etc. - it also implies that democracy and progress in those countries where Protestants have been/or are influential (like USA, for example) are no better than in say, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq or former Soviet Union, Romania, etc. I will need more facts before I could accept this. - on a more personal level, it raises the question just why are you declaring yourself as a Protestant if this is no better than Islam? It is like claiming to be a mathematician, but do not see just why would 2+2=4 be better than 2+2=0, or declaring yourself as an evolutionist but find evolution no better than any Indian tale about creation, etc. I suspect you are more of an agnostic, then. Again, thanks for your interest on the topic. I see it tragic though, that more and more Americans (I assume you are one) have lost the sight of what exactly brought the prosperity of this country and what is it that it is reversing the trend lately. I really love USA as much as I do my own country and I am sad to see it drifting from the good course. My best wishes, Glen, Ivan "...know the truth, and the truth will set you free" - Jesus ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 19:04:22 -0700 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Ivan Grozdanov Subject: Re: Democracy (im)possible? X-To: Mentor Cana In-Reply-To: <01HJY1PT0FLE9I54P9@asu.edu> Dear Mentor, Thank you for your interest in my communication. Let me add some more information and comments. I happen to live in a district (Gazi Baba, Skopje) where 90% are Muslims. I've lived with them for 35 years now and I do not hate any of them, despite the fact that the local Hodza makes me wake up every morning at 4:30 by his extreemly loud chanting (amplifiers used). And the mosque is just 50 yards away from my home. I also read the Qur'an (Arabic-Croation version). So, forget about western propaganda in my views. Everything is firsthand. Now, I know that Qur'an contains much positive teaching - after all, Qur'an has used much from the Bible which I believe, and which was completed about five centuries before the Qur'an was composed. But in my communication I was not talkin theology (otherwise I'd be glad to show you the superiority of the Bible over Qur'an and of the Biblical moral standards over the Islamic ones). When I speak about Islam in relation to democracy and prosperity, I speak what I observe. What you said in your response sounds more like propaganda than facts. You failed to point out an Islamic country which is superior in democracy and progress to those where Protestantism counts (USA, Canada, Sweden, Holland, etc.) And Islam has been around much longer then Protestantism. You also failled to prove that education is better in the Islamic countries, and not only by your personal example: I wonder why you did not enroll at the University of Islamabad? You can hardly convince me that women are treated with better dignity among the Muslims in Macedonia, than they are among others. They still have to walk three steps behind their husbands, they are still protected by 3 m high walls, they are still not allowed to be educated properly, they could attend only two of the 15 mosques in Skopje - never at the same level with men, but behind, on a balcony - though in practice no women are allowed to attend (have you ever been inside a Christian church - you'd be surprised to see more women than men! Remember, I live there, it has nothing to do with western propaganda. As far as Muslims not forcing the Christians to change their religion during the Ottoman Empire, I have different information than yours, and not only for Bosnia. As far as manyyy churches being built during the Ottoman Empire, can you give me some exaples for Skopje, with more than 15 mosques and only one church (Sv. Spas on Kale) the size of a living room and, of course, underground, as ordered by the authorities, from that period? And if you dare mention any which are built high in the mountins, would you please explain just why were they built on those hardly accessible places? To the best of my knowledge, the churces built in the cities were erected either before the Ottoman Empire or towards its downfall in the 19th or 20th century. On a more general level, if Islam was so progressive as you claim, then the heritage left to the world by the Ottoman Empire should exceed those of the other Empires. I know that we got phylosoph and ancient literature from the ancient Greek, Roman Law, art and architecture from the Roman Empire, beautiful classic music, universities, libraries, theatres from the Austro-Hungarian Empire, but you would need to remind me of the heritage we got from the Ottomans. Any schools, libraries, etc., in Macedonia or the Balkans? As far as I know, not until the Protestant missionaries started some schools in Bitola, Solun, Sofia... Maybe you know what I don't know. As far as Islam being as innocent to terrorism as you picture it, it is pretty hard to overlook the hundreds of bloodsheds in the name of Alah, anywhere between the slaughter of sportists at the Olympic games in Munchen and blasted airplanes, to the blasted bussses, not only in Israel, but also in Egypt (targets: elderly tourists from Christian countries), Algeria - including two victims from Yugoslavia... And do not forget thousands of young victims crossing mine-fields in the Iran-Iraq war, all in the name of Alah and Islam... So, the least i expected from you, Mentor, was to be more analytical and perhaps a bit more critical to the Islam as we see it today, not as you wish it were. Or, to say something similar to what I said about our Orthodox fellows: we need to help them see what christianity is all about... Otherwise, yes I agree that we should preserve what has been good in our relationship in Macedonia. I suspect, however, that at best, it may maintain a status-quo in Macedonia and not bring about democracy and prosperity. No one has still convinced me that Communism or Traditional Orthodoxism or Islam have ever produced democracy and prosperity. And each of these has been around for quite a while... Best wishes, Mentor, Ivan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 14:05:45 +1100 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Sacha Shopov Subject: Few Comments Zdravo MAKEDON readers, A few points I should mention. Since the creation of the group we have had incidents in the past and we have never removed anyone from the group. I do not intend to start either. People must be reminded that all discussions are archived and that their comments will remaind in the archives forever so to speak wisely and be accountable for their actions :-) that should be enough I think. Regards ANM and MAKEDON, people should also be reminded that the our MAKEDON mailgroup is not usenet, and hence cannot really handle too well large postings [400 lines long per message] which is common practice on usenet [alt.news.macedonia for instance], since the postings axdo not fill up people's mailboxeds there. Hence I ask that people wishing to engage in long threaded discussions pls HEAVILY TRIM the previousmsg, in at all you need it. Most people dont worry about quoting much ,if any.. and it works just as fine. I'd prefer it that way myself personally (lkike replying to someone's letter in a paper etc.). Im starting to get worried about the length of replies upon replies on MAKEDON. Apart from the above, I hope not to have to intervene further -- other than just posting this message now. Less work for me also :-) Ultimately the users of the group control how the group is run. So far, so good.. I've really enjoyed following the discussions -- even tho at times I have been idle and quite and in lurk mode.. I'm sure many othes have also likewise learnt a bit as well. pozdrav, sachz MAKEDON/MAKNWS Coord. -- Sacha A. Shopov Sydney, Australia shopo-sa@eelab.su.oz.au | sshopov@extro.ucc.su.oz.au == All I only want is to Rule the World == ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 23:38:51 -0600 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: George Mitrevski Subject: Religion and politics X-To: Ivan Grozdanov In-Reply-To: <9411280204.AA14175@mail.auburn.edu> Ivan and Mentor, Glad to see this new thread on the list. One of my favorite topic, something that I discuss in my courses on "Great Books" at Auburn university. Very difficult to discuss because we loose perspective, and we are so emotionally involved in the subject. I'd like to point out that in your discussions of the various religions you need to keep in mind that religion is constituted by it's history, it's teaching, and your personal experiences. What the Bible, Quran, etc. say is one thing, what believers do is another. Asking which is the best, is like asking which father is the best. It's a question that can be asked within one religion, not across relitigions. After you have enumerated all the good things and the bad things about each religion, than how do you weigh them. Also, religions exist diachronically (over a period of time) and synchronically (at a specific period in the past or present). Don't forget the various sects within sects, within sects that have evolved over a period of time. Here are few general comments on the previous postings: I believe the discussion started with the suggestion that democracy is somehow associated with religious experience, and that certain religions are anti-democratic. I agree with this, but I'm yet to be convinced that democracy of itself is a good thing. Democracy in the absence of a "democratic" cultural experience is useless. I'm also not convinced that the absence of political democracy of its own is a bad thing. I question that muslim woman walking ten feet behind her husband, locked up behind walls is less happy than a typical western woman in a democratic country. Every one of my last four dates has told me that she is in therapy, some of them can't remember for how many years. To study the impact of religion on history, culture, society, etc., you really have to do it as an outsider, which s very hard to do. By an outsider I mean one who is not emotionally involved in the religious experience. Otherwise, the discussions begins and ends with "Mine is better than yours, so there!!!" Regarding the impact of Islam on western culture, had it not been for their scholars, ancient Greek culture would have been lost to us forever. For Islam, separation of religion from government is ludicrous. They are one! Regarding the Protestants, well, I live in Alabama, the heart of the Bible belt! Not a semester goes by without at least one student coming into my office trying to convert me. These are very nice, very kind, polite, generous people. But you have to search to the ends of the earth to find more boring people. As characters, they are basically carbon copies of each other. You can talk to 20 different people, and at the end you realize that they all say one and the same thing. This type of culture evolved through the religious experiences of the people. Identity in belief and behavior is of primary concern to the people here. Ah! Orthodoxy! There is strange religion. One thing is for sure: democracy and Orthodoxy are definitely incompatible. Unlike Protestantism, and more like Islam, Orthodoxy is more of a cultural experience than a religious experience. And it's specifically a Slav experience. Even when non-slavs convert to Orthodoxy (and I know many of them), it's really not the same thing. It's like when a non-macedonian learns some of our dances. He can be an expert, but when you look at him you can tell that there is something missing, that he is not doing it right. Of all the major religions, Orthodoxy is the only one that is a communal religion. The concept of a "personal" relationship with God is nonsense from the Orthodox perspective. To be an Orthodox believer means to be a member of an Orthodox community of believers. That's why we have so many communal religious celebrations. The priest cannot say a service in church unless there is at least one participant. Just like you can't separate religion from government in Islam, in Orthodoxy you can't separate religion from culture. As a Protestant or a Catholic you really feel at home in any church of that religion anywhere in the world. While you share the same religious experience with other parishioners, you don't have to share the same cultural experience. Not so for Orthodoxy. This is all generally speaking, of course. Because of our strong tie to our culture the Renaissance skipped us and the rest of the Orthodox Slavs. True, we are backward compared to other western countries. True, we can't move forward for as long as we continue this cultural experience. Yes, the religion is part of it. Converting seems to be an easy answer, but that implies giving up on the cultural heritage. While this may be easy for individuals to do, the culture of a nation evolves and changes very slowly. The problem is, I guess, we want to have our cake and eat it too. We want prosperity, but we also don't want to give up the values we have grown up with and the traditions that we have practiced for so long. For democracy to work (as a political system only) it requires a certain mindset. Like religion, however, democracy differs when you compare the ideal with the practice. Political democracy does not guarantee "a good life". In fact, in certain cultures, such as many Islamic cultures, democracy can be quite destructive to a culture. To say that for Macedonia to survive as a democratic country it needs to change it's religion is a very simplistic view of the interaction of political and cultural forces. What is interesting, though, is that our brothers in the rest of the Slavic world are experiencing these same problems. Perhaps in a century or so the Slavs can develop a new "flavor" of democracy, one that is more favorable to it's unique cultural experiences. Keep in mind that by their nature democracy, capitalism and Protestantism are destructive to culture because culture resists change. That's all the rambling I'm going to do for now. Anyone interested in learning more about Orthodoxy as an experience should read _The Orthodox Church_ by Timothy Ware. It's published by Penguin. Cheap. I use it in my courses. Also, lot more books, icons, church music available from St. Vladimir Seminary in New York. ********************************************************************* Dr. George Mitrevski office: (205) 844-6376 Department of Foreign Languages fax: (205) 844-2378 8030 Haley Center home: (205) 887-2917 Auburn University, AL 36849-5204 e-mail: mitrege@mail.auburn.edu ********************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 00:59:01 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: "Vladimir M. Ognenovski" Subject: Re: Democracy (im)possible? In-Reply-To: <199411280205.VAA09069@truelies.rs.itd.umich.edu> Ivan, I have been reading your commentaries with interest. I grew up in post WWII Macedonia without any strong religious background. I grew up with the morals that my family dictated.You know, as well as I, that religious moral was not well tolerated during the communist regime. However that's not to say that people had no moral values.The religion is not sine qua non for moral values. I am afraid that your protestant/Christian views may be nearsighted. Your glorified Western Civilization(protestants/christians included) has given humanity as much glory as misery.It wiped out a whole civilization on the western hemisphere and colonized half the world for centuries(not unlike the Ottomans).The contribution of the Western Civilization to humanity is undeniable, but bear in mind that their foundation were the Roman, Greek,Egyptian ... cultures, all very unchristian. With respect to your bashing of Islamic culture, I suggest you look up in your local library: Avicena, Alladin,Scheherazade, and arabic numbers, to name a few of their contributions. Pozdrav, Vlatko ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 01:41:09 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Democracy (im)possible? If you'll re-read Luther's "Reden an die deutsche Edelheit" you'll see how he urged the Protestant princes of the German principalities to put the peasants of the Rhineland to the sword for daring to demand a better life. Much of the Lutheran theology demands almost unconditional acceptance of the rules of "The Powers That Be" (from St. Paul). It is this tragic and to my mind craven obsequiousness of the Evan- gelical churches in Germany together with the equally craven obsequiousness of the Catholic churches there which aided and abetted Hitler's rise and the Kaiser's willingness to go to war in August 1914. I am *not* saying the Christian churches or the Evangelic (Lutheran) Church were the *only* support for Prussian-German pro-war policy in WWI & WWII, but I do find it ironic that Niebuhr's "Children of Light" should have been so unwilling to oppose either von Schlieffen & the Kaiser in WWI or Hitler and the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht in WWII. As to the Muslims, you seem to cite only the Islamic fanatics for- getting what Lessing's "Nathan der Weise" taught. What of the vast majority of Muslims or Orthodox people who try to live by their prophets and their scriptures? Saddam and the Iranian fanatics do not represent Islam any more than Hammas and Hezbollah do! And though I am not as familiar with Orthodox Christianity as I should be, I can't believe its main tenets are so contrary to what Christ taught: "Lovest thou me, Peter? Then feed my sheep". Yet the Serbian Orthodox Church seems to see nothing wrong with the behavior of its communicants in Bosnia where 250,000 helpless people have been and are being slaughtered in the name of Greater Serbia and its Ortho- dox Christian Church. Can we Protestants then wade through oceans of blood and hate to achieve our "City on a Hill"? I have lived through six wars in my country WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Dominican Republic, Panama and the Gulf War. I want a UN standby military force and an end to the psychotic mass murder of Bosnia, Rwanda, the Sudan. Since I am a Protestant I must "protest" against these bestiali- ties and I believe that Orthodox, Jewish, and Muslim men and women of good will join me. Selah! -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 02:16:21 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Democracy (im)possible? I like this list! Vlatko spoke for me! In 1642 my Yankee ancestors practically exterminated the Whampanoug Indians in "The Great Swamp Fight" here in Rhode Island despite Roger Williams' earlier tolerance and affection for them. To nail down my point Mahatma Gandhi was asked, "What do you think of Western culture, Mahatma?" He replied, "I think it would be a good idea"! The idea that Protestant culture is inherently superior to Orthodox or Islamic culture strikes me as very dubious unless one specifies *exactly* what elements of culture one is discussing. Even then because each religous tradition seems to emphasize differnt elements of the common human experience, to compare them in terms of *superiority* vs. *inferiority* seems a bit puerile! -- Glen D. Camp Professor of Political Science Bryant College 401-232-6246 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 02:07:48 -0500 Reply-To: Macedonian Discussion List Sender: Macedonian Discussion List From: Glen Camp Subject: Re: Religion and politics Dear George, I am surprised and delighted at how you've survived intellectually active and intact after being accosted by Alabama funda- mentalist Protestants. I was converted to fundamentalist Protestantism in Harlan Country, Kentucky, and I survived so I guess it's quite possible. However, to argue that Democracy and Protestantism are destructive of culture I think goes a bit too far. Wasn't it Max Weber who insisted that Protestantism was an essential element in the rise of capitalism and a culture of democracy? (Die Protestantische Ethik und der Geist des Kapitalismus) I wonder what Weber would say about the rise of the Five Tigers and esp. Japan under Shinto? I think it has more to do with the *specific definition* of the individual's relation to the group, i.e., the political culture of the society and whether it fosters technological dif- fusion and increased sophistication. I am very interested in how Russia and the Slavic countries (Czech) and (Slovak) and (Slovenia) vary in these measures of technological diffusion and speed of innovation. Countries under former Stalinist rule have a tough time adjusting to the hurley burley of modern capitalism since they are used to having their lives dictated to them by government authorit